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Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:11:34 AM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		Hey Gang,

I have encountered this twice now, since I have been on collarme.com.   I'm looking for any insight or experiences people have had with this problem.

Twice now, I have became involved with submissives and as things became more serious and over time, lies started slowly or suddenly popped up. 

Some of these lies were over the stupidist things ever, and others were major.  Now, if these had been complete strangers, I might not have gave a shit and simply wrote them off within 2.5 seconds flat.  However, I am the kind of guy that gives somebody a chance to come clean with me.   Let them explain their reasoning behind their lies.

What distrubs me is a "Common" excuse that both these sub/slave types used.  That they got burned a 1,000 times over by liars, and game players online themselves.  Personally, I feel this is just a poor excuse for bad behavior on their part.   It does concern me, that perhaps this is a trend or line of thinking that can evol over time.

The recent one, even finally admitted she was not looking for a relationship where communication and honesty were important.  She was just looking to have a relationship without those things.  She basically wants to hide behind her own protective walls.  She's been burned and hurt too many times.  She's not changing her ways any time soon either.   Wow, not what I expect, desire or want from somebody.   Her excuse was that if we were together in the real time, things would be different.   Personally, while I'm exploring something long distance with somebody, I want to get to know as best I can, before moving things into real time.   It appears, that she was playing games under the pretense that I myself might be playing games with her.

The one before this, she was pretending she had no kids.  Then one day, she let it slip out in conversation.   She actually threw the phone and was mad at herself.  Basically, she had made a personal vow to keep this a secret because...  A few dishonest Dom/Masters, used her kid as a sort of sales pitch to get her into a relationship.  Basically, made promises about everything they would do for her kid and etc...  In short, she realized that these guys had took some personal information and manipulated it against her.  She had actually went to live with one of these guys and he was extremely abusive.  She was one of those sub/slaves that disappears in the middle of night, taking what she can quickly gather up.  She needed to get her and her kid out of there.  

So, with all this said.   Both women have had bad experiences with Domly/Master playing games, lieing and manipulating them.

Both cases, they swore up and down they valued and were seeking honesty.  It appears they could not give the very thing they are looking for.

For sub/slaves out there, have you ever had any problems in being truthful for the any similar reasons?  What kind of problems did it cause for you?  Do you feel you did the right thing? 

For Dom/mes out there, have you encountered similar experiences?  How did you deal with it?  Were you able to work past this with any sub/slaves or did you simply write them off?   Were you able to confront them and hear similar excuses before packing it in?




 
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:14:11 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Drama attracts drama.  People who continue to get involved with unstable relationships, people who continue to find themselves "once again in a bad spot" over and over again throughout several years tend to simply either not know HOW to function any other way, or are too addicted to the attention and excitement that drama causes to change.

YOU my friend simply need to work on your initial filters to spot the trends quicker.  And not make commitments so soon.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:24:24 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Well, the first scenario sounds like someone too wrapped up in self-pity and melodrama.  I'd be shutting the door on that one, and let her play her games with someone else.  Come on...."I'm looking for a relationship without honestly and communication because I just want to hide behind my walls"....oh poor her. 

The second one....sounds rather melodramatic, too.  (I'm seeing a pattern.....)  When you say "pretended she had no kids", did she actually deny having them, or just not mention having them?  I mean, I can see keeping the UM issue low-key in any new relationship, until you see where it's going.  But if she actually came right out and said she had no kids, and then later on, oops, slipped....oh, now I'll throw the phone across the room so he'll see how upset I am and comfort me...me....me....me....me...that's what I see here.   Both these sound like passive attention-seekers. 

I don't hear any decent reasons for melodrama, only lame excuses.  You seem to have a penchant for attracting the melodramatic ones.  Might be bad luck of the draw, or might be something you do to attract them. 

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:28:03 AM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Drama attracts drama.  People who continue to get involved with unstable relationships, people who continue to find themselves "once again in a bad spot" over and over again throughout several years tend to simply either not know HOW to function any other way, or are too addicted to the attention and excitement that drama causes to change.

YOU my friend simply need to work on your initial filters to spot the trends quicker.  And not make commitments so soon.


I totally agree with you about my initial filters and being able to spot trends quicker.  I talked for about 30 minutes with the last one yesterday.  This was after a couple of weeks passed by.  The cycle of excuses and trying to wiggle out of responsibility for her actions was unbelieveble.  I'm simply taking the good from these experiences, it's opened my eyes a little more. 

What kills me about both these situations, is that it's really self defeating behavior. It's also self defeating for me to get tangled up with anybody with these mindsets as well.   Right now, I'm just looking for a little more insight to this mindset, and any similar experiences others have gone through.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:35:27 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what the problem is.  You encountered a couple of subs who preferred game playing over a relationship.  Sad to say, they are out there, and some of them can be manipulative little shits; in this regard, they are no different from some of the doms out there.

They choose the game playing.  It strikes me as a foolish choice, but it is their choice to make.  Your choice is whether or not you wish to play their game.


_____________________________



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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:36:24 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		I particularly like the way LA put it.

And working on those areas doesn't imply that you did anything wrong.
I feel as though some dominant persons have an over active 'protector instinct' that in some ways, renders them a softer touch. And some submissive persons have a preternatural ability to sense and even exploit that.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:38:37 AM   
VNDom


Posts: 2
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

I totally agree with you about my initial filters and being able to spot trends quicker.  I talked for about 30 minutes with the last one yesterday.  This was after a couple of weeks passed by.  The cycle of excuses and trying to wiggle out of responsibility for her actions was unbelieveble.  I'm simply taking the good from these experiences, it's opened my eyes a little more. 

What kills me about both these situations, is that it's really self defeating behavior. It's also self defeating for me to get tangled up with anybody with these mindsets as well.   Right now, I'm just looking for a little more insight to this mindset, and any similar experiences others have gone through.


I guess the question I have is... Why are you working so hard to keep relationships going with these people who have obviously not shown you even a modicum of the respect you feel you deserve?

Lack of honesty is a deal breaker for me.  And "lack of honesty" is defined as "a deliberate statement meant to deceive." In other words, a lie. 

I guess I don't understand why your interested in persuing these relationships any further. If I'm mistaken, forgive the miseading of the situation.

Good luck.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:43:41 AM   
slaveish


Posts: 1086
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		With a really adept wall-builder, Whiplash, you may have no outward signs of anything amiss until it's ~really~ amiss. I am the queen of wall-building, which was based on past experiences, and the past in general. I felt the need to hide behind these walls so as to not get hurt. As I got into therapy, I realized my own filters were broken (I still have a difficult time recognizing who is safe to trust and who is not) and it is something I consciously work to overcome.

Unless the person in question does some serious work on herself, there is nothing you can do and no real signs you can be aware of except to keep your eyes open, watch for little inconsistencies, work with her if she seems to be trying to keep her walls intact, and know when to say when. (As you realize, it can be an exhausting exercise in futility trying to cope.)

_____________________________

You only lose what you cling to. ~~Gautama Sidharta

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. ~~Mother Teresa

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:46:40 AM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes
....
I don't hear any decent reasons for melodrama, only lame excuses.  You seem to have a penchant for attracting the melodramatic ones.  Might be bad luck of the draw, or might be something you do to attract them. 


Both cases, they responded to my profile.  Engaged me first. LOL...  After I'd say a couple of months of IM's, emails and talking voice.  After a couple months, the red flags were clear and obvious lies were revealed.  

Both of these women were good at the Art of bullshit.  My mind likes to explore the reasons why though.  I'm a curious sort of guy, Yes I love to solve a good mystery.  You are right about decent reasons, there are no decent reasons.  However, there is a similar twisted form of reasoning going on.   It's not pretty either.  I actually expressed deep concerned for the last one's future if she keeps it up too.  It was a balanced conversation on my part, to not blow up and be mad.  To express how it affected me, that I'm a human being, and also have and show concern for another person at the same time.

They seem to be caught up in a game, that they can not ever win, and are repeating the process.

Now, I'm not a complete freak magnet... I've actually met some really wonderful people from this site.  I just to have a knack for buying into some of the wonderul bullshit I've heard twice now.  It's a bit of bitch, when two people can tie things up for 6-8 months between them both.  There are few subs I IM and talk with on a regular basis, on a more of a friendship level.  There's not a lot of wierd trust issues or bullshit going on either.

I'm just free of the drama (as LA put it) now, life is a little more peaceful.  thank god. 

(in reply to windchymes)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:48:23 AM   
teamnoir


Posts: 226
Joined: 4/5/2005
From: San Francisco Bay Area California
Status: offline 		No, I have not had the sort of experiences you describe. I'm not sure why.

Your second example makes some sense to me. I can see how she might have come to the conclusion that lying was a better plan. I doubt that it will be a better plan for her in the long run, but I suspect that she'll need to come to that conclusion on her own.

Your first example seems more complex. Somehow I doubt that she said exactly the words you relay. It seems more likely to me that your definition of honesty and her definition of honesty simply differed. I don't think that necessarily makes her defective. But I wasn't there and I'm not you, so I'm just guessing and reading between the lines of what you've written.

I'm sorry things are seeming difficult for you. I wish I had a magic panacea for such problems.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:49:10 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		As I've often noted- the "wall builders" tend to simply blind themselves.  They are so scared and focus so much on building some walls, that they don't realize that they are actually turning on big blaring neon lights to OTHER loser predators who can see what an obvious sign of insecurity it is- and they simply dig UNDER the walls.  Because wall-builders tend to be the ones who crave and really WANT to open and feel secure more than anyone.

Or decent types/white knights who really DO want to help, but are dealing with such a neurotic wall builder that they self-sabotage the whole thing.

Then, the cycle repeats itself...

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slaveish)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:51:57 AM   
SmokingGun82


Posts: 575
Joined: 6/19/2004
Status: offline 		I'm going to have to agree with VNDom. It's not an accident to conceal the fact you have a child, especially if asked point-blank. And of course, people who try to use  "comfort me I'm mad at myself" when they're trapped in a lie annoy me to no end.

As something of a drama/insanity magnet myself, I suggest you take a good, long, hard look at what it is the bad experiences have in common. Maybe all the people you've had drama with share some common trait, and maybe you can learn to seek that trait out and avoid it, or learn to deal with it in a more acceptable (to you) manner. I was able to find a common thread among all the dramatic relationships I've had, and it seems to have helped a good deal.

I've also found just admitting that I tend to end up in dramatic/insane situations has helped me immeasurably. Learning to laugh at myself and my mistakes is probably the best skill I've managed to pick up. Of course, being open about my (apparent) attraction to people who end up being out of there mind makes the girl I'm currently interested in question her own sanity... so your mileage may vary.

Be up front, as well. Tell anyone new "Hey, I've got a bad history with (INSERT)." If they know you've been burned by lies, or that honesty is extremely important to you, they might be a little more mindful of what they say.

Just my couple pennies.


_____________________________

It frightens me, the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
- Bob Dylan

Proper capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my Uncle Jack off a horse" and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse."

(in reply to VNDom)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:52:43 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: teamnoir
No, I have not had the sort of experiences you describe. I'm not sure why.

To elborate on my previous points, I think a lot of them just don't GET it.  They have these fantasies, they love these ideas, they get really excited about it all.

But they don't really get that this is a REAL RELATIONSHIP and what that requires.  They just somehow get stuck in this fantasy/play place and don't realize that others who come into their circle aren't in that same place with them.  When it doesn't work out- they don't look inside to think that maybe they need to take a step out and deal with the hard stuff, they tend to draw even deeper inside to seek security in the fantasy, or leap to the next available distraction.

They aren't bad people generally, though they often have bad habits and personality problems.  They just don't GET it yet. 

It's the boring secure steady ones who really make it in the long term. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to teamnoir)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:53:53 AM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I particularly like the way LA put it.

And working on those areas doesn't imply that you did anything wrong.
I feel as though some dominant persons have an over active 'protector instinct' that in some ways, renders them a softer touch. And some submissive persons have a preternatural ability to sense and even exploit that.


I'm going to admit to this one,  the 'protector instinct' was exploited this last time. Now, my mindset is somewhat readjusted.

Edited, to elaborate on this more.  Basically, she lied about a few bad things going on, when reality some other bad thing was going on.   If that makes sense, the 1/2 truth was that yes, she was going through something bad that day.  However, what she was telling me was not what really what was going on.  A kind of twisted 1/2 truth.



< Message edited by WhiplashSmile -- 8/17/2007 12:00:42 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 11:55:42 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes
....
I don't hear any decent reasons for melodrama, only lame excuses.  You seem to have a penchant for attracting the melodramatic ones.  Might be bad luck of the draw, or might be something you do to attract them. 


Both cases, they responded to my profile.  Engaged me first. LOL...  After I'd say a couple of months of IM's, emails and talking voice.  After a couple months, the red flags were clear and obvious lies were revealed.  

Both of these women were good at the Art of bullshit.  My mind likes to explore the reasons why though.  I'm a curious sort of guy, Yes I love to solve a good mystery.  You are right about decent reasons, there are no decent reasons.  However, there is a similar twisted form of reasoning going on.   It's not pretty either.  I actually expressed deep concerned for the last one's future if she keeps it up too.  It was a balanced conversation on my part, to not blow up and be mad.  To express how it affected me, that I'm a human being, and also have and show concern for another person at the same time.

They seem to be caught up in a game, that they can not ever win, and are repeating the process.

Now, I'm not a complete freak magnet... I've actually met some really wonderful people from this site.  I just to have a knack for buying into some of the wonderul bullshit I've heard twice now.  It's a bit of bitch, when two people can tie things up for 6-8 months between them both.  There are few subs I IM and talk with on a regular basis, on a more of a friendship level.  There's not a lot of wierd trust issues or bullshit going on either.

I'm just free of the drama (as LA put it) now, life is a little more peaceful.  thank god. 



Yeah, sometimes it takes a couple months for the red flags to fly, lol   People are usually on their best behavior until they start to feel comfortable, then their true colors show.  But you talk about "buying bullshit"....that's why I tend to be a bit jaded when I hear what starts to smell suspiciously of BS.  As life goes on, you tend to develop a more sensitive nose to it.  When things start to sound almost too good, that's when you take a step back and try to examine it from an objective standpoint rather that with your emotions. 

But, there are never guarantees.  There are a lot of weird people out there, lol. 

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 12:06:30 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

As I've often noted- the "wall builders" tend to simply blind themselves.  They are so scared and focus so much on building some walls, that they don't realize that they are actually turning on big blaring neon lights to OTHER loser predators who can see what an obvious sign of insecurity it is- and they simply dig UNDER the walls.  Because wall-builders tend to be the ones who crave and really WANT to open and feel secure more than anyone.

Or decent types/white knights who really DO want to help, but are dealing with such a neurotic wall builder that they self-sabotage the whole thing.

Then, the cycle repeats itself...


Yesterday on the phone, I voiced this concern to her.  That she needed to be more open and honest and communicate with the next person in her life.   This is the point in the conversation, where she told me she was not wanting this.  Point blank admitted this to me.   This is where I got into what's the point to having a relationship with somebody without these things. 

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 12:19:30 PM   
cumulus


Posts: 49
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline 		You know, I'm actually sensing that none of this really has anything to do with 'being burned a thousand times'. Sounds more like someone's trying to play you.
 
Any conversations about how 'the rent is due and I don't think I'll be able to make it' or any other looming financial hardship come up?


_____________________________

Regards,
Cumulus

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 12:32:54 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveish

With a really adept wall-builder, Whiplash, you may have no outward signs of anything amiss until it's ~really~ amiss. I am the queen of wall-building, which was based on past experiences, and the past in general. I felt the need to hide behind these walls so as to not get hurt. As I got into therapy, I realized my own filters were broken (I still have a difficult time recognizing who is safe to trust and who is not) and it is something I consciously work to overcome.

Unless the person in question does some serious work on herself, there is nothing you can do and no real signs you can be aware of except to keep your eyes open, watch for little inconsistencies, work with her if she seems to be trying to keep her walls intact, and know when to say when. (As you realize, it can be an exhausting exercise in futility trying to cope.)


The downside is that she started to go to therapy, and pulled out from it.  She also was supposed to go to group sessions for her eating disorder was well,  she only went to one.  Basically, she feels it all is a waste of time and she's not gonna do it.  She said it was of no concern to me since her and I are not together. LOL.  I came back with it does not change the fact she still needs these things, regardless if we are together or not.  

Personally, I'd probally need my own therapy to build coping skills to deal with this myself.  It is a rather exhausting excercise, you are right about this.  She is rather walled in, she'll maintain a lie to the end, when it's obvious she's busted.  Then the truth about it being a lie is admitted along with some excuse attached to it.   The focus of these excuses deal with her own trust issues in others.  I don't know how deep one needs to dig for the truth, but I know it's taxing for me to dig any deeper.   I'm not a therapist.

She does not appear to show remorse for her own actions, in the middle of some of her excuses yesterday.  I stopped her, and expressed how it made me feel.  That she was ingoring how her lies impacted or effected me.   That she was dealing with another human being, that has and feels all the same emotions she does.   I went down through a small list of emotions.  There was one she said she does not feel and that is hurt.  LOL..  Basically, I stumbled upon something in conversation with her at that point.  Had to call bullshit on that one.  I did not get into her reasoning too deep, she said she had been hurt some many times that she's numb to it now.   Again, she focused upon being burned in her past.   I said, something to the effect, I'm sorry so many people hurt her like that, but that was them and not me.  I was not letting her off the hook easy yesterday with her excuses.  
  

(in reply to slaveish)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 12:41:26 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		As has been pointed out in other threads, I am not sure there is a difference between behavior like that here. or in the nilla world. There is always going to be a percentage of people who are going to lie either out right or by omission

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Submissives burned by lies and games. - 8/17/2007 12:57:26 PM   
SirEbonyPhoenix


Posts: 195
Joined: 8/29/2006
From: My realm in Central Indiana (you guess where :P)
Status: offline 		I think Lucky makes a valid point when she states in her quote, "Find stable partners, not a stable of partners." What I am discovering in my own journey is that the reason why some "submissives" tend to embellish the truth may be that they are emotionally, and in some cases, mentally unstable. I'm not saying all of them are, but if they can't be honest and truthful from the word go, then they are wasting not only my time, but theirs as well. After all, Doms have feelings too.

_____________________________

"If it takes one to know one, then you must be one."

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 20
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