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ORIGINAL: Cedwen
It takes time to train a sub properly Can take a year or more ?

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
An example scenario would be someone forgetting to fold the socks for the sock drawer.

A corrective punishment would be making them fold and refold the socks several times.

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ORIGINAL: Cedwen

It takes time to train a sub properly Can take a year or more ? Trust is as portent as love in a fulltime Domme sub realationship. A contract or an agreement that changes and devlop over time between the Domme and the sub. BUT as the training progresses so does the intensity of the disipline. My sub trusted me as well as loved me. !8 months into the rlationship. My sub trusted me to waive the contract describing the punishment and its limits. Completely trusting me now. There is a no mercy agreement. I decide by observation and my know what my sub can take He is always unsure Plus the amount he can take without permanent damage varies. At this stage in our relationship when sub thinks he can take no more. I go beyond that limit Stopping when I deem he has had enough. But once I stop or finnish despite the yelling and screaming for me to stop. Momnts after I am finnished he begs for more. But I know what the real limit is He does not To go futher would be beyond  the bounds of submission
Ms Cedwen

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
An example scenario would be someone forgetting to fold the socks for the sock drawer.

A corrective punishment would be making them fold and refold the socks several times.

Actually, this could be either corrective or punitive.

If you made them do it 100 times or more, that's probably more of a punitive situation.

My question was geared towards Padraig's distinction between the corrective and punitive scenarios, and whether there was an intrinsic difference beyond the motivation.

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ORIGINAL: Stephann

My strong caution against 'punitive' punishment, draws from the emotional damage it can cause. It's setting a combative stage, making it 'you vs your sub'. I can't think of anyone with more power to destroy another person emotionally, than a dominant can to their submissive.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The concept of punishment is necessary in a TPE dynamic, however.  Punishment is the negative consequence that is laid down for non-compliance with whatever rules are established by the dominant.  Punishment is part of what makes that dynamic work by setting up the basic exchange of power.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

In the definition presented by behavorial science and operant conditioning, punishment is negative reinforcement in which one uses a negative stimuli to reinforce a desired behavior.

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Just because the negative stimuli was X (an expression of disapointment) and not Y (corporeal punishment or a time-out) doesnt change the fact that it follows under the scope of the definition of punishment as used in behavior modifcaiton.

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ORIGINAL: Stephann

I'll only add that while there is value in a dominant expressing his feelings, I don't believe that applying punitive punishment (in this context) is ever healthy or wise.

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ORIGINAL: Padriag

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
An example scenario would be someone forgetting to fold the socks for the sock drawer.

A corrective punishment would be making them fold and refold the socks several times.

Actually, this could be either corrective or punitive.

If you made them do it 100 times or more, that's probably more of a punitive situation.

My question was geared towards Padraig's distinction between the corrective and punitive scenarios, and whether there was an intrinsic difference beyond the motivation.

And I wrote this detailed reply last night to that very question only to have my wireless connection go out due to the electrical storm and welll... I gave up and went to bed.  I'll try to recap what I had written.

I think the clearest distinction that can be seen is in the goals of either form of punishment.  Someone seeking punitive punishment is engaging in a form of revenge seeking behavior, they will not be satisfied until that results in the visible infliction of pain... whether that comes from inflicting visible pain, emotional pain, or pain resultant from the removal of various freedoms.  In short, punitive punishment is ultimately about hurting the other person.  Note that actually correcting the behavior that resulted in the punitive punishment is not a primary goal and may not be a goal at all.  This applies whether we are discussing BDSM scenarios or judicial systems worldwide.

Corrective punishment has as its primary goal correcting the original behavior, and it is not satisfied until that correction occurs.  Whether this involves pain or not is only relevant if the application of pain, the removal of freedoms, etc. is effective in causing the corrective change to occur.  In other words, corrective punishment can take many more forms because it does not seek to cause pain, and is thus not limited to methods that result in that.

As for motivations differing, punitive punishment satisfies the emotional drives we all have... the anger and/or hurt we may feel, the desire for revenge, a sense of balance being restored (because the other has suffered in some way similar to how we have suffered... thus making us "equal" again).  Corrective punishment is not interested in assuaging these emotional drives, its about changing an undesirable behavior so that it does not occur again.  That can be hard for some to accept.  Imagine a drunk driver who killed an entire school bus full of children, it would be very easy to imagine a huge public outcry for the guy to be lynched!  Not so easy to imagine the guy being sent to rehab and counseling for his drinking problem with his release being conditional on the correction of the behavior, but without any punitive measure.  In fact, were that to happen, many people would be very upset, particularly the parents of those children.  For them, they'd want blood... they'd want that sense of "balance" to be restored, to know and more importantly feel, that this person had in some way suffered as much as they.

Applying all this to this lifestyle it illustrates another reason why dominants need to be in control of themselves.  We all, as human beings, have that drive for revenge to some degree and this is magnified when we are angry.  A submissive does something that hurts or upsets us, there is a natural impulse to want to hurt them in return in order to restore that feeling of balance.  However, because we should not be seeking to harm those in our care, but we should be seeking to correct and improve, its important for us to keep any revenge seeking behavior in check.  Its important for us to use corrective measures rather than punitive measures.  In other words, as dominants we have to be in control of ourselves enough to let go of those raw emotional drives, and instead do what's best for the relationship.  For those of us who can and do, we earn the respect of submissives because of it, we earn their trust.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Within my M/s dynamic, Punishment is not a part of the dynamic. I do not apply penalty or retribution. I do however, apply a responsiblity for ones choices. That these choices will be either Positive or Negative consequences.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Within my M/s dynamic, Punishment is not a part of the dynamic.  I do not apply penalty or retribution.  I do however, apply a responsiblity for ones choices.  That these choices will be either Positive or Negative consequences.  Within my dynamics, I expect each person to make choices that is for the enhancement of the whole, positive consequences for the relationship.  However, choices do occur that result in negative consequences.  Instead of apply penalty or retribution,  Instead I seek to facilate learning and growth from what occurred to allow a change of choice/behavior in the future.  It is our mutual commitment to what I call a Power Enhancement Relationship that focuses us on our personal responsibilities to make choices that promote positive consequences for our relationship and avoid the negative consequences.

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ORIGINAL: Padriag

He could scream at her, cuss her, and in the process devalue her, verbally attack her, etc.  And while that would be an expression of his feelings (hurt and anger) it would also be destructive.  It would also be punitive punishment.  Its a form of punishment because his behavior would be an averse stimulus to her, that qualifies it as a punishment.  And because the behavior seeks to attack and harm her, that makes it punitive.  And as we've already discussed, that'd be a bad idea.

Option B would be to sit her down and talk to her.  Explain to her that what she did hurt him and why.  Explain why it displeased him, what was wrong about her behavior and what she should have done instead, what he expects her behavior to be.  Again, this still qualifies as punishment.  For those scratching their heads wondering why, its because his disappointment is still going to upset her... and that is still an averse stimulus which makes it a punishment.  But, in this case his behavior is aimed at correcting her behavior, establishing not only what she did wrong but what she should have done, what she should correct to.  That makes it corrective punishment.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Within my M/s dynamic, Punishment is not a part of the dynamic.  I do not apply penalty or retribution.  I do however, apply a responsiblity for ones choices.  That these choices will be either Positive or Negative consequences.  Within my dynamics, I expect each person to make choices that is for the enhancement of the whole, positive consequences for the relationship.  However, choices do occur that result in negative consequences.  Instead of apply penalty or retribution,  Instead I seek to facilate learning and growth from what occurred to allow a change of choice/behavior in the future.  It is our mutual commitment to what I call a Power Enhancement Relationship that focuses us on our personal responsibilities to make choices that promote positive consequences for our relationship and avoid the negative consequences.

This seems somewhat semantical to me in a sense, since the concepts of Punishment and Reward can be defined as Negative and Positive consequences.

For example, the penalty and retribution of receiving a speeding ticket.

One could view it in the light of "You have broken the law and now this is your pentalty. Pay up!"

Or...

One can view it in the light of "You have made a personal choice to break the law, endangering the lives of others with your reckless driving. This is your Negative Consequence for the action. Now please refrain from speeding so this Negative Consequence doesnt occur and you can enjoy the Positive Consequence of not having to pay tickets."

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   * Reinforcement is a consequence that causes a behavior to occur with greater frequency.
   * Punishment is a consequence that causes a behavior to occur with less frequency.
   * Extinction is the lack of any consequence following a response. When a response is inconsequential, producing neither favorable nor unfavorable consequences, it will occur with less frequency.