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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 2:43:36 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
No perceptional differences don't negate the basic conscept... it only reinforces that applying the concept is much more complicated than some would like. You can talk theories all you like. Label this and that.. but unless you can apply things and achieved desired results it just alot of theory.


Very true...and "talking theory" is what we've been doing throughout this discussion.



That's interesting and maybe true for you... however, my discussion has included application of my very relationships and not just a discussion of theory.

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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 2:54:31 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
People like Skinner's ideals because it fits so well into the D/s dynamic.


I find Skinner's work helpful to set a conceptual framework for cultivating those who would follow My leadership.  As behaviorial models go, I have found it to have excellent predictive and analytical value.



I personally found the application of a concept called ABC to have more application value.  It is actually rooted in the theories from Skinner.  I also found that the works of William T Powers "Making Sense of Behavior" in his book  to be of benefit that better explained the concept of Perceptual Control Theory (PCT)

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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 3:25:51 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
That's interesting and maybe true for you...


It's true for you, me, and everyone else on this thread.  This is a theoretical discussion by definition.


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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 3:46:10 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I'm not disagreeing with that. I dont agree with all of it and I can find a lot of holes in it on my own. He makes a point in the introduction of his book to mention there is many fascinating tangents that cant be explained.



In some cases.. it can't be explained by his theory... and that is largely due to the limitations of the theory itself.  I would be very careful of putting to much stock in this given theory.  To many jump on it because it really seems to fit into the idea of the Dominant's centre of the world ideal.  It a big trap in my opinion for those that follow that thinking... Dominants and submissives alike.  It's good.. it's just not that good.


I dont put a whole lot of stock in the total theory itself.

I would say the aspect of operant conditioning and his work on different forms of punishment provide a great base framework for behavior modification.

I still have a lot to learn and only have a general understanding, but what I have learned threw that particular aspect, I have been able to apply to more effective means.

Mainly because it provided me with a different way of thinking in regards to certain problems.

I now think more in terms of "Why are they doing this?", "What are they doing?", and "What can I do to make it stop?" as opposed to the punitive method of "There's something wrong, I need to create some kind of negative penalty, and this will automatically fix it"

As far as his entire theory on a whole, I would say that while it has provided me with a lot of food for thought about how I view the world and people. But...when I take his theory as a whole and begin to apply abstract thought to it that goes past what is simply written, there is a lot of questions left unanswered.

Its just too simple, too linear, too "X + Y = Z"

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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 4:36:52 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I personally found the application of a concept called ABC to have more application value.


ABC, provided you're talking about antecedent-behaviour-consequence, has not been my favoured approach. Before it was essentially prohibited in treating aspies et al, it did not show much promise in anything other than the behavioural equivalent of rote learning as far as I could tell. Care to outline why you prefer it?


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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 4:40:10 PM   
Aswad


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Status: offline 		MadRabbit,

My approach to these things came about through adapting from cognitive behavioural therapy, and it's been my experience that- while definitely useful- it's not strictly necessary to figure it out. Which is not to say that punishment will automatically resolve anything either; quite on the contrary. But if you look for information on the subitem of CBT called "behavioural activation", you should be able to modify that for context-free behavioural modification.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 5:38:45 PM   
WhiplashSmile


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Status: offline 		Stephann,  I really have enjoyed reading this thread.  Like everything else BDSM, people have found what does and does not work for them. 

From my own experinces, I have found each relationship to be rather unique and different.  Discipline and Punishment is one of the things that had varied. 

I have made this comment on the past, saw in in your opening post.  That sub/slaves will actually be hard on themselves or beating themselves up over their failure, or even when they falsely believe they have failed.

Now, here comes a tricky part, as I said I have found experiences different from relationship to relationship.   Meaning, a sub/slave that failed me is taking things hard.   Somebody wrote about the need to feel absolved of their own guilt or shame for failure.  Hence the burning desire for the sub/slave to seek punishment from the Dom.  Some sub/slaves have this craving for it, others do not.  Now, sure does the Dom provide physical punishment or not?  Some sub/slaves desire or want to experience corperal punishment, others do not.   All something to be figured out before entering into a BDSM lifestyle relationship.    I do feel it's important for two like minded people to be in a relationship together.   If both parties enjoy Corner Time, and physical punishment, so be it.

Regardless if physical punishment exists or not, communication is important in this process.  There are things, I would not want to punish somebody for, even more so, when they have done their best and failed.  Or if they failed on something I found no importance upon.  Now within scene play things might be a little different, but this is play punishment and not the real deal.

There's a world of difference between play punishment and real punishment.  A sub/slave can intentionally PLAY bratty, to recieve attention, and PLAY punishment.  So, one has to be able to know and understand when their sub/slave has Engaged in playfully acting bad, or if it's a serious offense.  Makes a big difference between Play Punishment or Real Punishment.





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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/26/2007 6:32:34 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I personally found the application of a concept called ABC to have more application value.


ABC, provided you're talking about antecedent-behaviour-consequence, has not been my favoured approach. Before it was essentially prohibited in treating aspies et al, it did not show much promise in anything other than the behavioural equivalent of rote learning as far as I could tell. Care to outline why you prefer it?



I find ABC to be a more practical than Skinner orginally presented. The ABC are useful in establishing the expectations within the dynamic and even what the consequence are for the given expectations... which is the antecedents... we then must Observe/demonstrate said behaviors.. and then expected consequences should be applied.  It is the application of the consequnces that provide the most benefit.  If the expectations of the consequences to given behavior is X.. but the consequence is actually Y... then you have signifcant issues.  Skinner's Concept mostly said that consequences will affect behavior.  But... the ABC increase that to indicate that our Expectations of given consequences to specific behaviors will affect the conditioning of future behaviors.  It is not just the consequences.. but what we expect for consequences.  It gives that the most effective consequences are Postive, Immediately applied and certain to occur from a given behavior or Negative, immediately applied and certain to occur from a given behavior.  It is noted that the application of consequences that are uncertain or lack immediate application after a given behavior will have less probability of conditioning a repeat of behavior.  in some cases.. it will actually result in behaviors a person does want.  We have heard it before... if the Dominant doesn't care... well the submissive is not likely to care either.  Conditioning a submissive to a given behavior is more than the just reinforcement and punishment.  it's the application of reinforcement and punishment as defined by skinner.

ABC is more about Application of a theory than an actual theory. and as such.. it to me is more useful than Skinner's theory in of itself.  However, there is other practical approaches to behavior modification that are based on other theories.  Theories such as Cognitive Behavior Theory (CBT) and Perceptional Control Theory(PCT) are two other major ones.  Again... talking theories are not much good unless you can take a given theory and apply it.  I use ABC.... in fact many people apply it without much thought.  However, their effectiveness is largely lost due to mixed messages in the application.   But.. I am also becoming much more aware of PCT as well as CBT.  It more a question of finding what works in a given situation.  People can talk theories.. but.. I much more interested in Application that get results.

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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/27/2007 2:15:54 AM   
Aswad


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Status: offline 		Same thing here, KnightofMists.

That is why I wondered about the reasons behind preferring it, thanks for explaining.

I get your preference for a behavioural modification approach that is already concretized and formalized. Cognitive science takes a lot of time to cover in enough depth to apply it, though reading the works of S. Pinker and J. Fodor may be enough to start out. In my case, I had other reasons for assimilating this knowledge in the first place, so the time factor wasn't an issue for me. But a big part of the problem with ABC, as I see it, is simply this: while perhaps adequately addressing rote conditioning, it fails to address how the deeper learning circuits of the brain are wired, and how this interacts with executive functions.

In any case, Skinner is not considered current in the cognitive sciences.

Behavioural modification kind of breaks down into the issue of whether you are looking for deep conditioning, rote conditioning, or executive level (conscious) control. The executive level is rather purely mediated by regular cognition, and can be addressed merely by making your expectations known. Rote conditioning is mediated by learned stimulus-response pairs, which is where ABC comes in as a kind of mix between rote conditioning and executive level control. It still leaves room for executive override and has various other issues that I assume you are more familiar with than me. Deep conditioning relies on training the circuits that underlie executive function, however.

A critical component of executive function is weighing relative salience/aversion and inhibiting impulses, a task in which the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is heavily involved, an area that is also thought to be critical to e.g. attention. This region is coupled to the ventral tegmentum and nucleus accumbens via the mesocortical pathway, a system that forms a circuit very similar to what is used in temporal difference learning for AI and expert systems, based on adapting prediction on the grounds of differences between what is expected and what is actually experienced. This circuit is believed to be the reason why addiction causes people to disregard more important stimuli in favour of their drug of choice, a form of chemical behavioural modification that is destructive in nature and operates rather far outside the regular operating range of that system.

However, that same system can be used in constructive behavioural modification, and I feel that the ABC approach fails to do this well. Cognitive Behavioural Therapy much more directly addresses this difference based learning, to the extent where it's effective in fully retraining responses like phobias, and it can successfully be applied to our kind of behavioural modification. As an aside, CBT has the distinction of being the only approach that has distinguished itself in placebo-controlled therapy, with all other forms being exactly as effective as talking to an average priest, doctor or what-have-you. In any case, CBT appears to have significant merit over ABC and other such approaches.

CBT, like ABC, is an approach, more than a theory (the theory would be evolutionary psychology, etc.), and less concerned with the whys and wherefores of how something came to be than with actually changing it into being what one wants it to be, although it does feature elements related to changing thought patterns as well. Combining it with some knowledge of temporal difference learning and evolutionary psychology may very well yield superior results.

Although I doubt we can recruit any subs/slaves for a comparative study.

Summa summarum, I prefer application to theory, but have found the latter a useful foundation for the former.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 8/27/2007 2:16:58 AM >

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/27/2007 6:56:48 AM   
sabba


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apiercedkitty
imho, if you didn't make it clear to Him that you weren't "ok," that falls in your lap. He can't be expected to be a mind reader - and communication is vital - especially when 1 feels the issue isn't over. i think it's well within your rights to talk to Him and make it clear that you think the punishment was too harsh. He should then either debate the issue or agree with you. If he thinks it was right, you have to decide if He's going to be too harsh for you in the future. If he agrees with you, the two of you have to decide how to avoid that in the future.


greetings apiercedkitty;

Wow....if sabba ever told her Master that she thought the punishment was too harsh.....she shudders to think what it would be after that...

well wishes,
sabba{CB}

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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/27/2007 11:56:03 AM   
ExSteelAgain


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Status: offline 		The one thing I don’t see emphasized enough in this fastidious discussion of punitive and corrective punishments is the effect of any punishment on prevention of undesired behavior. There is discussion of changing behavior after she has done something dreadful, but little talk of preventing her from doing bad things. Prevention would seem to be the superior aim unless we derive pleasure in the punishments whether we are Dom or the sub.

When we make overly optimistic claims about our punishments working we may be fooling ourselves. You have to look at results over long periods of time.

Does anyone really believe punishment works to deter undesired behavior? If so Doms would be holding themselves responsible for not dishing out the right punishment when the behavior occurred again. It is not a simple thing to change behavior and if it were, we would all be rich.

Prevention is going to come by a series of interventions which may be as simple as listening to her problems or making her smile when she is down. Don’t fool yourself again and think that she has problems causing her behavior that you have the ability to correctly diagnose and treat.

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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/27/2007 1:14:31 PM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		Hi ExSteel,

It would stand to reason that a Punishment element of a relationship would go hand in hand with 'training' (that is, a whoe approach towards the improvement and guidence a dominant offers a submissive throughout their relationship.)  Prevention certainly has a great deal of value; the scope of my initial essay was focused on punishment specifically because I was continuing a thought from another thread that lead up to it.

Regards,

Stephan


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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/27/2007 4:32:27 PM   
Padriag


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Status: offline 		Very good point ExSteel.  Like the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  The problem with prevention is knowing what to apply and when.  Theoretically if the right preventions could be put in place, there would be no need for speeding tickets because no one would ever speed... but when the "rubber hits the road" things don't always go the way we planned.

As often as questions about punishment come up, its seems clear there is a lot of  misunderstanding about it.  I would surmize there is probably even more about prevention.  Might make a worthy thread in and of itself.

B F Skinner has been mentioned a few times, and I find that a little ironic, because ultimately his work on social engineering became more about prevention than punishment.  He believed if we understood human behavior sufficiently, we could so carefully control it that punishment would be entirely unnecessary.  Needless to say, that understanding and that "technology of pyschology" he envisioned are still lacking.  But it occurs to me that a M/s relationship, with far fewer concerns about freewill, is a much more conducive environment to developing that very kind of control.  Indeed, if we could carefully prevent undesired behaviors while promoting those we desire, the question of punishment might well become moot.

Then again, I suppose that would lead to a debate about whether those slaves served out of desire (which requires freewill) or simply because we had so carefully engineered things that they no longer had any choice... Stepford slaves.  Always a catch to everything isn't there.

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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/27/2007 11:48:57 PM   
taintedgypsy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain
... Prevention is going to come by a series of interventions which may be as simple as listening to her problems or making her smile when she is down. Don’t fool yourself again and think that she has problems causing her behavior that you have the ability to correctly diagnose and treat.


I would like to wade in here ... I have reread this whole thread and have a couple of questions.
Many of you must have come accross newbies, unsure of limits and there place. I can only speak for myself but corporal punishment traumatised me, not the Dom's fault, if I did not know the effects my past would bring into play how the hell was he suppose to? The bahavioural problems I was having turned out to be part of the past that I have been "fixing" over the last few months and no ammount of punishment was going to correct this, if anything it has created more problems, again I stress that I do not hold anything against the Dominant concerned, his motives and care for me were not to be questioned ... it just went horribly wrong.

If a punishment goes horribly wrong, the damage is limited by the form it took. Do you not consider the risks with this type of corporal punishment to be high? If you are hurt and feel disrespected by the girl and you set punishment that suits the crime of a non-corporal type there is only so much damage that can be done ... resentment, loss of trust, yet how much damage can realistically be caused by time out, extra chores, loss of privilages ect. as opposed to a beating, corporal serious canning, &/or serious humilation?  To undo harm that was unintentional through punishment, the creation of fear, the destruction of self worth, the loss of your own value within the relationship ... I question the risks involved in this sort of physical punishment?

I also wonder how it enhances personal growth in the one you value? How do I feel valued when I am beaten? I fucked up, badly, I do not even truely understand why I did it? how will this sort of punishment help me to understand and evaluate the situation to find why and from there sort out strategies to prevent its reoccurance?

I can not speak for others, as I have said on these boards, I was new, and He was the only Dom I have ever played with or been with. My experience is very limited, probably why I found this thread to be very enlightening and useful. So please excuse any gaps in these questions, they would be from ignorance not disrespect.

(bugger spell check not working and I know when I am emotional about a subject my spelling can suck ... please excuse any spelling errors also lol)



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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/28/2007 2:22:22 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The one thing I don’t see emphasized enough in this fastidious discussion of punitive and corrective punishments is the effect of any punishment on prevention of undesired behavior. There is discussion of changing behavior after she has done something dreadful, but little talk of preventing her from doing bad things. Prevention would seem to be the superior aim [...]


Actually, my post has as much to do with prevention as with punishment.

I favour behavioural modification as a means of molding and shaping a slave. Which is one of those areas where a cognitive sciences approach can offer a much more productive angle (IMO) than the outdated pseudoscience espoused by Skinner et al. The cognitive sciences can be used to cultivate Obedience as a virtue (hence the capitalization), and to be the means by which she is cast in the desired mold.

quote:


Don’t fool yourself again and think that she has problems causing her behavior that you have the ability to correctly diagnose and treat.


I can't recall anyone mentioning psychiatric problems here, so diagnosis and treatment is irrelevant. It's a matter of using the same skillset (which can be acquired like any other) to deal with behavioural modification. Sitting down on one's ass and saying "well, I'm no psychiatrist, so I can't treat her" and leaving everything to punishments kind of misses the point, which is that a relationship involves human interaction, regardless of whether one is an expert in the field or not. Acquiring the skills to improve those interactions is entirely positive, and does not necessitate sufficient mastery of the field to deal with psychiatric illness. That said, I've successfully applied CBT to just that in the past, where people have been unable or unwilling to get help elsewhere, or where the problems have been trivial (e.g. phobias, traversing limits without trauma). It's not hard to get to a level where you can deal with minor problems.

And that is generally sufficient to deal with preventative and corrective behavioural modification.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/28/2007 2:37:01 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

B F Skinner has been mentioned a few times [...] He believed if we understood human behavior sufficiently, we could so carefully control it that punishment would be entirely unnecessary.


Yet he entirely missed the point that there are cognitive elements to behaviour, for instance. And Skinner rejected the use of scientific method, which others have corrected after that in the course of the "cognitive revolution", pretty much starting with Chomsky's refutation of Skinner's "Behavioural Language". Skinner was influential, and still is, but so was Freud, and the two of them both belong in the past, along with their work. History can hold valuable lessons, but one of the most important lessons would be that both of these have made critical mistakes that cause their work to not hold up to scrutiny.

quote:


Then again, I suppose that would lead to a debate about whether those slaves served out of desire (which requires freewill) or simply because we had so carefully engineered things that they no longer had any choice... Stepford slaves.  Always a catch to everything isn't there.


It breaks down like this... if you consider addicts to have free will, then free will cannot be eliminated, because that is as far down as you can go into the circuits that are involved in the process of deciding things without resorting to procedures that are far beyond the reach of most- probably all- BDSM practicioners.

But you can take it to the level where the thought of disobedience does not generally occur, just as shooting the your kids because they want you to make food for them is a thing that does not generally occur to a regular person, and similarly for actually leaving. My take on it is that this is quite okay, and perhaps even desireable, but certainly a thing that should be discussed up front. Basically, you obtain the informed consent of their unrestrained free will, and proceed within the confines of what you have agreed to hold yourself to.

Stepford slaves is not a bad thing, if done with informed consent and without compromising the other parameters of what you want from a slave. Certainly no worse than forced compliance, which is also quite okay in the presence of prior informed consent. But certainly a lot of work over a lot of time, and a major responsibility, above and beyond that of regular slaves.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/28/2007 3:02:42 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taintedgypsy

Many of you must have come accross newbies, unsure of limits and there place.


More importantly, all of us have been newbies at some point in time.

That said, without sufficient comprehension, there can be no informed consent.

quote:


Do you not consider the risks with this type of corporal punishment to be high?


No higher than for any other type of punishment.

And one does not need to rely on corporal punishment to the exclusion of all else, after all.

quote:


[...]how much damage can realistically be caused by time out, extra chores, loss of privilages ect. as opposed to a beating, corporal serious canning, &/or serious humilation?[...]


In nephandi's case, the former would be traumatic, while the latter would not.

People are different.

quote:


To undo harm that was unintentional through punishment, the creation of fear, the destruction of self worth, the loss of your own value within the relationship ... I question the risks involved in this sort of physical punishment?


Knowing one's limits is as important for a Master as for anyone else. If you can't fix it, don't break it. Accidents happen, but then again I know of a case where a humorous and offhanded remark from a vanilla husband sparked 3 years of anorexia in his vanilla wife. Nothing in life is perfectly safe, and most of us try to be aware of risks and manage them.

On the flip side of the coin, what about the fear caused by seeing the dynamic upon which the relationship was built starting to fail, or the loss of self worth associated with coming to see oneself as failing the relationship, or the loss of value from realizing that the whole thing is not M/s but a sham that only goes as far as one wants in the moment?

Punishment certainly isn't a universal solution, but it has some merit to it, if done right.

And prevention is not in the least bit incompatible with punishment as a fallback.

quote:


I also wonder how it enhances personal growth in the one you value?


We get past an issue more quickly, because it has been dealt with in a cathartic manner.

That leaves us free to focus on moving forward, and keeps the air clean between us.

quote:


How do I feel valued when I am beaten?


I don't know. That is for you to answer. As for her, that's complicated.

quote:


I fucked up, badly, I do not even truely understand why I did it?


I agree, which is one of the reasons why punishment- if meant to be productive- should only be used when the antecedent-consequent coupling is understood, which requires proper communication. Even the ABC model includes an awareness of this element, and most people make some allowances for just this bit.

quote:


how will this sort of punishment help me to understand and evaluate the situation to find why and from there sort out strategies to prevent its reoccurance?


Punishment does not deal with understanding, whether corporeal or otherwise. It deals with aversive conditioning, or negative reinforcement as it's called nowadays, making a person more primally aware of the coupling between undesired behaviour and negative consequences, outweighing the salience of that behaviour.

Punishment relies on the person administering it being able to understand how to apply it properly, and being able to determine that the right coupling occurs. Combined with the other tools, like positive reinforcement of desired behaviour and cognitive retraining, a synergistic effect can be derived that can be taken exactly as far as one wants it.

I respect her desire to be a perfect slave enough to do what I can to help her with that.

As for undesireable behaviour, that means prevention, detection and response.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to taintedgypsy)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/28/2007 3:45:40 AM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		He dips His lid to all;

I will attempt to make a brief comment.  I am familiar with A/B/C and I concur with K.O.M's reasoning in His adaptation.  I  found my teaching/learning/understanding of it however to be very power based as indicated by Aswad (which I suspect is why Aswad refers to ROTE or 'Do as I say' learning).  This strict A/B/C approach has it's applications in D/s however in my experience can fail miserably if the Dom considers it to be Their only tool.   A/B/C fails to consider the cause of the aberrant/ or worthwhile behaviour and the power stakeholder (Dom/me) takes control from their perspective only.  The sub is self-empowered by doing what they are told is the correct action.

My understanding of  CBT (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy) is it appears to have the power dynamic dramatically different.  For example,  a DaddyDom utilising CBT can empower Their sub to understand the reasons for change, and encourage the sub to strategise how they can enforce the change that is required; thus the DaddyDom is  scaffolding and 'maturing' their submissive with appreciation for the reasons of their actions and the causitive effects.

I hasten to add however that I believe all Dominants should be fully aware they are not gods!  Where circumstances occur that cannot be readily simplified and positively overcome for the benefit of the submissive's well being and the relationship (not for the Dominant and their concept of relationship)  the Dominant has little option but to employ A/B/C.   That is- direct professional counselling forwith for the submissive and the cessation/suspension of collar pending counselling.     The omnipresent psychological dynamic of D/s can  create damage far beyond any sub's consciousnous if the Dominant fails in their duty of care to Their submissive/s.

It's all too easy for the Dominant to say, 'They were too bratty, I'll find a 'real' submissive" without the Dominant reflecting and admitting their own failings in their actions/ duty of care with the submissive.

Warm regards to all.  Driver.

_____________________________

Dance as though nobody is watching!

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/28/2007 12:03:06 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Padriag, you presented the punishment/prevention dilemma that is present well. That is an interesting idea that M/s relationships would be the perfect ones in which to find the solution to behavior changing techniques.

You presented the problem of not having to give speeding tickets if we knew the proper way to prevent poor behavior, speeding. I would attempt to solve that particular problem this way. 

A program to slow down speeders will have better results if it is a campaign aimed at the driving public and emphasizes safety instead of punishment. The anti-littering programs have worked magic greatly reducing litter in many cities and enforcement was the smallest part of these. So again, I think intervention by whatever name you call it will have better results than punishing.

I’m going to let Aswad, Knight and you guys who concentrate on this stuff debate the particulars of which psychologist has the best ideas. I’ll read it with interest.

Aswad, I was using metaphor when I said I don’t think we are capable of diagnosing and treating problems. I don’t think any of us would be so foolish as to attempt diagnosing and treating real psychiatric problems.

We all have different views based on our relationships and focus, but I see punishment is too often used to exact retribution from the wrong doer and to administer personal vengeance instead of rehabilitation. The best that can be said about punishments for those who use them is that penalties clearly defined beforehand for a certain offense will limit the ability of the Dom to exert personal vengeance that could be far worse than the prescribed punishment.


< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 8/28/2007 12:13:01 PM >

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to Driver1961)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Discipline, Punishment, and a Crazy lil thing calle... - 8/28/2007 1:05:06 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Padriag, you presented the punishment/prevention dilemma that is present well. That is an interesting idea that M/s relationships would be the perfect ones in which to find the solution to behavior changing techniques.

Thanks.  I do think M/s relationships offer a unique situation where more of the variables can be controlled, precisely because there is that desire for the control.  Put another way... slaves generally want their master/owner to control them in various ways, including controlling various aspects of their lives, behavior, etc.  A more "mainstream" relationship lacking that sort of power dynamic would be more likely to be at odds with any form of overt control.  So while there aren't any guarantees, I think M/s relationships offer a better opportunity for successfully applying such concepts. 

quote:

You presented the problem of not having to give speeding tickets if we knew the proper way to prevent poor behavior, speeding. I would attempt to solve that particular problem this way. 

I agree that intervention, prevention, and lets add leadership are going to be more effective.  What I think would be really, really, really productive would be to see some discussions on how dominants can on a practical level apply that to their relationships.  Anyone who's been a regular on these forums for any length of time has likely seen several threads from individuals asking how to be dominant, how and when to punish, etc.  As annoying as they get for us "old timers", I believe they also indicate how much of a drought of guidance exists on these topics.


quote:

I’m going to let Aswad, Knight and you guys who concentrate on this stuff debate the particulars of which psychologist has the best ideas. I’ll read it with interest.

Honestly, I'll bow out of such a debate as well.  The problem with debating who has the best ideas is that it tends towards idolizing individuals and that can leave us blind to others with good ideas.  Second, the minute you decide someone has the best idea on something... someone else comes along with a better idea (life's just perverse that way).  I enjoyed reading Skinner, and while I didn't agree with everything he wrote I learned a lot from that study.  I continue to read and learn from others as I have time.  I don't discount anyone, nor consign them to a historical footnote because I've learned too much from everyone I've read, even some I almost wholly disagreed with.  The other reason I'd rather not debate psychologists and their individual theories, and I don't mean any offense to anyone with this, is that it too often becomes pointless.  Case in point, this thread.  I've had two people write to me asking me to explain what this or that person was talking about.  At a certain point the conversation becomes something only a few can participate in, and that means it profits the remaining majority nothing.  I'd like to hope this thread and some others like it serve an educational purpose for those who have very real questions about the topics at hand.  When I start getting emails from people asking me to explain what is being discussed, I know it's time to step back to the basics.

quote:

We all have different views based on our relationships and focus, but I see punishment is too often used to exact retribution from the wrong doer and to administer personal vengeance instead of rehabilitation.

That's always been the biggest and best argument against punishment... that it too frequently becomes about harming rather than helping.  Changing that means one of two things, dispensing with punishment in any form entirely (which strikes me as being like throwing the baby out with the bathwater) or revisioning it, its application and its role.  As you might guess I personally prefer the latter, but that's my personal choice and nothing more.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 120
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