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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 12:25:59 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie


And I hope Bita forgives me for this, and I am certainly not coming to her defense here because she needs no defending, but I do want to say this - After spending so many hundreds of hours on the phone with her that my own mother is actually jealous of her, and after spending a significant amount of time with her in person - you know, hanging out with her, her kids, her grandkids, her Dad and her cousins, I can tell you that yep, she and her entire family are crazy!!  Then again, I've never met an Italian family who isn't...




Okay, if you thought the wedding was bad you just have to come to one of our family reunions. That wedding was nothing compared to what happens when the entire clan gets together!

 Nothing to forgive, hon. The people who count, count.. the people who don't, don't. "Nuff said.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 12:30:24 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Okay, if you thought the wedding was bad you just have to come to one of our family reunions. That wedding was nothing compared to what happens when the entire clan gets together!



Well since I'm now known as your lesbian wife, I'm expecting an invitation!!! 

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 12:38:30 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Okay, if you thought the wedding was bad you just have to come to one of our family reunions. That wedding was nothing compared to what happens when the entire clan gets together!



Well since I'm now known as your lesbian wife, I'm expecting an invitation!!! 


The next one is in Tuscany in July 2008. ::grins:: If you can stomach 500 or so 'crazy' Italians talking over each other, pack a bag, buy a ticket and come with! Oh, and bring a rain slicker.. the spaghetti toss can be a bitch on your clothes.

::highjack /off::

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 12:38:42 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Now I want an italian family.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 12:42:32 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Owned,

I understand what DG is saying. He isn't saying she is crazy. He is suggesting that being into BDSM when you have been traumatized and abused and saying but "I'm OK now" is much like a heroin addict going on methadone and saying but "I'm OK now"..or a former cocaine addict saying I used to be an addict but I'm OK now as they down a beer. Some people see those folks and see someone in recovery from what their addiction was..people like domiguy see it and say "Great recovery and good luck" with an eyeroll and rightly so. True light/true recovery would really involve leaving any form of being made powerless, being hurt, being humiliated and so on behind you.. changing forms is still the same...regardless if you think you are in a better place and if your partner isn't an abuser and nothing like your former abuser/abusers...you are still feeding a piece of your abused/traumtaized self that needs to be fed. I know I do and that is OK...but being here and saying but I'm OK now and doing the same things just in a safer or more controlled way is much like heroin addicts who go on methadone..they just changed the shade of the darkness to a "better" one but they are not in the light. That is all I believe he is saying. I may be wrong and way off base and I'm sure he will tell me if I have it wrong.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I wasn't going to write this, but it's been on my mind so here goes.

And DG this isn't any "heat", it's just an observation I've come to see in the last week or so.  It's a comparative observation about a guy who appears to not be in any sort of long standing relationship at present, who goes from thread to thread on a BDSM message board displaying his talent in sarcasm - making people laugh by poking fun of and ridiculing others.  Now he's professing "craziness" toward a woman who has been in a loving, stable relationship for over 10 years, who came to discover herself by way of a rather rough road, and who is attempting to put positive messages of hope out there to others who may be stuck on their own rough roads. 

I mean, I can certainly see how the way Daddysprop was talked to yesterday was so much more helpful and constructve and beneficial, eh?  Hmm, "You can find your way to happiness, too" vs. "You are nuts and your Master is an asshole."  Yeah, I can see the effectiveness of the latter.

And I hope Bita forgives me for this, and I am certainly not coming to her defense here because she needs no defending, but I do want to say this - After spending so many hundreds of hours on the phone with her that my own mother is actually jealous of her, and after spending a significant amount of time with her in person - you know, hanging out with her, her kids, her grandkids, her Dad and her cousins, I can tell you that yep, she and her entire family are crazy!!  Then again, I've never met an Italian family who isn't...

Sorry Bita (heh), and DG, give it a rest already, eh?




< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 9/21/2007 12:51:48 PM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 12:56:14 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi there, Chewsie,

If I understand what you're saying then, those of us who came to find our true self - the part of us who is fed by serving, by pleasing, by fulfilling every fantasy of our own and of the person(s) we love - are living a lie and this isn't really our true self? We really aren't at peace?  We are fooling ourselves?

I would beg to differ.  I felt these things about myself when I was a toddler.  I remember those feelings explicitly, and they grew from there.  My problem is that I thought I was crazy and freakish (ok no comments from the peanut gallery) and without knowing of this world of D/s, I picked a domineering guy for a husband because when I was 19 and didn't know better, I thought I was able to express myself by submitting.  But without knowing better, I submitted to a sociopath.  THAT was the unhealthy part.  Getting away from that was healthy.  Partnering up with someone who lets me love the way I have always needed to, and who lets me express myself in the most fulfilling and complete way I can find...well sorry, but that doesn't seem like just another addiction to me.

I don't think I'm alone in that.  What you guys seem to be saying is that our craziness brought us here.  What I'm saying is we should have been here in the first place, only we took a really bad detour.

And you know, truth be told, is anyone in life really "fine?"  We are all learning, growing, developing, improving.  At least I hope we are.  I am at peace - finally - and I can actually laugh at the craziness I lived through.  But I am far from being where I need to go.  The thing is, I am finally were I need to be - in the present, and smiling.  And I have good company in that.  I'm not here for therapy.  I'm here because this is who I am.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 1:01:19 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

Yes… I will support an individuals right to make destructive choices. I will not stop them if they seek to make a choice that brings them harm. However, I will also not be silent to their choice that in my view is harmful. They may listen… or they may not. 


If I care about someone, I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut if I think they're doing something questionable.  But, no, I don't interfere with or question their ability to make a choice.  There's something cynical and cold about passively standing by and letting a person self-destruct without so much as a word of concern. 

I agree with others who posted that telling people what to do and criticizing them (the heavy handed approach which does seem to attack a person's decision making capacity) is hardly useful but, not saying anything at all strikes me as being a bit passive aggressive.  I almost get the sense that those who are on the side of silence are hoping for a train wreck. 

I would be scared to live in a world where I thought that no one would say anything if I was doing something obviously stupid.

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 9/21/2007 1:03:42 PM >

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 1:25:46 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I can tell you that yep, she and her entire family are crazy!!  Then again, I've never met an Italian family who isn't...

Sorry Bita (heh), and DG, give it a rest already, eh?




Hey! Hey!  i'm Italian (grumble, grumble)  But then again, you're right! 
 
And please, owned (and others).....make sure it's D.G. (with the dots) when you reference domiguy, and not DG, as in myself.  I got enough problems here! 
 
DG

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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 1:31:59 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		 I'm in the same boat as you and Bita..having the exact same feelings as toddler and straight through adutlhood also having taken a bad detour and having one forced upon me. I'm only saying even if this was the right path from childhood Owned, that detour and those abuses/traumas sort of make being here like the heroin addict on methadone. You had a tramnatic experience as an adult, I'm not getting the impression you already thought yourself worthless and were drawn partners who abused you because it is what you knew, what felt safe, what felt good..because somewhere in your life the connection was made between humiliation/pain and pleasure..maybe Domiguy has it all wrong about Bita but his point is still valid because there are A LOT of people in BDSM who have had traumatic events that created connections between humiliation/pain and pleasure...DG is saying that is like people standing up in a room full of current addicts and saying "I used to be a heroin addict but now I take 120mg of methadone a day and I'm OK" and not seeing the differennce when a person stands up and says "I am an addict, I have been clean for 5 years and run 5 miles a day"....one has come into the light and found peace...one has changed his shade of darkness and found peace but probably not health or not healing.  DG suggested that Bita's reply on the no-limits thread suggested she wasn't changed from that person because she still can't set boundaries she simply found a less dark place where those fences are built for her...I don't think anyone is lying, I think that is the true person, I just think saying the way out of the hole is to change your shades of dark and keep doing the things that trigger your pleasure receptors that were caused by abuse in your formative years isn't being healed...and that may not be the case for Bita at all and Bita isn't even the issues here...it is the underlying message he is trying to get across. I'm not sying that I agree with it in full simply that I understand it. I'm certainly not trying to offend you or Bita...just trying to say there is truth to what he is saying it may turn out to not be true for you or bita but it is true about a lot of people down in that pit of darkness and true for many who think they have gotten out. This is far less personal than you are making it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Hi there, Chewsie,

If I understand what you're saying then, those of us who came to find our true self - the part of us who is fed by serving, by pleasing, by fulfilling every fantasy of our own and of the person(s) we love - are living a lie and this isn't really our true self? We really aren't at peace?  We are fooling ourselves?

I would beg to differ.  I felt these things about myself when I was a toddler.  I remember those feelings explicitly, and they grew from there.  My problem is that I thought I was crazy and freakish (ok no comments from the peanut gallery) and without knowing of this world of D/s, I picked a domineering guy for a husband because when I was 19 and didn't know better, I thought I was able to express myself by submitting.  But without knowing better, I submitted to a sociopath.  THAT was the unhealthy part.  Getting away from that was healthy.  Partnering up with someone who lets me love the way I have always needed to, and who lets me express myself in the most fulfilling and complete way I can find...well sorry, but that doesn't seem like just another addiction to me.

I don't think I'm alone in that.  What you guys seem to be saying is that our craziness brought us here.  What I'm saying is we should have been here in the first place, only we took a really bad detour.

And you know, truth be told, is anyone in life really "fine?"  We are all learning, growing, developing, improving.  At least I hope we are.  I am at peace - finally - and I can actually laugh at the craziness I lived through.  But I am far from being where I need to go.  The thing is, I am finally were I need to be - in the present, and smiling.  And I have good company in that.  I'm not here for therapy.  I'm here because this is who I am.


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 9/21/2007 1:36:19 PM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 1:40:59 PM   
murmur


Posts: 394
Joined: 9/26/2005
Status: offline 		Great ideas have been  posted here so i'll be short as to not be redundant...
Some people are happy being unhappy, they love the attention that pity can get them and those are pretty recognizable by their constant complaints and bitterness, hearing advices but dismissing them immediately cause it's *so much worst then you thought and you couldnt understand* etc etc etc.
Those are pathetic and arent worth the time you would give them.
You cant decide one's life or one's decision. As LaTigresse nicely said, I honestly believe that we choose our life paths, either conciously or subconciously, based upon things we need to learn, things we need to go through.
If you feel you have to let the person go through bad stuff because she made her choice, let her have it and deal with the broken pieces after, when the person is on the same wavelenght as you and can see things in a new light.

_____________________________

Become who you are. - Socrate

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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 1:44:23 PM   
Pyrrsefanie


Posts: 1222
Joined: 9/18/2007
From: NEW HAMPSHAAAAAAH!
Status: offline 		Right and wrong are concepts, and nothing more.

What is considered "right" by the moral majority is considered to be so because that is the way they were taught to think; the same goes for what they consider "wrong."  There is no concrete definition of what makes something right or wrong, it's all a matter of personal taste, experience, et cetera.

If a friend is making a stupid decision, I may politely say "Hm, I think such-and-such would be a bit safer" and leave it at that, but it's based entirely on the logic that said decision could end in harm, not that I think it's morally bankrupt.  I put in my two cents and really I can't do much more past that point.  One thing I've learned is that if somebody has their mind set on something, they're going to do it regardless of how much you complain.  Sometimes I don't even bother because I know that the particular person is just going to let it go in one ear and out the other, so why waste my breath?  Either way my moral conscience is clear without having to harp on them about it.

So while I can see how the concept of trying to stop someone from doing something "wrong" could be one of those heart-in-the-right-place kind of things, it just doesn't work for me, personally.  Things happen for a reason and I'm not one to screw with destiny... if it's not meant to happen, then something else will come up and stop it.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 2:05:06 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I don't think I'm alone in that.  What you guys seem to be saying is that our craziness brought us here.  What I'm saying is we should have been here in the first place, only we took a really bad detour.



Nods.  There was someone else here (prop comes to mind...sorry if it isn't) who once said that she believed being submissive even as a child (and thereafter) is what made her great prey for those who abused her in her life.  i can see what she was saying.
 
She didn't come to D/s because she was abused and needs to be healed.....she came because this is where she should have been to begin with.  She came home!  (And sorry, i only mentioned her name as i recalled it but it could be anyone who feels the same way).
 
There are a lot of emotionally traumatized people out there (if you ever worked in the mental health field, you might almost find it shocking.  Hell, half the country is depressed or bi-polar.  Seems everybody's got something!)  But i think the ones that come to D/s were meant to be here, regardless.  And i think it's great if they have found a safe haven to be themselves....to find happiness.  Look how many "out there" never do.
 
Reminds me of a woman who because she endured so much childhood abuse, ended up with split personalities.  She too suffered at the hands of abusive partners for years.  She then met a dominant (this was many, many years ago.....before the internet.....and she had met him through a newspaper ad).  She had been in therapy for years and was honest about that.  He saw her anyway, and eventually they married.  He was a dominant, but called their relationship a "benevolent dictatorship".  They actually shared a Domestic Discipline type of relationship, no BDSM.  But he was the firm hand she needed right along....and she was with him until he died.
 
She will always have multiple personalities....most times brought out by stress.  But just to have been able to have someone there to help her along that road...well, to me, that is just awesome.
 
Due to D.G.'s second reference to bita's thread, i went and read the whole thing...and cried through the whole thing.  To think of what people suffered as young, innocent children   
 
All i can say is i hope that for all of you, you find peace of mind and happiness....regardless of where that is.
 
And to the OP.....sorry about the hijack.  Damn, i hate when i do that! 
 
Daddysgirl

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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 4:39:20 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Chewsie:  I can understand that what you're saying might be the case for some.  I would not universally say it for all, and I certainly wouldn't hold a person - any person that I don't truly know - up as the poster child for such an example, as was done.  To compare BDSM to meth is to say the BDSM is an unhealthy, fucked up drug, and anyone who engages in it is fucked up.  I agree some might be.  Lots of vanilla people are fucked up because they were abused.  Lots of church people.  Lots of any kind of person. People go to all sorts of places for healing...and if they find that healing, what's the harm done?  To know you are submissive, and to thrive in a D/s environment, whether it includes BDSM or not, is to know yourself.  For some of us, finding pleasure in those activities which once hurt us means we are free from the hurt it once cause, and those activities are no longer associated with bad stuff.  It'd kind of like when I hear a song now that my ex husband and I shared together - I am not sad, I am not anything.  I see it as what it is - a cool song that I sing along to because I like the music.  It is no longer associated with what it once was, because I am no longer dragging that crap around.

adaddysgirl:  Sorry about the abbreviation confusion :)  I liked your comment about coming home.  That was the first thing that came to my mind the first time I looked up at my Master: "I'm home." 

Not so sure this was a hijack, as in order to discuss attacking the "wrong," one must know what the "wrong" is to begin with.  And according to some folks around here, what we are doing is "wrong." 

In any case, I've got a man to go prepare for so he can do wrong things to me, lol. 

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 4:54:34 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		Well i'm sure you're having a lot more fun doing what's wrong than i am having doing what's right...hahaha.  Lucky you!  :)
 
DG

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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 4:58:57 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Chewsie:  I can understand that what you're saying might be the case for some.  I would not universally say it for all, and I certainly wouldn't hold a person - any person that I don't truly know - up as the poster child for such an example, as was done.  To compare BDSM to meth is to say the BDSM is an unhealthy, fucked up drug, and anyone who engages in it is fucked up.  I agree some might be.  Lots of vanilla people are fucked up because they were abused.  Lots of church people.  Lots of any kind of person.


We spend waaay too much time on the phone. ::laughs:: You've said pretty much what I was going to say except I have a feeling that I'm chuckling a bit more about it. I quit listening to the vanillas preach this same old song a long time ago and I'm not about to tune that station back in. Meth is to heroine as adult consentual BDSM is to child abuse?  Um, ok. Whatever floats your boat and gets ya through.

Well, I've got a completely fucked up, totally sick and demented husband just waiting upstairs for some dinner before he settles down into an evening of debauchery and mental instability. Gawds but I hate Mr. Bean reruns but at least Coupling is on the menu, too.



Celeste

edited to add a PS: Daddysgirl.. I really like what you said about coming home, too. Home, truly, is where the heart is and my heart is firmly entrenched in M/s and that's not because of my childhood.. it's in spite of it.


< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 9/21/2007 5:02:07 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 5:55:35 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


edited to add a PS: Daddysgirl.. I really like what you said about coming home, too. Home, truly, is where the heart is and my heart is firmly entrenched in M/s and that's not because of my childhood.. it's in spite of it.



And there ya go!  :)
 
DG

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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 6:38:58 PM   
angelic


Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline 		KnightofMists, i have not read but two responses and at the tone of those, i decided not to read more until i said what was in my gut to say about this.  It is a wonderful fresh of breath air.  Thank you for sharing those wonderful words.  Honestly, it has been a while when i have not come on here and saw nothing but ugliness, drama and plain stupidity, this is a wonderful change. 

Again, i have not read but the 2 responses and i am, unfortunately, absolutely certain that the following pages will be filled with drama.  (If i am wrong, i will post an apology).  But for this one moment, i am enjoying being here.  Again, thank you for sharing.

_____________________________

~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci


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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 7:21:43 PM   
SultrySub4M


Posts: 23
Joined: 9/18/2007
Status: offline 		Rules of Engagement with "bad choices"--
1) Make sure your own back yard is clutter-free before you go accussing your neighbors of being dirty.
2) For every action there is a reaction.  All choices have consequences, some natural, some logical.  Sharing your choices on a public bdsm forum filled with super intelligent people is gonna get you a consequence before you even act on your choices.
3) A dude named W. Glasser wrote tons on choice theory and reality therapy.  Look him up if you wanna know the theory behind it all.
4) People who think they are Dr. Phil/Dr. Phyllis are very, very dangerous unless there are a bunch of letters behind thier name like LICSW, LMFT, or LP.  And if you have all those fancy letters behind your name, THIS is not the place to hand out professional advice. 
5) A good response may be, "I'm not sure, what do you think?"
 

< Message edited by SultrySub4M -- 9/21/2007 7:28:31 PM >

_____________________________

>>> Life must be lived as play. <<<
>The measure of a man is what he does with power.<
Plato

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RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 7:54:05 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Chewsie:  I can understand that what you're saying might be the case for some.  I would not universally say it for all, and I certainly wouldn't hold a person - any person that I don't truly know - up as the poster child for such an example, as was done.  To compare BDSM to meth is to say the BDSM is an unhealthy, fucked up drug, and anyone who engages in it is fucked up.  I agree some might be.  Lots of vanilla people are fucked up because they were abused.  Lots of church people.  Lots of any kind of person.


We spend waaay too much time on the phone. ::laughs:: You've said pretty much what I was going to say except I have a feeling that I'm chuckling a bit more about it. I quit listening to the vanillas preach this same old song a long time ago and I'm not about to tune that station back in. Meth is to heroine as adult consentual BDSM is to child abuse?  Um, ok. Whatever floats your boat and gets ya through.



..you bet ya...and I say the same back to you Celeste..whatever floats your boat and gets ya through.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Defend the Right! Attack the Wrong! - 9/21/2007 7:58:26 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		The discussion in this post seems to illustrate the problem pretty well as it's turned into somewhat of a defending and attacking hijack, however, it's difficult to tell who is "right" and who is "wrong".  Each poster seems to have a good, well thought out idea of what they want to say and supports their statements farily well.  How does one choose who is "right" or "wrong"?

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