quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
 
“One has not only the right of choice, but a moral responsibility to support another’s right to choose.  Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to rise against harmful choices!”

 
 
Objective laws can be determined to be unjust by the application of logic.  Morals, however, are subjective. Harm, too, is not objective and differs from person to person. What harms Jane may not harm June. The criteria for physical harm is probably easier to determine, but the criteria for mental harm ... you open up a huge can of worms when you delve into that area. So, where's the line? It seems to me that it can only be determined on a case by case basis and the first and foremost authority in each case is going to be the participant of the activities, not 3rd parties who are 'most likely' not going to be privvy to all the facts needed to make the determination in the first place.
 
When I examine whether or not I believe in an individuals right to choose I can only conclude that their right to choose outweighs my right to determine whether or not those choices are valid for them as I'm simply not qualified to do so.  I can certainly voice an opinion that activity X would be wrong 'for me', but I can't categorically say that because it's wrong for me, it's wrong for everyone. I am one woman, in one country who understands best my own culture. My perceptions are quite limited in the grand scheme of things.
 
You either believe YKIOK or you don't. I don't see how you can have it both ways. If you embrace the idea that you can determine what is right and wrong for someone else, do you also give others the right to determine what is right and wrong for you? If the line is not consent what is it? Broken bones? Bruises? A red behind? A pink behind? A mindfuck? Who decides? The collective 'us'?
 
You can give a standing ovation to those who balance the YKIOK crowd (of which I most whole-heartedly am one) if such is what you feel you need to do for a clear moral conscience. That's your right. It's my right to cringe that freedom of choice means so little to so many and when you take it away, it's only a first step in squelching even more individual rights. In my view, there's way too much of that already.
 
Celeste

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Well, when it comes to the issue of "Freedom of Choice", I am all for it. You can choose to live your life anyway you please and I will gladly fight for your right to make those choices even if they are harmful.

Well that's nice.

But it certainly doesnt mean that I have to like it or approve it or clap my hands or support you in anyway past allowing you to make the choice.

And did anyone here suggest that you should, or had to?

I'll listen to what you have to say. I will give you a fair amount of time to explain your case. I will approach the issue with an open mind. I will allow you to change my mind and show me why such action is not harmful or wrong.

Well that's big of you, but who needs to try to convince you that something is not harmful, or wrong....by your standards?  Sorry, but i just don't see where an "open mind" requires others to justify what they do.

But in the end, I will form an opinion and in the proper forum or the proper time, I will gladly and honestly share that opinion.

No harm in sharing an opinion.

You want to do stupid, harmful, and bad things, go right ahead. I will support your right to choose to be subjected to stupid, harmful and bad things or to find someone who is willing to be subjected to the stupid, harmful, and bad things that you want to do.

i can feel the anger starting to rise.....

But dont expect me to abandon my own personal moral compass, my rational thinking, and my center and change my opinon of those things being stupid, harmful, and bad when my opinion is in fact that these things are stupid, harmful, and bad.

Again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

And, on that note, why are you allowing yourself to be influenced by my opinion if you have found solidarity and center in the things you are doing being right, safe, and smart?

Somehow i just don't think your opinion is going to change her lifestyle (but of course i could be wrong).

The notion of "Be Silent and Live and Let Live" was something I cant really agree with. Personally, its "Live and Let Live, but Speak Up and Say Something!" for me.

Again, you are entitled to your opinion....

What does it say about the depth of my character and my own personal convictions when I find negative value in an entity or an activity or an action but do absolutely nothing?

It shows that you know how to mind your own business.  It shows that you are wise enough to distinguish between expressing your opinion and trying to force your standards on others.  It shows you are mature enough to realize that not everyone wants, or values your opinion.  And it shows you are man enough to say "Well, i tried...but i realize that others must live their lives according to their own standards....and all i can do is wish them luck with that."
 
i don't know why people are confusing "i must bash this person over the head with my beliefs to they won't act so stupidly" with having some sort of depth of character, ethics or morals.  Why the need to force others to try to see what is right or wrong according to your values?  Insecurity, maybe?
 
i am secure in what i believe in...and that doesn't mean that others have to believe the same as i do....nor do i feel any compelling need to try to force others to. 

I think its actually pretty cool when people speak up even when I am the one challenging them and shooting them down.

Perhaps you take some kind of twisted pleasure in shooting others down?  Do you have some sort of inferiority complex?

For example, I can think of one little segment on these boards.a few months ago that has really stuck with me. A certain slave recited a tale about how her Master owned a previous slave and preceded to "break her bones" to show her how extreme he was and how extreme the "no limits" relationship was. The defense of the Master was that he didnt want to do it, but had to do it because it was neccessary. Then the narrator proceeded to shift blame onto the slave because "she should have made sure she fully understood the details of the relationship before entering".

i must have missed this thread but would love to read it if you could provide the link.

Now, when I read something like that and then proceed to watch people compliment the narrator and say things along the lines of "Aww, I understand the dynamic now and how it was necessary.", I think to myself...

Am I the last sane person on Earth?
 
Well, i don't know about that but when i read your very first reply here, i thought you were completely off your rocker.

 
The scenario is an utter offense to my rational mind and the reasoning of it all an utter insult to my intiellgence. The main regret I have right now was not actually sharing my own opinion of that completely ludicrous situation and I am somewhat glad I can correct it.

An insult to your intelligence?  Sounds like you're taking all this a bit too personally, no?

I'll gladly support the right of anyone to make consentual and informed idiotic choices, but dont confuse my tolerance for respect.

i don't suppose you have to respect anyone you choose not to.

And when your lunacy becomes a problem in my own little part of Idaho, I will take action to correct it.

And would that mean in your home?  On your little space on the internet?  On the CM forums?  i just wonder what area this would have to occur in for you to feel "invaded".

Finnally, on a final note, while I would like to beleive that the simple statement of "If its consentual, then its ethical" can be the black and white absolute in which provides the ultimate solution to every single dilemna, I cant forget that Stocholm Syndrom, Battered Person's Syndome, emotional manipulation, fear of abandonment, codependcy, and blackmail do exist in the world and make the notion of "consent" far from black and white.

Woot!  Think we have a candidate for the Drama King (DK) award here!.  Any nominations?
 
What you are failing to grasp, MR, is that unless specifically asked for help, nobody cares about your opinion, your standards, your morals, etc...it all falls on deaf ears.  But you certainly do like to continue to spew how idiotic others are....as if others should, for some reason, be following the MR's code of ethics.  And you may think this reflects poorly on those who just don't seem to be following your sage advice....but it really reflects more poorly on you. 
 
i don't see anyone here asking you to interfere with their decisions on how they choose to live their lives with their partners.  Your "personal convictions" mean nothing to them.  Yet you seem to think you can actually save another from their "idiotic"  choices?  Sounds like you've got a lot to learn about life. 
 
So you can do this   or you can learn to voice your opinion, hope that someone listens, and move on....and that's all up to you.  Don't forget though that just as you form opinions of others, so do they of you...and right now, you might be looking like a bit of an idiot yourself.
 
Now hop along and have a good night!
 
DG

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl




Woot!  Think we have a candidate for the Drama King (DK) award here!.  Any nominations?
 
What you are failing to grasp, MR, is that unless specifically asked for help, nobody cares about your opinion, your standards, your morals, etc...it all falls on deaf ears.  But you certainly do like to continue to spew how idiotic others are....as if others should, for some reason, be following the MR's code of ethics.  And you may think this reflects poorly on those who just don't seem to be following your sage advice....but it really reflects more poorly on you. 
 
i don't see anyone here asking you to interfere with their decisions on how they choose to live their lives with their partners.  Your "personal convictions" mean nothing to them.  Yet you seem to think you can actually save another from their "idiotic"  choices?  Sounds like you've got a lot to learn about life. 
 
So you can do this   or you can learn to voice your opinion, hope that someone listens, and move on....and that's all up to you.  Don't forget though that just as you form opinions of others, so do they of you...and right now, you might be looking like a bit of an idiot yourself.
 
Now hop along and have a good night!
 
DG

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Well, when it comes to the issue of "Freedom of Choice", I am all for it. You can choose to live your life anyway you please and I will gladly fight for your right to make those choices even if they are harmful.

Well that's nice.
 
Well....... that could have been been balanced or very condescending.   Condescending as I continued............. So I'll edit down to


For example, I can think of one little segment on these boards.a few months ago that has really stuck with me. A certain slave recited a tale about how her Master owned a previous slave and preceded to "break her bones" to show her how extreme he was and how extreme the "no limits" relationship was. The defense of the Master was that he didnt want to do it, but had to do it because it was neccessary. Then the narrator proceeded to shift blame onto the slave because "she should have made sure she fully understood the details of the relationship before entering".

i must have missed this thread but would love to read it if you could provide the link.
 
DG. Perhaps you may not have noticed- threads like this one mentioned just 'dissappear'. I suppose it partly protects us as a community but more importantly protects COLLAR ME.   Perhaps the Moderators may comment on this phenomemon????


Now, when I read something like that and then proceed to watch people compliment the narrator and say things along the lines of "Aww, I understand the dynamic now and how it was necessary.", I think to myself...

Am I the last sane person on Earth?
 
Well, i don't know about that but when i read your very first reply here, i thought you were completely off your rocker.
 
DG, yes your perception! Rude criticism that certainly does not consider the rights of another to fair criticism.  Your self gratification at debasing another speaks volumes of your closeted views of what constitutes Rights.  These same views that you show by your words are in complete opposition to the integrity of KOM's original post.


 
The scenario is an utter offense to my rational mind and the reasoning of it all an utter insult to my intiellgence. The main regret I have right now was not actually sharing my own opinion of that completely ludicrous situation and I am somewhat glad I can correct it.

An insult to your intelligence?  Sounds like you're taking all this a bit too personally, no?
 
DG. Empathy is something you may claim but your words indicate that perhaps you should remember to remove your 'blinkers' after Pony Play.  Empathy extends beyond One's personal experiences.


I'll gladly support the right of anyone to make consentual and informed idiotic choices, but dont confuse my tolerance for respect.

i don't suppose you have to respect anyone you choose not to.

And when your lunacy becomes a problem in my own little part of Idaho, I will take action to correct it.

And would that mean in your home?  On your little space on the internet?  On the CM forums?  i just wonder what area this would have to occur in for you to feel "invaded".

Finnally, on a final note, while I would like to beleive that the simple statement of "If its consentual, then its ethical" can be the black and white absolute in which provides the ultimate solution to every single dilemna, I cant forget that Stocholm Syndrom, Battered Person's Syndome, emotional manipulation, fear of abandonment, codependcy, and blackmail do exist in the world and make the notion of "consent" far from black and white.

Woot!  Think we have a candidate for the Drama King (DK) award here!.  Any nominations?
 
What you are failing to grasp, MR, is that unless specifically asked for help, nobody cares about your opinion, your standards, your morals, etc...it all falls on deaf ears.  But you certainly do like to continue to spew how idiotic others are....as if others should, for some reason, be following the MR's code of ethics.  And you may think this reflects poorly on those who just don't seem to be following your sage advice....but it really reflects more poorly on you. 
 
i don't see anyone here asking you to interfere with their decisions on how they choose to live their lives with their partners.  Your "personal convictions" mean nothing to them.  Yet you seem to think you can actually save another from their "idiotic"  choices?  Sounds like you've got a lot to learn about life. 
 
So you can do this   or you can learn to voice your opinion, hope that someone listens, and move on....and that's all up to you.  Don't forget though that just as you form opinions of others, so do they of you...and right now, you might be looking like a bit of an idiot yourself.
 
Now hop along and have a good night!
 
DG
 
Well said Mad Rabbit.  Thankyou for futher enlightening me DG or should I type D.G.  to ensure a blazing reply.  Simply I don't expect a reply cos unlike this Mad Rabbit who is prepared to leave their hole, I expect a Daddy's Girl to bury their head whining about how unfairly Daddy's Girl was treated.
 
Many individuals and 'noteds' have said wonderful things over the years. MLK being the original speaker behind this thread however I reproduce this that can be googled.
 

A Precious Human Life
"Every day, think as you wake up,
Today I am fortunate to have woken up,
I am alive, I have a precious human life,
I am not going to waste it,
I am going to use
All my energies to develop myself.
To expand my heart out to others,
To achieve enlightenment for
The benefit of all beings,
I am going to have kind
thoughts towards others,
I am not going to get angry,
or think badly about others,
I am going to benefit others
As much as I can."

H.H. the XIVth Dalai Lama

Turning the other cheek does not talk of walking away, nor herald ignorance of helping your neighbour. 
 
 Let's forget about this crap of Global Warming, drive a Hummer, waste fossil fuel and live till we cook our neighbours beyond healthy living.
 
Ok, Drive a Hummer? I saw my first privately registered one on Australian Roads today.  No doubt there are more but?
 
I'll start a thread on post fossil fuel/global Warming Fetish Clothing.
 
Warm regards to all and Very Warm Regards to DG (not Domi G)   Driver.

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie


Actually I don't see MR looking like an idiot at all. In fact I see quite the opposite and you are showing yourself to be more the idiot in this case.

Why?  Because i am defending others' rights to live the way they choose without being called stupid because they don't take the proclaimed savior's advice?

I perfectly agree with MR that we are all entitled to do as we wish, to make our own choices and live as we like. I also agree that we are all entitled to our own opinions on how others live thier lives.

So do i.

You suggest that people post here and do not want others opinions. In that case why bother post. Why not just be happy in themselves and keep the details of their private lives, just that, private. Post details of you life on an open forum and you open yourself up to comment on your post. That is the whole point.

Some people come on here asking for advice.  Others come on just to share parts of their life...as Celeste did with her post.  They are encouraging conversation.....they are not asking to be saved....they are not asking "so what do you think about how i live my life?"  This is a forum for that purpose too, isn't it?
 
So if someone's only response can be a criticism of how that person lives their life, then my question is....why did that person bother to post?  And i do realize that when someone posts, it invokes opinions.  But do they have to be denigrating because someone doesn't "heed their advice" or agree with how they feel things should be done?
 
There are many extremes that i see here that i would not ever engage in, but that doesn't mean i feel someone is stupid or sick or whatever, if they do.  i guess that is the difference.  i don't care what they do as long as they are consenting and not dragging in some nonconsensual victim (better not to elaborate on that but you probably know what i mean). 

As MR said, if a poster here is happy, content and at peace with their choices, why would they be bothered by anothers opinion of their life.

It's just like anything else susie.  If someone says they like to eat shit and someone comes out and says that's wrong or stupid or whatever, people tend to get defensive.  It isn't the opinion that's upsetting....it's when it sounds berating that makes people respond that way.

Not one person posting here can say they are not judgemental. Even you. Look at what you posted yourself. You were judgemental in your post.

Hmm...let's see.  Actually, i am one of the most nonjudgmental people i know....and not just because i say so, but because everyone (yes, everyone) i know (in RL) tells me that.  i do place a high value on live and let live and as i previously mentioned, as long as there are no nonconsensual victims....i really don't care what you do.  (But i really do hate pedos and animal abusers.  Is that judgmental?)

If someone does not like to criticised for their postings it is best not to post at all.

Well that seems to be the mindset here.  "If you post i can berate you all i want, just because you posted."  Sounds kind of sad to me.
 
DG

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

 Hats off to those that that defend a person’s right to choose.
 
But standing ovation to those that balance it by speaking against harmful choices.  Within this lifestyle (considering all the risks and extremities that one could choose from) an important element in all discussions for the betterment of the individuals and the communities they exist in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

Well....... that could have been been balanced or very condescending.   Condescending as I continued............. So I'll edit down to
 
And that is exactly how i felt when i read MR's first line....until i read down further.

DG. Perhaps you may not have noticed- threads like this one mentioned just 'dissappear'. I suppose it partly protects us as a community but more importantly protects COLLAR ME.   Perhaps the Moderators may comment on this phenomemon????
 
Well that's really too bad it disappeared.  i would have enjoyed taking a peek at it.  i guess i just missed that thread altogether.


DG, yes your perception! Rude criticism that certainly does not consider the rights of another to fair criticism.  Your self gratification at debasing another speaks volumes of your closeted views of what constitutes Rights.  These same views that you show by your words are in complete opposition to the integrity of KOM's original post.
 
It certainly strikes me a bit funny that because i said i thought MR was off his rocker, i am accused of rude criticism but when MR calls people idiots for their stupid choices, that is not addressed at all.  Kinda funny, no?

DG. Empathy is something you may claim but your words indicate that perhaps you should remember to remove your 'blinkers' after Pony Play.  Empathy extends beyond One's personal experiences.
 
Wow...this is kinda funny too.  But anyhoo....if anyone can feel that what some stranger on the internet posts about what they choose to do in their lives insults their intelligence....then, that just sounds a little goofy to me.  i mean, i hear people directly involved in an incident (or even a one on one conversation) say that the other person insulted their intelligence....but from an internet post not even directed to him?  Well, that sounds like taking things a little too personally for me.


Well said Mad Rabbit.  Thankyou for futher enlightening me DG or should I type D.G.  to ensure a blazing reply.  Simply I don't expect a reply cos unlike this Mad Rabbit who is prepared to leave their hole, I expect a Daddy's Girl to bury their head whining about how unfairly Daddy's Girl was treated.
 
Well i guess you don't know me very well driver.  i really try to avoid "blazing replies".  And i doubt you will ever hear me whining about how unfairly i was treated.  That's really not my style. 
 
And warm regards to you too.
 
DG

 

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

EDITED
Nobody is saying you can't voice an opinion when you see someone who might be being harmed in some way;  and nobody is saying not to try to lend a helping hand.  But there comes a point when the other person may not want to hear you....and rather than risk alienating them and pushing them away....isn't it just wiser to say "i really feel you are making unwise, destructive, damaging, foolish, whatever, choices here....but i realize you are an adult and you are going to have to find your own way to do things....make mistakes....and suffer the consequences. I liken BDSM introduction to not a baptism of fire but a baptism to a raging bushfire/wildfire. 
 
Of course i have a lot more vested in my kids so would be more inclined to intervene....whereas with those on the net, they really have no direct bearing on my life....so i don't feel so compelled for them to "listen to me".
 
Fine for you DG, I can relate to these words but you don't feel "Compelled for them to listen to me"????
 
May I suggest you are posting this in an attempt to not only explain yourself to yourself but also to explain yourself to us?  You appear to attempt an act of selfishness not selflessness - that extending to others can be.  Or in other words; you seek to redress real personal reputation damage whereas many risk their reputations to redress what may be real personal physical damage for others online.  Let's face it- it's not like the average Online Newbie can just go and talk face to face with an experienced person.   (Many threads have been logged on this)
 
  Some 10 to 15% of communication is by words- the rest is intonation, physical movements etc.  What I sometimes read based upon this 10 to 15%  it frankly scares me.  Plus I realise how unduly this % can influence other's health without face to face communication.
 
This post of yours appears to show more introspection and acknowledgement that your words may have an effect upon others. 
 
I didn't expect you to re-post here nor I suspect did others.   Your tone now exhibits some more careful consideration.   I dips My lid to you DG.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

good googly moogly adaddysgirl....i have no idea what your post was about, i didn't even try to read it....just don't do it again...can i offer you this hint.... along with [ quote ] to open a quote box you can close a quote box with [ / quote ] and then comment and then open, quote, close, comment, open, quote, close, comment...you get the pattern....that was just horriffic and i am now having homicidal urges so i am not going to try to read it again 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Driver1961

I didn't expect you to re-post here nor I suspect did others.   Your tone now exhibits some more careful consideration.   I dips My lid to you DG.
 
i wonder why you would think that Driver?  Quite honestly, i don't have a lot of time for many of the threads here...but the ones of real interest to me (like this one)...i rather enjoy....both reading and responding to (obviously!)
 
i don't aspire to be a rude poster....and it seems that almost any defense i take is not on my behalf.  But, i guess that's just what inspires me to write.  Who knows?
 
BTW....i was told to go piss up a rope the other day....so i guess what you said was rather mild compared to that.  It takes all kinds, don't it?
 
DG

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

i would really hate to have you act on those homicidal urges.  Someone could get hurt!
 
DG

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I think I have to agree with Celeste (Bita).

I have been thinking about this alot the last couple days when I have had the chance.

I get, that wanting to help someone is a human tendency. Been there, tried it. What I have found is that most people just purely don't really want it. Especially if it can in ANY WAY be perceived as an attack on their judgement or that of someone they love.

I am at the point now where I honestly believe that we choose our life paths, either conciously or subconciously, based upon things we need to learn, things we need to go through.

Now, for those that are going to jump all over that with all sorts of examples, don't bother. I get it and have heard it from you enough times before.

I just look back at my own life and some of the assinine choices I made, things that hurt me or people I love. Of course there were people trying to dissuade me. Did I listen? HELL NO!! I sincerely thought I was right. All their mamby pamby little "poor naive LeeAnn" talks did was piss me off. "How DARE they even begin to assume they know what is best for me!!" Regardless of how it was presented. And you know, of course some of them were right about some of the issues, but the reality is, I needed to go through that stuff. I needed to make the choices I did. It made me the person I am today and I like that person.

What I did listen to were those that said things like, " I am worried about you, are you okay?" or " I cannot agree with your choices but I love you, support you, and am here for you". It kept the lines of communication open. Those are the people that stayed in my life.

So, regardless of what someone else chooses for their life and wether or not I feel it is a correct choice...........most of it, I feel I need to keep my big yap shut.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

What if the statement went something like this:
 
“One has not only the right of choice, but a moral responsibility to support another’s right to choose.  Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to rise against harmful choices!”