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Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 4:38:16 AM   
NorthernGent


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What are your thoughts on the concept of free will?

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 4:51:41 AM   
Politesub53


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Nice question NG.

Free will is something we all like to think we have. In many ways thats true, we can do whatever we like, yet circumstances prevent us from doing so. We can break the law, but the thought of jail or being a social outcast to friends and family prevents that. We can do what we like at work, yet know if we do our careers wont progress. Most humans do what it takes to survive in the best way we are able, sadly this means we often have to go against our free will to achieve this.

So basically we can have free will provided we are willing to face the consequences. The one thing no one can take away though, is free thinking.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 5:00:52 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
What are your thoughts on the concept of free will?


A nice concept but people are controlled by their greed and their need to survive and care for those they love. We shall call the element used to control people money. You could all live as homeless people but you wouldn’t be free because you would still have to find something to eat.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 5:40:23 AM   
Real0ne


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it would be akin to my sovereign citizen posts where one persons free will ends is where another begins





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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:03:11 AM   
UR2Badored


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I cannot see this term with out bellowing:

"If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will"
Far too complicated for me to debate about  since some deciding factors are way beyond my/our control......hindsight will always be 20/20..........I guess I would lean toward being a imcompatibilist if I had to pick a side.


< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/30/2007 6:08:01 AM >


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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:19:33 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So basically we can have free will provided we are willing to face the consequences.



We certainly agree on one point: we can choose to conform or reject, the consequences act as incentives rather than the decision making force.

Where does your environment come into this? Do you react to it, or are you free from it?

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:21:09 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
What are your thoughts on the concept of free will?


A nice concept but people are controlled by their greed and their need to survive and care for those they love. We shall call the element used to control people money. You could all live as homeless people but you wouldn’t be free because you would still have to find something to eat.


'Not quite with you here, Full Circle, I'm struggling to grasp the notion that eating = slavery :-)

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:22:15 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

it would be akin to my sovereign citizen posts where one persons free will ends is where another begins



In other words, to an extent, we're slaves to our environment?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:25:02 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

I cannot see this term with out bellowing:

"If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will"
Far too complicated for me to debate about  since some deciding factors are way beyond my/our control......hindsight will always be 20/20..........I guess I would lean toward being a imcompatibilist if I had to pick a side.



Agreed, although I don't lean towards incompatibilist.

We all have a choice, even when it appears we don't. Someone puts a gun to your head and demands money, you can choose to conform, or try and grab the gun.

When you say incompatibilist, what does this mean for your opinion on free will?

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:30:11 AM   
UR2Badored


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Hey :), I told you this was far too complicated for me to debate...........I confess I am hypocrite......because I also believe in rush's lyrics:
"If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice"

But also believe that freewill is far outside the scope of what we can control to make a choice to begin with........I could start my own thread and debate with only my self and never be completely satisfied with my answer. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

We all have a choice, even when it appears we don't. Someone puts a gun to your head and demands money, you can choose to conform, or try and grab the gun.


Is peeing in my pants free will or a bladder control problem?

Is a choice really free will?

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/30/2007 6:41:28 AM >


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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:40:20 AM   
kirii


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The concept of free will. From reading the posts that follow, I have to ask if you are instead asking us how we feel about Free will vs. Determinism?

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:41:56 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UR2Badored

Is peeing in my pants free will or a bladder control problem?



In my mind, it's not free will if you genuinely have a bladder problem. You're making a choice, but choice and free will are not one and the same. I'd strongly advise against it, mind you.

I take your point that there's no definitive answer, and we're speaking from a position of limited understanding: it doesn't mean we can't discuss it, though. Plus, you might learn toilet training hints ;-)

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:43:32 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirii

The concept of free will. From reading the posts that follow, I have to ask if you are instead asking us how we feel about Free will vs. Determinism?



Kirii, no, feel free to post anything you like regarding free will; if that includes a take on determinism, then be my guest.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:45:49 AM   
UR2Badored


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I take your point that there's no definitive answer, and we're speaking from a position of limited understanding: it doesn't mean we can't discuss it, though. Plus, you might learn toilet training hints ;-)

I am not disagreeing that these things should or should not be discussed.....I look forward to discovering where this thread leads.   My question to you though is
do you think a choice is free will in itself despite a choice being made with limited options to an unforeseen outcome?

I suppose I have idealistic views on what  free will should be of which taints my perception of it all together.  I view free will, right or wrong, as having the freedom to make the best choice or decision in every possible circumstance thereby full control of our outcome even though it does not actually mean that literally......I have taken this concept and cannot resist my own flawed perception of idealism.  Therefore, with my flaw, I see a tragedy as something out of my control and choices we make in consequence of that tragedy are not necessarily a choice that falls in line with free will but forced on us.  This probably does not make alot of sense but I am putting it out there all the same.  Maybe I should be internally question myself:
exercising "free will" versus undetermined outcomes of choices.

Perhaps given the ideal situation "free will" can be at liberty to prevail.   

< Message edited by UR2Badored -- 9/30/2007 7:17:16 AM >


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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:53:48 AM   
kirii


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J

I find the arguments for both to be quite interesting; both are easily proved or disproved. However, I have found myself more in line with the determinist argument.
Everything that happens does so for a reason; a cause.
Every action that a human performs is an event that was caused by ‘something’
(“ universal causality”)
When you add in the argument of free will, it is believed that human beings can change; therefore removing the idea that everything happens in an order predetermined.
I think ( not I believe ) that our ability to change though is based on past events ( things taught, learned, seen, etc ). It is this thinking that tells me that determinism is more prevalent than free will.

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 6:54:37 AM   
Termyn8or


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There is no such thing as freedom, but there is free will. My Father says when you for example, go to court, while there you kowtow to their will, act respectful all that, and as soon as you walk out the door it is FUCK YOU. They can lock up your body but they can't lock up your mind.

As stated in a fictional blueprint for the human race which seems to be in effect, but dismissed summarily by people who watch Fox news, freedom cannot be obtained. Noone knows how to use it with restraint. I submit that if your freedom needs restraint it is not truly freedom.

To turn to another fictional book taken as absolute truth and gospel by those who watch Fox news, Adan and Eve were free. No clothes no nuthin, oh, but wait, there was this one tree. So they got kicked out.

I believe to be free one would have to be the last person on Earth.

Free will is defined contemporarily as a choice within certain confines or a certain range. For example my buddy has the free will to drive his motorcycle or his pickup truck over to come for a visit. What happens to that free will if it is raining ?

As I see the world, and age and learn and "season" so to speak, I am starting to think that the word free should never have been invented. Freedom does not exist, it never has and never will. That is not really a bad thing, and I am not talking about tyrannical governments or anything like that.

No matter what your will, conditions may prevent you from exercising it. That is a fact of life. Even sans government, you are free to walk into that bear's cave, and get eaten alive. You are free to swim with the sharks, expect similar results. You are free to do illegal things or break the law (there is a difference), but that entails a risk. I think that is precisely where free will can be defined. When you gamble, or take chances of any kind. When you choose to take a risk, whether it is legal or not, that is exercise of free will.

But the opposite is also true. If you choose not to take a risk that also qualifies. For example there have been seatbelt requirements on the books for years, but some people wore them religiously long before the "law". Those people decided to believe the hype and made a decision to wear a seat belt to avoid taking a certain risk. Others, the small, people who know that they could be hurt real bad in an accident wore them out of common sense. Back when I was immortal I used to cut them out of my cars. I agree that it was stupid, but that was an exercise of free will just the same as one who insists on wearing them.

Freedom is dead, and it was never alive. It is but a dream, a concept, not reality. Free will on the other hand is exercised every day, but it's scope is contained by many forces, not the least of which is nature herself.

My buddy BTW, when it is not raining and he rides the Harley, well he doesn't have the proper endorsement on his license so he is required to wear a helmet. None of us are that stupid, even him, and he is not the brightest of our crowd. But he has reasoned it out, I think correctly.

If you happen to fall down at a stoplight or crash the bike at say 10 MPH that helmet could be a lifesaver. But at 70 MPH down the freeway, if you wreck you do not want to be wearing a helmet. All that does for you is to keep your brain alive long enough to feel the pain as the flesh is ground off of your body as your bones are pulverized. You're going to die anyway, so take that second or third hit to the noggin and be done with it.

I feel like playing some Rush - Free Will right now at 400 watts or so. My amp is fried but I have a lesser amp hooked up in the meantime. But I do not want anyone to know I am awake right now, so it is my free will to not play it, or play it at a very low level.

And this reminds me of a few words of that song - "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice". I agree.

Free will actually is real and is not a concept like freedom. It is the exercise of free will upon which the forces and society place limits. Even normal decency and sensibility limit it. I'd like to have a piece of that blonde down the street, why don't I just go bean her with a rock and drag her into my bedroom ? Because a bunch of her family are my neighbors. Some find it hard to believe that the law is not even in consideration here, but that is the way I am.

So let's say I could get away with it, catch her late when everybody else is sleeping. Do my dirty work and get rid of the body. Well the reason I will not even consider doing it is because she has two houses of kinfolk in my neighborhood. These are people I like and get along with. Not to mention that there is another level of constraint, COMMON DECENCY.

I mean I think rapists should be killed for being assholes. Anyone who does that has no cohesion to society, no emapthy for others, nothing. It is a sub human. If I were able to exercise my free will, they would be executed. Not for rape, but for being the type of person who would rape.

Yes, I know that is unusual. If I lived in a society where the law was just, and applied fairly to all and not complex to the point of being gibberish, I would uphold the law, as would every Citizen.

Many people are indocrinated with the idea that the law is what tells you right from wrong. And within the free will context I really do believe that people do want to do right, even if only by their family, chosen family, friends, coworkers, homeys, whatever they got. Sometimes it is "Fuck everybody else", sometimes it is not. Many choices exist even within the narrow legal confines of this society. Choices with a heavy impact on the lives of others'. For example if someone wants to borrow money, I have the choice to do it or refuse.

Everything depends on circumstances. Could be a guy with plenty of money, but is a dollar short right now to get another case of beer on Friday. Or it could be a longtime friend who has been out of work and just got called back, and needs a tank of gas to get to work. What do you do ?

THAT is free will.

T

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:02:21 AM   
Termyn8or


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AN ASIDE

Holy shit this thread is busy. I got done typoing and there were a shitload more posts.

WOW. Maybe there's no more need for IRC lol.

NG, good topic, you seem to have awoken people, perhaps the dead even it seems. Now I gotta go back and read the replies that were replied and replied to while I was replying.

Sorry folks, I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to proof that sentence. I don't get headaches, but that would give me one.

T

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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:04:05 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What are your thoughts on the concept of free will?


I'm free to eat a Ghirardelli dark chocolate bar for breakfast.   Now, I might pay for that in a number of ways, but I AM exercising  free will.

<giggle>



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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:06:07 AM   
came4U


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quote:

We can break the law, but the thought of jail or being a social outcast to friends and family prevents that.


Do we then have 'free will' if we obey a society's norms (mores and morals)? Or are we just merely following the will of the state/culture?


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RE: Free Will.... - 9/30/2007 7:13:21 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Where does your environment come into this? Do you react to it, or are you free from it?


You have the free will to live in any enviroment you choose, but you react to it to enable you to live there. I enjoy being on the coast, summer is great but winter is wet and windy, so i need to provide clothes and shelter to enable me to live through the winter.

If i wanted to live in Beverly Hills i would need to have the kind of job that provided the means to do so. If you are talking about societal constraints such as local taxes, then i have the free will to pay up and stay put, or not pay and move on to a cheaper area.

What are your own views NG ?

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