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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:34:59 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I also thought of another issue relating to the DNA database which I’m not happy with. What if the information is passed onto insurance companies so that they can asses if you are likely to die of caner or break bones due to having osteoporosis? If you think the government wouldn’t share such information you only have to look at how the government handles information from the DVLA which is available for purchase. You never know which government will have access to this information in the future and how they may utilise it.

Ah, but FC - if you are healthy you have nothing to fear! And of course, if you follow government advice on being healthy then you will be healthy.

Proving you didnt smoke or take drugs, proving you ate five portions of fruit and veg a day, proving you took 30 minutes' exercise every day could be a problem though of course.

So, to get around this we'll issue identity cards which will also record these things, for your benefit of course.

E

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Post #: 21

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:35:06 AM

pahunkboy

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-being devils advocate this monring- mr policeman is your friend. not when he or she makes you mad by ticketing you; but for keeping the masses in civil mode. as bad as the legal system is- it is what we have.

Law enforcement, at least in the US varies by locality. Some places you wont get help when you call 911.

A good many officers are decent pofessional. Without law and order- only the brutest would be ok. [yes I hated getting tickets and hated getting in legal hot water...; but on the flip side a huge amount of crime in this jurisdiction WILL be caught and punished]

Now - off to the donut shack! ;-0

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 22

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:38:00 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I'd rather deal with the cause than the symptoms in all this - and the cause to me is plain - a system which is entirely outdated by which we elect governments based on a minority of the electorate having chosen them but which have disproportionate power to pretty much do as they please.

The only party pushing for proportional representation is the Liberal Democrats and we all know why that is. In a system where you have to make a second choice who will most people choose? No system is perfect and first past the post is a complete nonsense also but the thing that is most wrong with the system is party politics; the whips have too much control and most people are voting for lemmings because of this.

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Post #: 23

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:40:03 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What is required in my opinion, is proportional representation

Agreed. As you say, government underpinned by 40% of the people, is flawed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

and compulsory voting

I don't think coercion is the way forward; there needs to be the will to exercise the right to a stake in the nation in order to make representation a worthwhile exercise.

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Post #: 24

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:41:13 AM

FatherMayi

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I've been reading this thread ever since it started ...

Lets just take it the simple way and DNA sample the entire population of planet earth from day one ... forget ther police state, hello the police planet!

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 25

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:42:00 AM

pahunkboy

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DNA has freed dozens who were wrongly convicted. the govt can do what it wills. tho- it is a slippery slope as the RFID chip is how many years off??? before it is mainstream...for your security of course!!!!!!!!!! argh

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 26

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:47:00 AM

LadyEllen

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I did qualify "compulsory voting" with the option to select "none of the above" I think you'll find.

What I want to get over is the innate disinterest and laziness that is plaguing our system and allowing governments with minority support from doing whatever they please.

We have the country we deserve, when we have a nation that is lazy and disinterested and this laziness and disinterest is cultivated by a two party system which relies upon it.

E

_____________________________

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Post #: 27

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:47:53 AM

FatherMayi

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but on the flip side, how long were those in jail for a crime they didn't commit before DNA evidence cleared them?

of course the govenment can do what they like ... people voted them into power didn't they?

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 28

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:50:22 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I think it depends on your point of view. CCTV means that one controller can be in twelve places at the same time monitoring, just as you would expect police officers to be patrolling in those locations. Would anyone be moaning if the police were seen everywhere instead of the cameras? Also if you are in a public place what right do you have to privacy anyway?

Yes, I wouldn't be happy with the police all over the streets, but then again, I don't believe England is awash with danger and violence. In terms of the right to privacy in a public space, there is a big difference between mixing with the public and respecting each others' space, and being watched by the law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I also thought of another issue relating to the DNA database which I’m not happy with. What if the information is passed onto insurance companies so that they can asses if you are likely to die of caner or break bones due to having osteoporosis? If you think the government wouldn’t share such information you only have to look at how the government handles information from the DVLA which is available for purchase. You never know which government will have access to this information in the future and how they may utilise it.

'Couldn't agree more. Then we have the issue of mapping out peoples' future lives; they may decide to separate future accountants from future teachers at ean early age, and send children down that path. There are endless possibilities with a national DNA database.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 29

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:55:18 AM

HaveRopeWillBind

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PA - no RFID chip is needed since soon virtually everyone will be carrying a trackable cell phone. Here in the US they are currently setting up a system similar to the one in the UK used for cell phone tracking but it's taking longer to set up due to the greater area of coverage required. In most of the UK currently when you turn your GSM cell phone on it is instantly located and tagged. From that point UK police can actually track you even if you turn your cell phone off and leave it home. This is because there are so many cell phones and each one acts like a tiny radar transmitter. This creates a sort of continuous signal "fog" but the signals bounce off your body so your own body becomes a hole in the fog. This hole can actually be tracked by computers in real time 3D. So after you turn on your phone and by doing so identify yourself, they can still track your movements even if you leave the phone behind. This system has been in place and functional in the UK for years and the intelligence/law enforcement types here in the US can't wait to have it operational here as well.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 30

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:57:54 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatherMayi
but on the flip side, how long were those in jail for a crime they didn't commit before DNA evidence cleared them?

of course the govenment can do what they like ... people voted them into power didn't they?

Even if they are voted in by a majority there is still a constitution that limits what powers they have and dictates issues they should seek a referendum on. The problem here is this current labour government is creating overlapping laws to avoid this. Seven new laws have come into effect per day since labour came into power. Computer programmers call this obtusification I think.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/04/nlaws04.xml

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Post #: 31

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:59:53 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I did qualify "compulsory voting" with the option to select "none of the above" I think you'll find.

What I want to get over is the innate disinterest and laziness that is plaguing our system and allowing governments with minority support from doing whatever they please.

Yeah, I know, and my point was/is that coercion is not the best method of restoring faith in the democratic process. People have to want that stake in the process, but I suppose it is not in the interests of the establishment to have a well educated population.

I've resisted the urge so far, but the time has arrived........

The monarchy: how can we possibly hope for a country that takes a genuine interest in the nation when we have an unelected body acting as head of state. If we want a meritocracy, then the monarchy has to go.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 32

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:01:03 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind

PA - no RFID chip is needed since soon virtually everyone will be carrying a trackable cell phone. Here in the US they are currently setting up a system similar to the one in the UK used for cell phone tracking but it's taking longer to set up due to the greater area of coverage required. In most of the UK currently when you turn your GSM cell phone on it is instantly located and tagged. From that point UK police can actually track you even if you turn your cell phone off and leave it home. This is because there are so many cell phones and each one acts like a tiny radar transmitter. This creates a sort of continuous signal "fog" but the signals bounce off your body so your own body becomes a hole in the fog. This hole can actually be tracked by computers in real time 3D. So after you turn on your phone and by doing so identify yourself, they can still track your movements even if you leave the phone behind. This system has been in place and functional in the UK for years and the intelligence/law enforcement types here in the US can't wait to have it operational here as well.

Walmart is set to switch from UPC codes to RFIDs in product. So- everythiing you carry/own will soon be tracked from store to the garbage dump. yikes! [BTW- place the item in the microwve for a bit and it disables the chip]

(in reply to HaveRopeWillBind)

Post #: 33

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:03:28 AM

FatherMayi

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@ FullCircle

And what makes you think plans are not already afoot to get around this so-called constitution? No such thing as a referendum needed ... point in case, the signing away of the UK's laws etc to Brussels and the European Parliament.

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 34

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:13:46 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

my manchester man
crippling taxes - the left get out on the streets and do something about it......

I know you accuse me of picking on you NG but you post such thoughtless points. By and large its the left that wants to tax us senseless. All for the greater good, which very rarely emerges. Education being the perfect example.

If you are are thinking of the Poll Tax then this was Thatcher's attempt to destabilise left wing constituencies by increasing their tax liability and reducing the liability of her own likely supportors. Where the overall balance would have occured I am not sure but the point is it was not a tax raising excercise per se.
In fact the banding solution probably resulted in quite a few paying more than they would have done had a flat rate been imposed. I agree many wealthy would have payed much less on the flat rate system.
Which side of the political spectrum supports inheritance tax. ?

As for the UK being a Police state. Those who think yes simply dont know what the term means. IMO.
Thats a point from someone who thinks that faced with everyday criminality our Police are not much use.

Nanny State is nearer the mark !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/7/2007 7:17:48 AM >

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 35

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:20:46 AM

FullCircle

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Joined: 11/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatherMayi
@ FullCircle
And what makes you think plans are not already afoot to get around this so-called constitution? No such thing as a referendum needed ... point in case, the signing away of the UK's laws etc to Brussels and the European Parliament.

Nothing makes me think that in fact I see it happening all the time. The last issue that was debated as to if a referendum was required was the forming of an EU constitution. This only came about after intense public pressure on the government. Before that debate they’d have you believe it was insignificant change that didn’t affect anyone.

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Post #: 36

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:25:21 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I know you accuse me of picking on you NG but you post such thoughtless points. By and large its the left that wants to tax us senseless. All for the greater good, which very rarely emerges. Education being the perfect example.

By and large, taxes are similar between the two main parties: the differences arise in the areas of who are taxed and where the money is spent. Around 1992, the likes of Murdoch were paying no net corporation tax on billions of pounds of profit earned in Britain, and we had old age pensioners dying because they couldn't afford to heat their homes. Look it up, if you're unsure.

As far as I can tell, the majority do not want to dampen innovation and enterprise, some of us want to see investment in the grass roots, though; if you earn on the back of society, then you put something back in. That's my philosophy.

Anyway, back to the police state: how do you define a police state?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 37

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:27:06 AM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
As for the UK being a Police state. Those who think yes simply dont know what the term means. IMO.
Thats a point from someone who thinks that faced with everyday criminality our Police are not much use.
Nanny State is nearer the mark !

It is both a nanny state and a police state; they should stop telling us they know best all the time and leave us alone. I really can't see how you think you are freer than those outside the UK. True in some places you'd be shot dead for having an opinion but that hardly makes the UK look good when they shoot people dead for running to catch a train and then jump hoops trying to prove it was an honest mistake.

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Post #: 38

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:30:01 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I've resisted the urge so far, but the time has arrived........

The monarchy: how can we possibly hope for a country that takes a genuine interest in the nation when we have an unelected body acting as head of state. If we want a meritocracy, then the monarchy has to go.

I think we've been over this before, several times. I dont see any reason to replace the monarchy as head of state with any form of elected office. All we do thereby is change the problems of an unelected monarchy occupying that position, with the problems which plague the greasy pole politics we have.

The monarchy as head of state occupies a purely symbolic role as I see it - they have no powers whatever - what powers they supposedly have are purely symbolic too. An elected president meanwhile has a mandate so should be permitted to take part in government. A symbolic presidency would be no different to a symbolic monarchy. The one thing going for the monarchy is continuity and a disinterest in the political system.

The position of the monarchy is only up for change in my opinion, if we can produce a new solution which is an improvement rather than simply a change.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 39

RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 7:33:59 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I've resisted the urge so far, but the time has arrived........

The monarchy: how can we possibly hope for a country that takes a genuine interest in the nation when we have an unelected body acting as head of state. If we want a meritocracy, then the monarchy has to go.

I think we've been over this before, several times. I dont see any reason to replace the monarchy as head of state with any form of elected office. All we do thereby is change the problems of an unelected monarchy occupying that position, with the problems which plague the greasy pole politics we have.

The monarchy as head of state occupies a purely symbolic role as I see it - they have no powers whatever - what powers they supposedly have are purely symbolic too. An elected president meanwhile has a mandate so should be permitted to take part in government. A symbolic presidency would be no different to a symbolic monarchy. The one thing going for the monarchy is continuity and a disinterest in the political system.

The position of the monarchy is only up for change in my opinion, if we can produce a new solution which is an improvement rather than simply a change.

E

Elected representatives: it's that simple.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 40

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