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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 2:51:55 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		...respectfully Politesub, it seems to me you let the police off extremely lightly, while throwing blame on the marchers. If the rioting was inexcusable, then so was the police violence that preceded it. Batoning people trying to avoid being crushed against steel barriers is not just poor crowd control...it is state excused violence.
Lady Ellen is also right to point at the historical context of how the police force had been politicised by Thatcher. Police violence against (initially) peaceful protestors was nothing new at the time. The battle of the bean field being a prime example.To condemn people for fighting back is simply not fair......

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:03:43 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Philospophy....On reflection you are correct, although the behaviour of some of the rioters had no excuse the rioting lasted until 3 am and almost all the crowd had dispersed way before then.

As to blaming Thatcher the police of that era had been just as bad, stemming back to Grunwick under labour. That all leads back to the anti Vietnam demos of the late 60s and later when the police lost control in Red Lion Square. (Anti NF demo i think )  During that march the police just charged the crowd, im pretty sure Wilson was in power but it may have been Ted Heath.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:06:22 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Philospophy....On reflection you are correct, although the behaviour of some of the rioters had no excuse the rioting lasted until 3 am and almost all the crowd had dispersed way before then.

As to blaming Thatcher the police of that era had been just as bad, stemming back to Grunwick under labour. That all leads back to the anti Vietnam demos of the late 60s and later when the police lost control in Red Lion Square. (Anti NF demo i think )  During that march the police just charged the crowd, im pretty sure Wilson was in power but it may have been Ted Heath.


...true.........the role of the police force had been chipped away at for a while. However, Thatcher systematically employed them as a political tool. That was new....and heinous.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:12:00 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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Status: offline 		Polite,
The signal is actually provided by all the cell phones surrounding you that are not switched off. Once the tracking computer has identified you after you have used your own phone then it no longer needs your phone active to continue to track you. You have been identified by using your own phone.

You can be tracked until you either come into full contact with another person or enter an area so crowded with others that it becomes impossible to pick you out. However this has to be a lot of people crammed in close proximity such as a crowd waiting in a theatre line or standing on a subway platform awaiting a train. By the way the system will work underground as long as there are enough other cell phones turned on around you and there is a cell repeater in the area.

The weakness of this system is that it can be fooled if someone else uses your phone and then is tracked while it is thought to be you and you are in fact in a completely different place.

The genisis of this system was when someone realized that inert bodies in space could be identified by the "hole" they created in the background noise. Some smart scientist or engineer realized that the signal fog created by the huge numbers of cell phones in use could be used in much the same way. The computer system used for this can literally track the entire population of the UK once each person has used a phone and by doing so has"tagged" him/herself in the tracking computers.

Once the UK system was up and operational and had proved itself the US law enforcement types began pushing to have the US change from the old analog cell systerm to a digital system.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:16:37 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		that is intersting but- for a while one could buy jammers online. the jammer disables cell signals. movie theators wanted to use these - and other businesses also.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:17:29 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Haverope....I can see how a chip could stay and send out a signal once activated, surely you would need to carry the phone on you though. Not leave it at home as before.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:19:28 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Philosophy to be fair to Thatcher one government had been brought down by striking miners. you need to recall all the chaos that was the 70s and the three day week ect. It seemed to be determination by unions to control the government at any cost to the people.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:25:16 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Real...I had heard about operation Northwoods before, although a few rogue generals isnt the same as the US governement. I have no doubt things like this ( unauthorized events ) still take place in almost every Country on the planet, mine included


Polite:
the joint chiefs arent considered rogue here???


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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:25:51 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Haverope that sounds interesting, do you have any sort of information on it, like the name of the program or something.  It really sounds more like a tv show than reality.  That would mean that they could tell the location and indentify every object and creature in the cell area, and then know which one a specific individual was and follow it around.  Yes, if you can GPS/triangulate the location of all cell phones, you could identify points where there was not a cell phone, but actually track a person who has no phone?  I am not sure I buy it, but I could be wrong, and would be very interested to see more info.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:26:41 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Politesub you beat me to it I was going to make exactly that point.
There was a lot of violence, flying squads and secondary picketing carried out by the miners in the 70s

In fact you could argue it was the shock of the 70s,the miners in particular,  that gave MrsT her chance. It is certainly the reason she changed Trade Union laws, "tooled" up the police, waited her time and out manouvered (sp?) Scargill.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 10/7/2007 3:28:45 PM >

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:38:54 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Real.....what i was getting at is it seemed the Government were unaware of the joint chiefs intentions.

Seeks Scargill out manouvered himself when he stated on TV "We are going to bring down this government"

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:50:32 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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Status: offline 		Polite,
Once the tracking system has tagged the hole in the signal fog that your body creates then it can continue to track that hole without the phone being on or even present. Esentially this can last until your hole comes into contact with someone else's hole or is lost in a crowd of them that are too close to differentiate. This is because even though your body can be electrically conductive and in some cases even generate a low level RF signal, it is essentially signal inert in the frequency band that cell phones use.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 3:53:04 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Ok i can undertsand that, but what about when you are not in a crowd. IE how many people do you need around you, and how close do they need to be ?

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:04:46 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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Status: offline 		Polite,
From what I understand of the system if you are not in a crowd you need to come into actual physical contact with someone else to make the tracking come into doubt. Of course they still have the option of tracking both signals once they separate so if you really want to break the track you would need a big close crowd. Maybe attend a football game in a tight stadium. Packed crowd at a concert or horse race would work as well, anything where you have lots of people packed together. Of course using this technique to break a track only works until you use your phone again. I've been told that this system is so precise that you could be tracked to within 2 feet, even if you are on the 50th floor of a skyscraper it can track your position horizontally and vertically. Another way to break the tracking ability would be if you could get most of the people in a half mile radius to turn off their phones. Though that's pretty unlikely unless you're in the middle of some large crowd protesting government.

To be honest since this system has been operational for quite a while now I have wondered why the UK bothered with all the surveillance cameras unless they are simply a ruse.

< Message edited by HaveRopeWillBind -- 10/7/2007 4:06:22 PM >

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:09:56 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Haverope..... i cant find any links about this on the web, i would be curious to have a read about it. I did find two disturbing reports though.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/spy-laws-track-mobile-phones/2007/09/16/1189881342905.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/spy-laws-track-mobile-phones/2007/09/16/1189881342905.html

Both a clear breach of any kind of privacy.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:27:49 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Real.....what i was getting at is it seemed the Government were unaware of the joint chiefs intentions.

Seeks Scargill out manouvered himself when he stated on TV "We are going to bring down this government"


§ 151. Joint Chiefs of Staff: composition; functions
How Current is This?
(a) Composition.— There are in the Department of Defense the Joint Chiefs of Staff, headed by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The Joint Chiefs of Staff consist of the following:
(1) The Chairman.
(2) The Vice Chairman.
(3) The Chief of Staff of the Army.
(4) The Chief of Naval Operations.
(5) The Chief of Staff of the Air Force.
(6) The Commandant of the Marine Corps.
(b) Function as Military Advisers.—
(1) The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the principal military adviser to the President, the National Security Council, the Homeland Security Council, and the Secretary of Defense.
(2) The other members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are military advisers to the President, the National Security Council, the Homeland Security Council, and the Secretary of Defense as specified in subsections (d) and (e).
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000151----000-.html



What i am trying to say is this is big and about as far beyond rogue as it can get.

All that needs to be done after the pres reads that advisory is a phone call to the cia and then sit back and wait for the time bomb to go off.

Thats how  it works.

To say rogue is nearly an infinite downplayon your part.  look at who is all included.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:31:46 PM   
HaveRopeWillBind


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Status: offline 		Polite,
I got my information about this system primarilly from a DEA agent who was a flight student of mine. (At the time the DEA was slobbering all over itself in jealousy and was doing everything possible to get the technology here as well.) Obviously because of his job I can't source him here, however I keep getting little snippets of additional information from news or PC magazines, etc. frequently enough that I am sure that he told me the truth about it all.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:45:50 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		HaveRope.....Thank you..... It has been possible to track a mobile to within as little as 10 mtrs for a while. I have never heard of the new technology.

Real...I dont doubt that what you say could happen. Maybe we are talking at cross purposes as i am sure the administartion didnt know about the Northwood project, at least initially.

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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 4:57:13 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

HaveRope.....Thank you..... It has been possible to track a mobile to within as little as 10 mtrs for a while. I have never heard of the new technology.

Real...I dont doubt that what you say could happen. Maybe we are talking at cross purposes as i am sure the administartion didnt know about the Northwood project, at least initially.



it was proposed to kennedy, kennedy rejected it and also wanted to dissmantle the cia!  

The same was done with using pnac.apparently bush did not reject it.  hence the iraq quagmire.  they get these kinds of proposals all thet time.

It does not have to go through congress and the rest of the gov.


My point being that governments are more than willing to kill their own people (collateral damage), and northwoods is hard proof of that in black and white.

No government can be rtusted. especially when the people are powerless to do anything about it.



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/7/2007 5:03:13 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: UK Already a Police State? - 10/7/2007 6:43:34 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Philosophy to be fair to Thatcher one government had been brought down by striking miners. you need to recall all the chaos that was the 70s and the three day week ect. It seemed to be determination by unions to control the government at any cost to the people.


...perhaps so, but politicising the police was an appalling act. Essentially breaking the contract between the police and the public. We have to be sure that when the government breaks the law the police are on the side of law....not an auxillary tool of government.

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