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Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:46:15 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
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Status: offline 		Friends ---

A few years ago, I was looking at a book on the Civil War. There was a photo of a slave collar and shackles, and I felt a brief surge of excitement. Then cold reality sank in: This was not BDSM gear I was seeing. These were artifacts of misery, tools of an institution that oppressed millions.

That scene came to mind today as I followed the Gorean thread about nonconsensual slavery. Thirty-six precent of poll respondents said that they believed in nonconsensual slavery. That stunned me. It's possible, I realize, they had in mind some Gorean vision rather than real-life slavery as it's been practiced on Earth. But still.

Looking at a few slavery-related threads, I came across some interesting observations: Slavery might not seem so bad if we did it Roman style rather than American style. Nature approves of slavery. It's a shame we can't have legal ownership of another person here in the U.S. We might be able to update the institution of slavery to make it work for modern times.

All this has left me wondering if we're at risk of romanticizing slavery. Do our easy use of the word slave, our iconization of slave collars, and our interest (from whatever angle) in dominance and submission blind us to the true horrors of slavery? Are we forgetting that consensual slavery is the exception rather than the rule? Does anyone else feel discomfort at sharing language and symbols with one of the great evils of human history?

I'm sure this has been pondered and discussed before, but I couldn't find a thread that raised quite these questions. So I'm interested to hear what folks think.

Thanks,

DC

<Edited to fix typos>

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/6/2007 10:14:28 PM >

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:50:14 PM   
RRafe


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Status: offline 		Yes, we do. The old way was mo limits, no escape-and a surrounding society that enforced it.

I a lot of cultures, you could kill a slave with no worries about getting in trouble-they were property. But we romaticise a lot of really silly things in bdsm.



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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:52:23 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		I don't think our being into bdsm is what's causing the issue of romanticizing slavery- it's simply time and convenience.  We're very well swaddled in our ivory towers for the most part, and that's the real issue.

I can't tell you the number of women I've heard talk about how great it was "back then" when men were men and the women could stay home and take care of things.

Then you start talking about "back then" when women had no right to education, no right of refusal against rape or abuse from anyone, no money, who had to go to work when all the "men" went to war, disease, lack of hot water, and the fact that only really a very FEW percentage of a population has EVER had the convenience of "staying home" and that they would very much more likely be starving or constantly working and not really be able to type online all day with nice whimsical jokes like they do now...and they get less enthused.

Not that I think we need to make people get diptheria and scrounge for meal worms in a river to understand the historical perspective and reality of the past- but it does seem appealing when people start spouting off about "the good ole days"

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/6/2007 10:01:09 PM   
nyrisa


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Status: offline 		I have often felt uncomfortable with the subject of woman's "rightful" place as subject to man, and when I hear so many women stating that they can only find true happiness when they hand over all decisions and power to a man. Then the plight of women in male dominated societies, such as the Middle East, left me wondering what these women, who had no choices and have no recourse, would tell us about this lifestyle "for real".

I am not a fem supremacist by any means, just someone who has raised two daughters and has tried to instill in them the pride and assertiveness to define themselves and seek whatever place makes them happiest and whole.

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/6/2007 10:41:22 PM   
truesub4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyrisa

I have often felt uncomfortable with the subject of woman's "rightful" place as subject to man, and when I hear so many women stating that they can only find true happiness when they hand over all decisions and power to a man. Then the plight of women in male dominated societies, such as the Middle East, left me wondering what these women, who had no choices and have no recourse, would tell us about this lifestyle "for real".

I am not a fem supremacist by any means, just someone who has raised two daughters and has tried to instill in them the pride and assertiveness to define themselves and seek whatever place makes them happiest and whole.


Being a sub myself... I still find my happiness is being me. Not what someone else thinks I should be. I tried that ....it didn't work for me then...and won't now either.

I've raised my girls to be happy.. strong.. self dependent. Never allow any man or woman walk on them.  (Yes one is bi)...Be no ones punching bag. 

I just hope what ever path they choose to take in their lives..... they're safe....happy... and themselves. 

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/6/2007 10:47:52 PM   
crouchingtigress


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Status: offline 		we who? bdsmers? my experiance with bdsmers is theat the only thing they have in common is bdsm.

i can only speak for myself, i do not romantise slavery, in that i dont paint a picture of it as blissful and serene, i dont exagerate it in my mind as a better or higher place.

how ever i do think that many concepts as they are applied in what bdsmers call slavery are very sweet, loving and hot.



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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/6/2007 10:49:45 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

we who? bdsmers?


Yes, with particular focus on the CM crowd.

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 12:08:09 AM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		We romanticize slavery, and animals can vote.  Only, more specifically, human animals can vote, and there's even restrictions then.  Likewise, only consensual slavery is romanticized here, and there's even restrictions then.

The slavery in the American past isn't consensual; it's simply not what we romanticize.

Edit:  Typo's.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 10/7/2007 12:14:49 AM >

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 12:48:46 AM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Friends ---

A few years ago, I was looking at a book on the Civil War. There was a photo of a slave collar and shackles, and I felt a brief surge of excitement. Then cold reality sank in: This was not BDSM gear I was seeing. These were artifacts of misery, tools of an institution that oppressed millions.


You're able to separate the horrific racist based slavery from modern BDSM and I think that's a good thing. Today's BDSM is about empowerment and growth, not oppression and there is a chasm so large which separate the two that they're not even on the same plain of existance.

quote:

That scene came to mind today as I followed the Gorean thread about nonconsensual slavery. Thirty-six precent of poll respondents said that they believed in nonconsensual slavery. That stunned me. It's possible, I realize, they had in mind some Gorean vision rather than real-life slavery as it's been practiced on Earth. But still.


But still what?? I'd love for you to finish the thought. The slavery which existed in the US 200+ years ago is not what today's BDSM is about. If the term 'slave' bothers you, don't use it but keep in mind slave is not the only term from that time frame. Property, chattel, beasts, animals and others were also used. Do those terms disturb you as well or is it just the word 'slave'? As far as the tools of the trade,  keep in mind, too, that it wasn't just collars and shackles which were used .. it was whips, floggers, hell, even sledge hammers to break ankles so people couldn't run. Trains were used to transport the Jewish, homosexuals and others to death camps. Does that mean you should never ride a train again? Or is it because we've taken some of the tools which were used to commit atrocities and have turned them into instruments of pleasure? We have done similar with the tools used by the Inquisition. We have taken tools and because of our motivational differences, we allow them to empower us rather than overpower us. 200+ years ago, a collar meant the loss of one's freedom. Today, for some of us, it's the collar which symbolizes our freedom... our freedom to be ourselves and revel in it.
quote:

All this has left me wondering if we're at risk of romanticizing slavery. Do our easy use of the word slave, our iconization of slave collars, and our interest (from whatever angle) in dominance and submission blind us to the true horrors of slavery?


I can only answer for myself and the answer is absolutely not.

quote:

Are we forgetting that consensual slavery is the exception rather than the rule?


That would have been true 200 years ago. Today I think it's rather the opposite. We can only be responsible for ourselves. We are not responsible for the sins of our fathers.

quote:

Does anyone else feel discomfort at sharing language and symbols with one of the great evils of human history?


Language is fluid and evolves and I think it would be a mistake to overlook the motivation for it's use.

quote:

I'm sure this has been pondered and discussed before, but I couldn't find a thread that raised quite these questions. So I'm interested to hear what folks think.

Thanks,

DC


I don't recall, in my time here, a similar thread with these points being brought out into the open. I think it's a good topic and one worthy of discussion.

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 10/7/2007 1:14:35 AM >

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 1:00:09 AM   
DMFParadox


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Status: offline 		It's said that monarchy is the best form of government, until the good king/queen dies.  Then it becomes the worst.

Real life frequently runs into the paradox of limitations.  If you hand over all of your power to someone else in exchange for safety and comfort, then you still need at least one power--the power to leave.  Old-fashioned slavery didn't make that trade, though; instead, they took personal power and authority, forcing labor under deadly conditions, while giving very little back.

Roman slavery was different... to a large degree.  Some Roman slaves had more power than Senators.  Most did not.  But then, Roman society as a whole was based on a patronage system; and no one, citizen or otherwise, was completely free... even in the limited sense of freedom that we use in modern day.. until there was such a thing as a Roman Emporer.  (*he* was free).  Almost everyone in Roman society, from plebes to Consuls, was beholden to someone else.  Slaves were simply a variation on that theme; "slaves" were simply conquered outsiders that didn't have official status as clients to patrons, because they couldn't be trusted to uphold their end of the bargain.  Slavery was a compromise that allowed foreigners to exist and have a status, jobs, and prestige within a very, very complicated social system.  It got out of hand quite a few times, but ultimately, that's why the practice endured and had much less stigmata for Romans.

So to consider Roman slaves equivalent to plantation-working 1800's slaves, is like comparing apples to rotten apples. 



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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 1:07:14 AM   
LivingInSin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyrisa

I have often felt uncomfortable with the subject of woman's "rightful" place as subject to man, and when I hear so many women stating that they can only find true happiness when they hand over all decisions and power to a man. Then the plight of women in male dominated societies, such as the Middle East, left me wondering what these women, who had no choices and have no recourse, would tell us about this lifestyle "for real".

I am not a fem supremacist by any means, just someone who has raised two daughters and has tried to instill in them the pride and assertiveness to define themselves and seek whatever place makes them happiest and whole.


I understand your stance on this. I, too have a little girl that I'm trying to raise the best I can. I'm not a feminist in the least. However, I think womens rights have been taken to extremes. When I told a lady last week that I don't work so that I can care for my children, she asked me what type of message I was sending to my daughter?

Well first off I didn't smack her. That showed my daughter tolerance of ignorane. :) I didn't tell her that though.

I am not a supporter of womens rights. I destest the fact that women are now feeling "forced" to work outside the home due to femi-nazis.My daughter told her dad, when he asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up, that she wants to be a mommy and wife. He freaked. So now I'm trying to help her understand that she does not have to give up her dream to climb the corporate ladder.

The saying of "the grass is always greener on the other side" kind of applies here. I know what its like to have the freedom that American women have. To me there are more rules and restricitions that are applied to us than women who are in the middle east, obviously in different ways.

The OP suggested that the laws of slavery could be modified for modern times. That would be wonderful. You cannot kill your slave, endanger them in anyway, you must care for their needs. Folks, NEEDS not wants.
That would free the folks that would like to encourage womens rights thier time to continue doing so; while those, such as myself, could be a slave and not feel pressured against for my choice to do so.

This is a great topic. I love it.

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 1:33:47 AM   
came4U


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Status: offline 		the term SLAVE: Very FEW women have the ultimate experience of being a true slave.  It is, I am pretty sure, a real and dangerous event. Yet, mostly the ones who claim to be qualified as the ultimate slave material would be the first to complain if kidnapped by a stranger to be used and abused (even if he is good-looking).  I dislike the mis-use of the terminology of 'slave' in this concept. So, you ARE a slave but to someone you 'chose' ? ohh I get it now.  NOT. So what you are saying is that you would ONLY be a slave to someone you trusted? If it really came down to it...and some nutbar took you from a convenience store...you would file a lawsuit if the cops didn't help you soon enough? What if you had no rights, no passport? No job.  Even as a temporary slave, between men ..ya gotta eat. If you are smart enought to be reading this on a computer...you are not a slave.  A slave wouldn't be near a computer exept to dust it like it were an old betamax player because obviously your Master doesn't get out much either. How dare we toss the word 'slave' around like it is a good thing. It is not lighthearted word to be used as play. Get a grip.  Slaves aren't online 5-7 hrs/day.  Do something productive. A true slave would use a computer to do her/his Master's work..not as an outlet for your self-esteem. A slaves only self-worth is what she is told to have-to be given or taken at any time. NOT 'brb honey, I am finishing this email'.

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 2:05:00 AM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline 		Yes, I think we in the lifestyle do romanticize slavery, for right or wrong.  But I think it comes down to the matter of intent and choice.   Slavers didn't intend for the slave to be aroused by being put into collar, cuffs, shackles and irons.  18th century floggings were not intended to be arousing.  Schoolmasters used the cane on recalcitrant students.  Crops were for horses only.  200 hundred year old prisons used cages, chains, iron maidens and the rack.  Paddles, birch switches, belts were used for punishment spankings or beatings.  And none of it was intended to be arousing or erotic or stimulatiing or pleasurable.  We've taken the "old ways" and turned them around, by choice, and used these implements and weapons as erotic tools.  Let's face it, bdsm is at its basest level about sexual gratification.  And we've chosen to romanticize the baser levels of humanity, ie, sadism, masochism, abuse, brutality, domination, subjugation, slavery...and intend these acts to arouse and satisfy.  Therein lies the difference.

In my opinion only.

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 3:06:49 AM   
RainierBeach


Posts: 3
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Status: offline 		It seems to me the term Indentured Servent apllies to the BDSM world far better than Slave.
Ofcourse we romanticize slavery, humans romanticize most evils at some point, Nazis, gangsters, Vlad Tepish :), rape, murder of passion, serial killers, etc..

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 5:59:29 AM   
Petronius


Posts: 289
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Status: offline 		Roman slavery was absolutely horrendous. It was, I believe, far worse an institution than existed in the U.S. south.

Slavery there wasn't limited to the close connection between slaves and masters in the urban Roman household. We'd hardly judge slavery in this country simply by the relationship between mistress and "nanny" on the plantation or between the master and his "fancy girl." Most Roman slaves were treated as cattle, working in the fields or mines all day, and being chained at night.

Part of the reason was supply and demand. Within a relatively short time after independence, it became illegal to import slaves into the U.S. This decreased supply, increased demand, increased price, and thereby made it more expensive to mistreat the slaves. Roman slavery was based on conquest and capture. Caesar reported capturing 53,000 slaves from one single French town. More supply meant lower prices which in turn meant that each slave became less valuable. I think that the closet modern example to the reality of Roman slavery were the Nazi death camps where people were not murdered in gas chambers but worked to death in factories.

Do we romanticize this? Of course, as works like "The Story of O" and various forms of Gor-play indicate.

We also eroticize it. For us things like collars, physical punishment, public display, and forms of bondage are sexually exciting.

But then, so what? Given our sense of consent and play, at some level what we romanticize and eroticize isn't real slavery but our romantic and erotic illusions of real slavery.

Given consent between adults, so what? The map is not the territory; the fantasy is not the reality. And we see the humor behind "I was never into violence, not even as a child. When the other kids played 'cowboys and indians' I was always the Chinese railroad worker."

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 6:27:49 AM   
thetammyjo


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Status: offline 		Do we as a kink community romanticize slavery?

YES!

Claims that institutional or historical slavery is "ok" or "not as bad as we think" often comes, I strongly believe, from a deep misunderstanding of how those systems worked in the past or even today. I'm not just talking about how slaves were treated but also about how we have difficulty understanding what was required in those societies to maintain those systems and how it impacted the owning and even non-owning free class of people.

I can say that personally and also as a historian I have no interest in non-consensual slavery being legalized again not because of how slaves are treated but because of how the rest of society must function in order to maintain it. Can it be a hot fantasy? Sure, but I don't allow my fantasies to override my own moral and ethical codes. Heck even in my fiction, often set in non-consensual worlds, the main characters learn to connect on a deeper and more personal level simply because I find the mutual fear and distrust required to maintain such unequal systems to be distasteful to me.

Institutional and illegal slavery still exists today in some parts of the world. In fact, I'd say that a non-slave owning society is rare in human history.

Does that make it natural or right or good or acceptable? No, but it may explain a bit why we can romanticize about it because it seems to have been so wide spread and most people know something about slavery at some point in time.

Perhaps we romanticize to off set any discomfort we feel about our collective past or our current desires. As a species we seem to go to great lengths to explain our actions and ideas away or to justify them.

However I also believe that there is nothing wrong with taking ideas from others and from the past and using them to make a dynamic that works for everyone. So romanticizing and borrowing is great for your fun today, just don't confuse that with history or reality or try to force your ideas onto others who can't consent in my strong opinion.

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 6:45:58 AM   
Cyntilating


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   You wrote:
 {separate the horrific racist based slavery from modern BDSM and I think that's a good thing. Today's BDSM is about empowerment and growth, not oppression and there is a chasm so large which separate the two that they're not even on the same plain of existance.}
{taken tools and because of our motivational differences, we allow them to empower us rather than overpower us. 200+ years ago, a collar meant the loss of one's freedom. Today, for some of us, it's the collar which symbolizes our freedom... our freedom to be ourselves and revel in it. }

Yes! so well said : )
empowerment and growth..vs oppression.
freedom to be...through our bondage and implements, mental as well as physical ones.
empower rather than overpower.

I am one of those people who will walk away from a slave vs sub conversation, so that I can refrain from shouting " slavery doesn't truly exist, you ALWAYS and now have the ability and choice to walk away. "

Having said that, and before everyone gets the flame-throwers out, I also DO understand that there are many people who's relationship contains slave-like boundaries and protocol (apologies if that is not the proper term).  They feel enslaved.  I want to respect that and do respect that each of our relationships hold their own meanings, depths and inticracies.  I struggle with my feelings about slavery with no choice comments made by some AND also not wanting to disrespect or negate their passionate feelings toward what they experience and how their relationship works for them.
And so, I try not get involved in those debates.

Bita, you have said what my brain couldn't quite formulate into a clear conclusion.  Thanks!  BDSM Slavery now, is not the slavery of then. 



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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 7:10:30 AM   
MsBearlee


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I am answering this question based only on the line in the topic; not having read any of the replies.
 
I would say we do not romanticizing ‘slavery’; I would say we are romanticizing the whole idea of ‘giving ourselves to another’…completely, from the heart, and without reservation.
 
B

Edited to add:

Leave it to Celeste to put things into perspective!     Yes, the titles we put on things rarely describe or fit perfectly.  Words are words…perhaps that is why some choose Dominant and submissive over Master and slave.  We gots lotsa words; pick the ones that fit your purpose the best.
 
I would also like to applaud LivingInSin for her strong minded concern to living her life as she sees fit, and for raising her daughter to be strong enough to make the decisions she feels best for her life!  Good job!!!  Now, there’s a good mama!
 
Beverly


< Message edited by MsBearlee -- 10/7/2007 7:27:50 AM >

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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 7:19:31 AM   
Cyntilating


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlebitxxx

.  And we've chosen to romanticize the baser levels of humanity, ie, sadism, masochism, abuse, brutality, domination, subjugation, slavery...and intend these acts to arouse and satisfy.  Therein lies the difference.
~~~~~
For me, the word "chosen" is at the core of the difference. Choice.
  I don't know if I romanticize bdsm, maybe I do, I do know I agree with your comment about it's intention, in part, to arouse and satisfy.

Choice...

..I was watching the movie "Black Book" last evening.  A movie about the darkest days of WW II  and the jewish fugitives attempting to escape occupied Holland.

There was a scene toward the end of the movie that showed women ( who had been aiding the Nazi movement ie. secretaries and spies ) being lined up, publicly humiliated and beaten, stripped and their hair being cut to the roots as the parade of  Canadian and Russian occupiers drove and walked by.

   I was in no way aroused by this scene..in fact, was in tears as I watched it.

yet,
  I visited a site recently that Merc n Beth provided with pixs ( and descriptions) of the FolsomFair they attended.......pix of scenes of people in bondage, beaten, humilated...etc..

  THAT  i was aroused by...

my mind and arousal mechanizm wasn't romantacizing either.  One felt very wrong and one felt very right.

those are just my thoughts.


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RE: Do we romanticize slavery? - 10/7/2007 8:01:28 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
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From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Conversations like this are always so hard to comment on because of the firm beliefs so many hold themselves to.

I think the purpose of BDSM is to practice Bondage Discipline & Sadomasochism behind it and in a place we create ourselves there is a D/s M/s mentality in which one stops performing an activity and starts creating an Intament interaction between people.

My slave is also my wife and I think we romanticize both institutions because Marriage is no longer a union before God it is a Legal Institution in which you combine back accounts and credit scores as far as what Marriage means in the end look at the divorce rate since we made it so anyone could do it without requesting permission from the clergy!

Marriage like slavery is what you make of it. If you want it to be happy and sweet and pretty and kind with ducks and bunnies and flowers and marshmellows then Happy doing business with ya. If you want to make it this Nasty Ugly Horrifying thing that it used to be, Happy hunting and please practice catch and release.

YES we romanticize slavery and Nonconsentual is always a BAD way of putting it because it is really Consentual-Nonconsentual Slavery because slavery is no longer Legal and thus the person is ALWAYS left with the choice to Obey or to Leave.

In Consentual-Nonconsent the person simply agrees not to have a say in what thier Master makes them do, but they CONSENTED to do that. In Consentual Nonconsent there is no negotiations and no limits and RARELY have I ever seen it work, I believe it is akin to the TAE (Total Authority Exchange) it works well on Paper but it is difficult to have it come to be in actual reality.

Not saying that those living 24/7 are not really doing it just that the TAE or Consentual Nonconsent are usually words that are used and rarely actually met.

Just my two cents in a sea of pocket change.

As Always

Steel

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Just Steel
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Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Cyntilating)
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