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A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:30:32 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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So I'm facing a bit of a curious spot, so charlotte and I thought we'd see what others had to say.

charlotte has a strong interest in the punishment aspect of D/s. Very distinct from painplay or masochism, she enjoys being owned by a man who will punish her harshly, severely. Yet she's also extremely pliant, obedient, and frankly I'm not a hard man to please. So a question presents itself; if a slave's purpose is to obey, and part of her motivation to obey is to be punished, yet she's a good slave, and rarely needs that punishment exercised, what's to be done?

Scene's aren't the answer here, I don't think. We do engage in pain play, but the psychological drive is very different there. I don't see there being anything about being a 'bad' slave for wanting to be punished. Nothing suggests that her desire comes from a bad mental or emotional place; it's just a fundamental part of her personality.

I could certainly establish a greater degree of rules and structure, but I don't wish to stretch the warm, loving relationship we've established in the process. I don't do the cold, distant thing well, and frankly I would imagine it to demand more of my time and energy than it should require on any level other than the occasional.

So.. any thoughts? Anyone experience this sort of thing?

Thanks,

Stephan

p.s. A couple comments from charlotte as she read this;

"I like to be punished, but I don't want to be disobedient. It's not a desire to be bratty."

< Message edited by Stephann -- 10/15/2007 9:35:41 PM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

Post #: 1

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:33:12 PM

kitttty

Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
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Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 2

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:39:16 PM

octavia

Posts: 377
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline

Stephan,
I can relate to your Charolette!
I think punishment and disipline are the area's that I find myself craving as well..
Personally, for me a lot of it boils down to attention, ( I think?) and security. I want to know that the man I am trusting is strong enouph, and smart enouph to handle me. Discipline feels comforting in those ways. It ensures that I can't pull the wool over his eyes, and it says to me that he cares enouph to pay attention.

I will be paying close attention to this thread for sure!
oct

(in reply to kitttty)

Post #: 3

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:45:02 PM

trappedinamuseum

Posts: 5066
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.

I can't say I know much, or well anything about being punished, but I don't think being set up for failure in order to be punished is necessarily healthy for someone's psyche. Just my thought though.

_____________________________

"You're gonna catch a cold, from the ice inside you soul.
Don't come back for me.
Don't come back at all" - Jar of Hearts

(in reply to kitttty)

Post #: 4

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:46:30 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Although you say that "scenes" are not the answer, I am not sure how else to approach this particular need.
Therefore I would suggest that you create a scene that charlotte doesn't know you are creating. On occasion you might punish her for some minor infraction that really makes no big difference to you, but she will actually then feel that she is being punished, however that might occur. If not the cold and distant thing (which I do quite well, when I am upset! *Smile*) the perhaps pain play that is being offered up as punishment as opposed to pain play that is being offered up as an understood scene. Aftercare is most likely necessary and if you feel it appropriate you could explain to her what you actually did for her. You are then satisfied since you were in the mood for a pain play scene and she might be more satisfied since it was sprung on her as a surprise and in the guise of punishment. In future situations, as long as she doesn't know when it is coming, then it might work out well, yet she still will have the deeper understanding that this is not a serious "displeasure" on your end. Not really so different form the kidnapping scene or the interrogation scene. It can be realistric enough to cause the thrill of the fright, yet at a deeper level the submissive still knows s/he is basically safe.
No, I have not experienced this particular situation so I am flying by the seat of My pants here.
And perhaps someone else has a better idea.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 10/15/2007 9:49:08 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 5

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:51:45 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

~FR~

I'm in the exact same mental place as Charlotte with regard to punishment. I don't ever want to do something which earns it, but when I do, I have the desire for it. There's a couple of reasons for that, as least as far as I'm concerned. Being punished means that I've acknowledged the error and Himself has the opportunity to correct the behavior which lead to the error. Once my punishment is over, my mind reads that as "I've been forgiven for my error," and I'm able to move on and not punish myself for screwing up. Himself did not put additional structures in place thereby giving me more opportunities to screw up. We simply work within his set parameters and I behave appropriately. Most of the errors I've made have been because I was thoughtless somehow and his punish of those behaviors has always fit the infraction I've committed. I never have to dwell on something once the punishment has been handed down and that leaves me to dwell on the good stuff.. like serving him the way I'm supposed to serve him rather than keep the focus on my own screw up.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to trappedinamuseum)

Post #: 6

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:53:59 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: trappedinamuseum

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.

I can't say I know much, or well anything about being punished, but I don't think being set up for failure in order to be punished is necessarily healthy for someone's psyche. Just my thought though.

I was thinking along the same lines, thanks A.

DustyGold,

Actually, I've done this; but as I (obviously failed miserably in) explaining, that I can and have certainly raised the bar very very high temporarily, and punish her for small infractions; but this really does require an enormous amount of time and attention; a twenty minute meal becoming a three hour punishment ordeal. Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation.

Truth be told, I don't think there's any one good answer to the situation, but I do appreciate all of the input so far. She's hardly miserable in her collar, it's just a quirk of hers that we're both having a little trouble seeing a more effective solution to.

Regards,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to trappedinamuseum)

Post #: 7

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:55:33 PM

Ryeguy91

Posts: 28
Joined: 10/9/2007
From: Pittsburgh
Status: offline

quote:

Give her a task that is useful to her, yet extremely difficult and then punish her for being inevitably unable to comply. This is what mine does.

I'd disagree with setting her up for failure. That would seem to me to be counterintuitive and end up putting a strain on the trust and bond she has for you. Beyond that I'm not sure I understand your question. She desires punishment, yet she is well behaved? I've never had that problem myself, instead having a sub disobey with the intent of getting what she wanted: physical pain in form of punishment. Have you considered discipline as a reward? or a scheduled regimen?

< Message edited by Ryeguy91 -- 10/15/2007 9:58:20 PM >

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 8

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 9:58:02 PM

trappedinamuseum

Posts: 5066
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline

S-

Forgive my naivete,

Could you not just punish to punish? Because it pleases you to do so? Or, is that considered scening?

_____________________________

"You're gonna catch a cold, from the ice inside you soul.
Don't come back for me.
Don't come back at all" - Jar of Hearts

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 9

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:01:15 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

She desires punishment, yet she is well behaved?

I agree; I've never encountered this type of desire. I can rationally see where it's coming from (maybe on par with the concept of sticking pins in one's body, to relieve pain? LOL) More seriously, I am guessing that she has a powerful drive to be made to fear and respect the person she serves (she nods as she reads me writing this between my hands) and that fear and respect encourage her to obey (as does her desire to please me, from a more emotional level.) Yet without feeling the growl and bite from disobedience, she's left to wonder if there really are any teeth to those rules and expectations (more nodding.) And, because she does love and care for me, emotionally, she's even further driven to obey - thus leaving her incapable of willingly disobeying me to a degree where she'd be punished for a transgression.

I can't imagine how this could be confusing to anyone. (and yes, we're both laughing.)

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 10/15/2007 10:07:27 PM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Ryeguy91)

Post #: 10

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:09:15 PM

Tigrita

Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline

Oh come on now, she's such a sassy little cunt that she might change her mind about punishment if you started giving her sass back to her with the back of your hand! Though I'm sure no one on these boards would believe it with all her sweet little posts and that innocent little flower girl avatar.

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to trappedinamuseum)

Post #: 11

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:10:06 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation.

Deal with it! Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you? Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem. Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while. When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her. Seems to work fine for me.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 12

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:10:07 PM

chellekitty

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Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

i've seen the "set up to fail" relationship dynamic work...but not when it was a need for punishment...it was a senario for play....

so i guess my question is....and maybe you have answered it, and i just didn't see it...why does she feel the need to be punished? why can't this dynamic just be natural and ok? or if she has the need to feel physically dominated...can't that come without the psychological torture of "i have failed"?...going to stop here so as not to project any further....but yes....why does she feel the need to be punished?

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 13

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:15:08 PM

Ryeguy91

Posts: 28
Joined: 10/9/2007
From: Pittsburgh
Status: offline

Hehe. Let’s set different definitions here so there’s no confusion. "Punishment" "Discipline" and "Scene"

I have always put prearranged, more elaborate (including more than just beyond corporal action) activities into the "scene" category, while "punishment" was given for disobedience, or failure, willful or not. I never enjoyed punishing a slave because I see their failure as my own, being an extension of myself. Punishment could include anything from physical pain, to timeout, to reduced/removed privileges. "Discipline" on the other hand, I consider to be more of a 'pre-emptive' punishment. Letting her know, on a semi- regular basis that "This is what I am capable of. This is what happens when you disobey etc" But done as encouragement to NOT disobey. Perhaps you could take time now and again to prove the “dog’s not all bark” Plus without the disobedience/failure aspect, you both can have a lot more fun without the mind games that will undermine your relationship. She gets what she wants, and shown in a tangible way why she respects and obeys you and your command, and you get peace of mind knowing you're not messing with her head and the joy of indulging yourself, without the disappointment that disobedience would bring.

< Message edited by Ryeguy91 -- 10/15/2007 10:23:43 PM >

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 14

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:15:18 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation.

Deal with it! Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you? Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem. Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while. When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her. Seems to work fine for me.

Oh, it works great! The trouble is she keeps crawling back for more. I don't want to feel I need to spend six hours a night just for her to get her kicks It's not just that she wants punishment; it's almost as if she needs it a LOT more than any other submissive or slave I've dealt with.

Thanks for the thoughts though.

Tigrita,

I'll let her know they're special delivery from you

chelle,

I've asked, and she doesn't seem to know. Hence the confusion for us all.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 15

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:18:50 PM

BossyShoeBitch

Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

Essentially, it becomes a contrived situation; with the same shortcomings as a scene, in that it is an artificial situation.

Deal with it! Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you? Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem. Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while. When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her. Seems to work fine for me.

It certainly does!

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 16

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:21:04 PM

Daddysjezzy

Posts: 54
Joined: 7/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Deal with it! Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you? Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem. Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while. When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her. Seems to work fine for me.

I agree with this, I dont think the fantasy is earning punishment, I think the fantasy is receiving punishment. So you punish her for something really silly although you have to play the role of deeply disappointed Dom who thinks she needs severe discipline. If you seem to take it seriously she can immerse herself totally in the fantasy and her needs will be met. You both enjoy the experience and everyone is happy.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 17

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:38:03 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

And that's what I get for sharing a computer...

- S

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Daddysjezzy)

Post #: 18

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:39:11 PM

charlotte12

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
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Well i finally got my turn at the computer so i'll attempt to explain a little. I really don't want to dissapoint my Master (actually i hate dissapointing just about anyone i care about in my life.) So i get these urges to be bratty or disobey in order to be punished but would be horribly upset with myself if i actually did something that upset him. I understand where chellekitty is coming from with her question about why i want to be punished but honestly i just don't know the answer. I do know that ever since i was very little i loved to imagine being punished and would go back and re-read the sections in books where someone was punished. It's not about the pain, i enjoy being spanked but its' a different kind of feeling. It's about the headspace it puts me in. I want to feel taken down a notch or two (or three .) I enjoy feeling helpless and i get all wet and tingly when i'm threatened with something i do not enjoy (such as being made to taste soap for saying something i wasn't supposed to.) So it's not the activities that i crave, i can certainly get my share of pain play by asking nicely. I don't know if this craving for being put in my place comes from a negative place or not but it turns me on like almost nothing else and just seemed like a fun fantasy when i was younger so i don't remember it coming from negative feelings about myself. Believe me i have enough issues with guilt to recognize when that's the emotion driving it lol.

I think perhaps the more experience i gain in these areas the clearer i will become. I sometimes have a habit of trying to figure things out before i try them. Yeah...silly me...

Thank you all for your input. I have tried to write a post about this for quite a while but am always intimidated by the massive amounts of posts on punishment that always leave me feeling frustrated and like i'm not a good slave for craving it.

charlotte

_____________________________

Stephan's slaveling

"I'm not superior, I'm just more important." Master (Stephann)

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 19

RE: A Punishment Paradox - 10/15/2007 10:41:10 PM

charlotte12

Posts: 471
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysjezzy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Deal with it! Would you prefer that she WAS disobedient or that she failed you? Careful what you wish for...

She wants to be punished, you want to take care of her, where is the problem. Tell her she is a bad girl for oh I don't know, breathing or cumming or taking too long to blink or something and throw her over your knee and spank the living hell out of her and make her sit in the corner for a while. When the puddle on the floor gets deep enough, order her to bed and ravish her. Seems to work fine for me.

I agree with this, I dont think the fantasy is earning punishment, I think the fantasy is receiving punishment. So you punish her for something really silly although you have to play the role of deeply disappointed Dom who thinks she needs severe discipline. If you seem to take it seriously she can immerse herself totally in the fantasy and her needs will be met. You both enjoy the experience and everyone is happy.

See, this is why I don't think it works; because the desire stems from a desire of a 'real' punishment. A fantasy punishment is abit on par with mud pies in this case.

Stephan

_____________________________

Stephan's slaveling

"I'm not superior, I'm just more important." Master (Stephann)

"When you are your freest self, who are you?" Jack Rinella

(in reply to Daddysjezzy)

Post #: 20

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