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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:13:59 PM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...so i take it you sympathise with those people around the world who have been messed with by US citizens? Nicaraguans who had their ports illegally mined for instance....or the few thousand innocent Iraqi citizens who had the crap bombed out of them during shock and awe. i take it you accept that they have a perfect right to consider all Americans as imperialist bastards who think military might gives them the right to do anything to protect and extend their corporate and ideological interests?
Or is it only right for US citizens to hold and act on such views?

The mining of Nicaragua's ports...you mean we were giving logistic support to our "artificial forces"?
As to Commander Carrion's (Sounds like some B-movie villain) assertion that without America's support and direction, the contras would disband, disorganize, and lose military capacity"...Well, right now in Iraq, we're fighting either our own "contras", or people trained by them, and I take it that these contras haven't "lost military capacity" yet? Maybe we trained them too well!
This "Shock&Awe" strategy doesn't seem to have worked...From the newspaper, this particular application of Shock&Awe would be to use heavy artillery to miss--on purpose! Also according to the newspaper, American troops didn't launch a Hellfire missile from a drone that watched several Al Queida bigwigs attending a funeral of one of their own. A perfect opportunity to take out some terrorist leaders with minimal or no collateral damage--and they didn't take it? So, from what I've seen, the NEW definition of Shock&Awe is a beautiful display of force that misses or holds back on purpose...I would think by now, we're well past the "warning shots" phase, right?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wikipedia
The principal author of Shock and Awe: Achieving Rapid Dominance, Harlan Ullman was one of the most vocal critics of the shock and awe campaign. Ullman stated, "The current campaign does not appear to correspond to what we envisioned." In addition, "the bombing that lit up the Baghdad night skies the next day, and in the following days, did not match the force, scope and scale of the broad-based shock-and-awe plan, Ullman and U.S. officials say." In a question directed to Ullman, asking if it is "too late for shock and awe now?" Ullman responded "We have not seen it; it is not coming."
Ullman noted that plan called for "an attack into the center of Baghdad, taking it over, followed by successive takeovers expanding from the center of the city." Also the "bombing campaign did not immediately go after Iraqi military forces in the field, particularly the Republican Guard divisions and political levers of power, such as the Baath Party headquarters." Instead Ullman, states that the "shock and awe" implementation was more of a siege.
Apparently, the "Bush administration throttle[d] back on the Iraqi bombing" and the original plan was scrubbed days before its implementation as "political concerns over civilian casualties factored into the decision."

You mean America is throttling back because we're afraid of killing enemies and/or collaborators?

In previous conflicts, ALLEGEDLY, friendly forces would move civilians to temporary camps, the ones that stayed behind were enemies. This deprived them of civilians they could hide behind, and is called "draining the swamp", part of COIN (COunterINsurgency) strategy. I cannot say for sure if this is what happened or not: I wasn't there. However, it DOES seem a more efficient strategy than "patrols" in among a population where the enemy try to hide among or behind civilians and/or civilian structures, and where the civilians--assuming they're not terrorists themselves--won't give us any information about the terrorists, pointing to a sort of Stockholm Syndrome among the civilians? (The latter is based on friends who have been "rotated" back to America, physically intact, but showing signs of stress more from frustrations at the "rules" laid upon them than by, say, going into an enemy country with the knowledge that anyone/everyone they met could be an enemy, and could steal their uniforms to get closer for a better ambush?)

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:24:16 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Well, I don't know if this makes sense to you, but one's past dealings with any group, ethnic or gender, colors one's future dealings with that group.


...so i take it you sympathise with those people around the world who have been messed with by US citizens? Nicaraguans who had their ports illegally mined for instance....or the few thousand innocent Iraqi citizens who had the crap bombed out of them during shock and awe. i take it you accept that they have a perfect right to consider all Americans as imperialist bastards who think military might gives them the right to do anything to protect and extend their corporate and ideological interests?
Or is it only right for US citizens to hold and act on such views?


Phil, thanks for making my argument for an Isolationist policy in the U.S. govt.
As for "La Raza" why don't they take that shit to Russia or Brazil?
Fifty years ago if they tried that shit in this country they'd have been arrested and deported.

What's that term they use for trying to overthrow a government?
"Sedition." Isn't that still a Federal Felony?

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 10/18/2007 2:29:57 PM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:25:51 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		...to help you in your review of American history.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

...and to quote from that article....
"The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America[1] was a case heard in 1986 by the International Court of Justice that found that the United States had violated international law by supporting Contra guerrillas in their insurgency against the Nicaraguan government and by mining Nicaragua's harbors. The Court ruled in Nicaragua's favor, but the United States refused to abide by the Court's decision, on the basis that the court erred in finding that it had jurisdiction to hear the case,[2] The court stated that the United States had been involved in the "unlawful use of force".["

.....you'll note that the US's only defence was that it didn't think that International Law as embodied by the International Court of Justice didn't apply to it. Now as the clearly law abiding US citizen that you are, i'm sure you'll join me in condemning the US governments flagrantly ilegal action against another sovereign country.
While you rail against illegals breaking the law in your own country don't you think that it would be deeply hypocritical of you to ignore the same sort of abuse perpetrated by your fellow countrymen in other countrys?

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:29:17 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Popeye......if i thought that isolationism in the US wouldn't just be economic then i'd wholeheartedly support it. Sadly, i feel that US history teaches us that without an external enemy to interfere with, sorry fight with, then American society will fall back into itself...with potentially disasterous consequences for US citizens.


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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:31:33 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Popeye......if i thought that isolationism in the US wouldn't just be economic then i'd wholeheartedly support it. Sadly, i feel that US history teaches us that without an external enemy to interfere with, sorry fight with, then American society will fall back into itself...with potentially disasterous consequences for US citizens.




Phil, I'll gladly take my chances over what is going on now!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:32:33 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		America was supposedly acting in self-defense...of El Salvador? Our secondary source of illegals...This action made no sense whatsoever. But still, who or what gives the so-called World Court and/or World Trade Organization authority to curtail America, but NOT to curtail enemy/competitor countries? I think the other countries just like to humiliate America and/or see America humiliated...Prove me wrong!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:35:26 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

America was supposedly acting in self-defense...of El Salvador? Our secondary source of illegals...This action made no sense whatsoever. But still, who or what gives the so-called World Court and/or World Trade Organization authority to curtail America, but NOT to curtail enemy/competitor countries? I think the other countries just like to humiliate America and/or see America humiliated...Prove me wrong!


EPGAH, could it be that the "World Court" et al can't get anyone else to listen to them?

P.S. I met my Congressman Henry Brown at his office here in Myrtle Beach for an open house one time and he said to us that he doesn't make his decisions based on outside influences like the "U.N." or any other organisation like that.
Needless to say he'll get my vote again!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 10/18/2007 2:40:11 PM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:37:36 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

America was supposedly acting in self-defense...of El Salvador? Our secondary source of illegals...This action made no sense whatsoever. But still, who or what gives the so-called World Court and/or World Trade Organization authority to curtail America, but NOT to curtail enemy/competitor countries? I think the other countries just like to humiliate America and/or see America humiliated...Prove me wrong!


...so do you condemn the illegal American action in Nicaragua or not? Given how categorical you are about illegal immigration into the USA it isn't unreasonable to ask for a yes/no answer.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:40:25 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		If the US did go for complete isolation Phil, when the oil fields in Texas ran dry, then it's a highly likely that Alaska would be the first place they would then be looking at... although is alaska american or canadian?  Geography(like spelling) aint my strong point...
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/18/2007 2:51:19 PM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:41:17 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		You like us here in Blighty are as it would seem a magnet for immigrants, but thinking about it, if you were in their situation and there was a country with brighter prospects, would you not move or at least try to get to that country,like many an ancestor did? Here in Britain,we hear so much about crime rate increases,burden on the tax payer all that sort of stuff and people point fingers at the new comers, immigrants.

Fair enough, a civilised country helps those with nothing, and I mean nothing, so they will take their toll,but we so forget our finger pointing when one or more of those immigrants who may have been elitists in their own country prior to their difficulties within a short time becomes a contributor to society and go so far as to possibly become an employer of the finger pointers, it does happen, doctors, industrialists, scientists etc

Let us not forget,both Britain and the US are countries made up of IMMIGRANTS,look at your ancestry,were they not from another part of the world?Immigrants bring diversity and colour, I would sooner have immigration than put up our fences and be what we are, sooner or later we will war amongst ourselves, our own differences will become an issue to the more powerful group.

As to language, well,My own , the English language is made up of so many European languages, even regional dialects others from other parts of the country have difficulty with. My understanding with my scant historical knowledge here, the language of the original people,who may have come from somewhere else,displaced by the celtic language,from Gaul and other places, then germanic with the saxons and some of the norse onto Breton with William the b...conqueror, a bit of latin from the church lot and on.Now we have asian words in our language, new things we learn.All it does is create more tolerance and understanding by understanding the new comers.

I feel new comers contribute more than they take from a country, just my view.

oh yes, America,land of opportunity,The word' AMERICA' what does that mean?

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 10/18/2007 2:46:54 PM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:43:33 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

America was supposedly acting in self-defense...of El Salvador? Our secondary source of illegals...This action made no sense whatsoever. But still, who or what gives the so-called World Court and/or World Trade Organization authority to curtail America, but NOT to curtail enemy/competitor countries? I think the other countries just like to humiliate America and/or see America humiliated...Prove me wrong!


...so do you condemn the illegal American action in Nicaragua or not? Given how categorical you are about illegal immigration into the USA it isn't unreasonable to ask for a yes/no answer.


Phil, I do! And also Bosnia, Kosovo,Somalia, Iraq, and whichever other countries we have Troops in!
Also all this "humanitarian" crap as well.

_____________________________

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:49:42 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

America was supposedly acting in self-defense...of El Salvador? Our secondary source of illegals...This action made no sense whatsoever. But still, who or what gives the so-called World Court and/or World Trade Organization authority to curtail America, but NOT to curtail enemy/competitor countries? I think the other countries just like to humiliate America and/or see America humiliated...Prove me wrong!


...so do you condemn the illegal American action in Nicaragua or not? Given how categorical you are about illegal immigration into the USA it isn't unreasonable to ask for a yes/no answer.


Phil, I do! And also Bosnia, Kosovo,Somalia, Iraq, and whichever other countries we have Troops in!
Also all this "humanitarian" crap as well.


Popeye...you can always be relied upon to give a straight answer to a straight question......i may not like the answer but you're an honest debater.
Egpah, however, is being somewhat evasive.........

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:56:27 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Phil, yes, I condemn our actions in Nicaragua, especially to support El Salvador.
And yes, I condemn our actions in Bosnia/Kosovo/Somalia, especially in the parts where we were saving Moslems, who demonstrated a strange concept of "gratitude" on September 11.
And DEFINITELY end the "humanitarian" crap...otherwise, those countries we underwrite will have no reason to make social/political reforms.
Yes, there IS a fear that Communist China might help them, and drag them into a new USSR-like Collective. BUT that will drain China's economy, rather than ours, and as such, is a GOOD thing!

Aneirin, we have a system in place that takes in more LEGAL immigrants than any other FIVE nations combined. HOWEVER, we try to filter out the ones with known diseases and/or known criminal records (We have enough sick people, and we have enough criminals, thank you) Naturally, because of the deception that goes on by potential immigrants, there is a long time figuring out what's real, what's faked, so we've developed an enormous backlog.
Some immigrants--usually criminals or disease-carriers already--believe that they are special enough to bypass our queue and our system. If you try that in a popular nightclub, at a themepark, or even at SOME theaters, you'll be stopped by the bouncer (Sometimes forcibly, and those fights are fun to watch, and also make those who DO play by the rules feel vindicated, in a, "See? If I'd broken the rules, that could be ME down there, getting pounded by that giant!" kind of way)
If you try such a stunt in a store, it's called shoplifting, and you'll take a financial beating (a "fine", it's called)
Hell, I bet even your house has a door on it that you can lock to keep "blighters" out, right?
So why shouldn't our whole NATION determine whom we let in or not? And by that, I mean our nation, the Americans, should decide if someone comes in or not! NOT the country they invade from, and NOT the potential invader themselves!
Again, think of your own house: Should YOU decide who's allowed in, or should each person decide for themselves if they are allowed into your house or not?

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 10/18/2007 2:59:10 PM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:57:28 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Did you see the recent reports on migrants to the UK, A?  It is reported that they are harder working, work longer hours and earn more.  They are less likely to take sick leave and shorter maternity leave and are more reliable, boosting the economic output by 6 billion a year.
 
The negative being healthcare, with not enough GPs and surgeries already stretched, the waiting lists increase.  I don't see that as migrants to blame, but rather the government.  On the whole it is reported that migrants are vital to economic growth and the exchequer is a very happy bunny.
 
Peace
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 3:00:51 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Again, were these LEGAL "migrants" or illegal invaders? The difference is as large as that between a guest and a burglar, or even between sex and rape!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 3:02:53 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Again, think of your own house: Should YOU decide who's allowed in, or should each person decide for themselves if they are allowed into your house or not?


That's funny - I don;t think the Innu, Kaw, Navaho, Cayuga, Apache, or Ute tribes, to name a breathful - was given the 'choice' who entered THEIR house.
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 3:12:12 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I do not need to see reports,all I go on is those whom I have met, from being the only English employee in a company made entirely of Eiran Irish, different at first, what with the regional variations of our language and some goedelic celtic,but soon to become the best people I have ever known and worked with, a credit to the Irish.

Also Asians,I have them in my family and they work hard,harder than I can conceive, yes they have a point to prove maybe, that point being they have been given the chance to better themselves from their humble beginnings.Hey,one even was Engineer in charge of the construction of Canary wharf, that tall marble clad tower.

Then there are the Afro Carribean I once knew, they knew the meaning of life,they worked hard and they played hard, a perfect balance that sometimes seems to elude us.

There are others, but all it has served to teach me is we are no better than they, sometimes they are to be admired.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 3:30:39 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Again, were these LEGAL "migrants" or illegal invaders? The difference is as large as that between a guest and a burglar, or even between sex and rape!


Pardon?  Did you say something?
Don't bother speaking to me.  I make remarks.  I make my opinion known.  I will call you on your 'facts' and ridiculous statements.
But hold a conversation with or answer the questions of a racist?
...I have better things to do with my time.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 3:33:08 PM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Again: They sold their houses to us, not realizing that we actually MEANT ownership...Maybe they mistook our offers of gifts in exchange for lands as Ye Olde Merry Prank?
Then once the new owners of the property started shooting the tresspassers off their lawn, they didn't/couldn't understand...Wasn't it all an impish prank?
And if we were xenocidal, we didn't do a very good job...There's an Indian Reservation not too far from where I live, and THEY live tax-free in what is basically tract-housing, with electricity, air-conditioning, phone, Internet access...except for the unpavedd roads, it might have been American territory. Their spokesman said they wouldn't trade back now, even if they could: Prepackaged food, faster cooking-times, rainproof dwellings, instant communication and news...The spokesman turned the question around, and asked if I'd give all that up, and before I could answer, I was told I'd be an idiot if I would. How rude! Assuming I'd give up my technology!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 3:33:55 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Phil, thanks, I try.
You also have to realise that most American Citizens don't want to be doing things like Bosnia, Kosovo, Nicaragua, El Salvadore etc.
However we have an organisation in the govt. called the "State Dept" that it appears has been running it's own government "within" the U.S. government for a long time now.
They *do not* represent the American People.
I could never understand why Reagan tried to prevent Nicaragua from becomming communist.
Communists keep their people *in* their own countries!
I mean where was the "downside" for the U.S. on that?
I'd like to see Mexico, Haiti and a bunch of other countries go Communist!
We should be helping them go Communist not trying to stop them!
All this nonsense about Communism being "bad" for the U.S. is a bunch of crap leftover from the 1950's!
Sheesh!!!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 10/18/2007 3:48:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 120
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