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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 4:14:50 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Yes, I suppose I would be happier if I thought that invaders taking over part of my country (with or without the tacit consent of the Government), sucking our economy dry, closing down hospitals, trying to double the cost of education, committing LOTS more crime, and breeding uncontrollably--because it's part of their "culture"--



Ahhh.. so you are a citizen of Aztlan? I don't blame you for being upset about the invaders...

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 4:19:44 PM   
EPGAH


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I don't know how so many people get it backwards, but once again:
Mexicans are the invaders, America is the civilization...Hell, even Indians nowadays, for some reason, refuse to go back to their stereotypical "noble savage" ways...Maybe they're addicted to the Internet and ITunes?
America tamed a vast wilderness, and managed to set up a first-world civilization. We bought empty land, and made it into cities! Now the invaders believe these cities are a "gift" to them...
Sadly, gifts are often not respected...Look at what's happened to areas with heavy Mexican infestation?
Aztlan, if it ever existed, was a barbaric society that captured virgins from "lesser" tribes and sacrificed them to the Sun God in a particularly brutal way, they were in turn semi-tamed by Spanish people, who were only after gold.
Do you really want America invaded by a hybrid of pagan human-sacrificers and (literal!) gold-diggers?

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 4:27:50 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Do you really want America invaded by a hybrid of pagan human-sacrificers and (literal!) gold-diggers?



What do the Goreans have to do with it?


Oh, you meant those people from south of the border?

Some folks manage to make good points on boths sides of many issues without parroting agit-prop. 

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 4:56:09 PM   
Maya2001


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quote:

Perhaps because Canada was disputed territory between England and France, but BOTH languages are spoken in Canada. However, the French-speaking part has begun making noises about seceding from the primarily ENGLISH-speaking part.

LOL  this is nothing new and definitely not recent and has been ongoing as long as I can recall  and the numbers that want to seperate even in ther french speaking areas are the minority, The vast majority of the people thier  realize the cannot afford to seperate, heck most of the big business in  Montreal and Quebec are mostly owned by the US it would be suicide for them to seperate, as many of the corporation would pull out. 
quote:

but Canada objects to Americans coming LEGALLY into Canada and BUYING--not stealing--medicines!
  who owns the big damn drug companies here in Canada?????   they are branches of US companies so who do you think is really trying to put a stop to????? the same companies that are preventing US citizens from buying their dog medications in Australia at a reduced cost , so you need to start getting your facts straight

A guess what???? Canada also gets its share of illegal immigrants as well , we just don't go around blaming all our economic woes on them. Personally I would much rather see greater imigration here into Canada double or even tripled the current rate, we are in desperate need of skilled trades, doctors and more tax payers to support our tax infrastructure, we currently so not have enough younger people here to support the baby boomers that will be retiring , the doctor shortage here is so bad that some people are having to  wait 3 plus years just to get family doctor,  I am forced to wait 3 months for what is supposed to be emergency surgery, one thing I have admired about many of the immigrants that I see is their willingness to work together as a family unit , most are taking low paying jobs but sons, daughters, mother and father all tend to have jobs and all contribute to the household, once one is paid for they buy another, rarely are they going into huge debts or bankruptcy, they are taxpapers assets to the community often more so than many of the young Canadian who are too spoilt to work at lower paying job or rack up debts wanting every thing right away even though they cannot afford,  that they will never pay off.  , I lived amongst them as a struggling single mom, they were my neighbours, my child sitters , yes they got handouts to start off but they also become tax payers and put many of the lazy  welfare Canadian to shame but then those are the ones that complained the loudest but I sure did not see them going out in the middle of the night picking dew worms, or doing child care inorder to make themselves self sufficient or trying to ensure their kids got  college or university educations so as not to be a drain on the system, maybe my own fall into poverty  in my 20's was a good thing it opened my eyes and helped prevent me becoming a cynical bigot, even though I doubt I would have become  but it gave me first hand views to appreciate them, why do some change and become hostile and bitter ??? because  often daily  they  are  confronted by bigotry and it wears them down when it continues long enough


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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 6:58:43 PM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001
quote:

Perhaps because Canada was disputed territory between England and France, but BOTH languages are spoken in Canada. However, the French-speaking part has begun making noises about seceding from the primarily ENGLISH-speaking part.

Never said it was RECENT, just said they were making noises about it...
LOL  this is nothing new and definitely not recent and has been ongoing as long as I can recall  and the numbers that want to seperate even in ther french speaking areas are the minority, The vast majority of the people thier  realize the cannot afford to seperate, heck most of the big business in  Montreal and Quebec are mostly owned by the US it would be suicide for them to seperate, as many of the corporation would pull out. 
quote:

but Canada objects to Americans coming LEGALLY into Canada and BUYING--not stealing--medicines!
  who owns the big damn drug companies here in Canada?????   they are branches of US companies so who do you think is really trying to put a stop to????? the same companies that are preventing US citizens from buying their dog medications in Australia at a reduced cost , so you need to start getting your facts straight
No, I had already pegged it as puppetry by the American drug companies, especially once the rumors started flying that drugs from Canada were somehow less safe than the American versions. If they WERE, then Canadians would start dying left, right, and center, and their whole NATION would either stop buying from American drug-companies, or sue us...Come to think of it, probably BOTH!
A guess what???? Canada also gets its share of illegal immigrants as well , we just don't go around blaming all our economic woes on them. Personally I would much rather see greater imigration here into Canada double or even tripled the current rate, we are in desperate need of skilled trades, doctors and more tax payers to support our tax infrastructure, we currently so not have enough younger people here to support the baby boomers that will be retiring , the doctor shortage here is so bad that some people are having to  wait 3 plus years just to get family doctor,  I am forced to wait 3 months for what is supposed to be emergency surgery, one thing I have admired about many of the immigrants that I see is their willingness to work together as a family unit , most are taking low paying jobs but sons, daughters, mother and father all tend to have jobs and all contribute to the household, once one is paid for they buy another, rarely are they going into huge debts or bankruptcy, they are taxpapers assets to the community often more so than many of the young Canadian who are too spoilt to work at lower paying job or rack up debts wanting every thing right away even though they cannot afford,  that they will never pay off.  , I lived amongst them as a struggling single mom, they were my neighbours, my child sitters , yes they got handouts to start off but they also become tax payers and put many of the lazy  welfare Canadian to shame but then those are the ones that complained the loudest but I sure did not see them going out in the middle of the night picking dew worms, or doing child care inorder to make themselves self sufficient or trying to ensure their kids got  college or university educations so as not to be a drain on the system, maybe my own fall into poverty  in my 20's was a good thing it opened my eyes and helped prevent me becoming a cynical bigot, even though I doubt I would have become  but it gave me first hand views to appreciate them, why do some change and become hostile and bitter ??? because  often daily  they  are  confronted by bigotry and it wears them down when it continues long enough
Hmm, have your invaders wanted to change your official language to Spanish? I agree about the people buying things well beyond their means, but then, that's why ad-agencies get the big bucks and tall office-buildings! As to the "Jobs Natives Won't Do"(TM), it's only partially true: "Jobs Natives Won't Do that illegals won't do cheaper!"
Wait until some illegals start marching in your streets demanding the same rights, privileges, and wages as people who come in the RIGHT way!
And they want to convert your country to their way of life, including their language, when yours has worked better for a couple centuries, else they would be sneaking out, not in, right?
Oh, and they want your taxes to fund their education in their language, and even in-state tuition for colleges (Even Americans from out of State, but with THE STATES don't get that particular perk!)...and since "The Jobs Natives Won't Do" barely require a brain, let alone a college degree, one can only assume they hope to usurp our higher-echelon jobs? Whatever happened to just being satisfied ripping off our welfare and medical systems?


< Message edited by EPGAH -- 10/17/2007 7:01:32 PM >

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 7:05:46 PM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
Some folks manage to make good points on boths sides of many issues without parroting agit-prop. 

Then wherefore came that crap about Aztlan? That's a straight copy&paste of pro-illegal agitprop, isn't it?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
Ahhh.. so you are a citizen of Aztlan? I don't blame you for being upset about the invaders...

If their old ways are so great, why isn't their country better than orus, and Americans sneaking into Mexico "to make a better life", and the ruination of the quality-of-life of Mexicans going down as the invading Americans' go up?
Oh, that's right, Mexico has one of the most draconian anti-immigrant laws EVER! Legal or illegal, doesn't matter, you can't own land, can't hold a job, can't run for office, and they sure as hell won't waste their time, money, and resources nursemaiding your children with free medical care or education!
So why are Americans expected to do the above for theirs?

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 8:38:47 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Then wherefore came that crap about Aztlan? That's a straight copy&paste of pro-illegal agitprop, isn't it?


So you recognize it in others, but not in the mirror? Saying Aztlan pushes button just like 'bankrupting our educational system' does.

There is an interesting discussion to be had on why both parties have encouraged the illegal situation in America for many decades, when other countries find the same policies to be against their self-interest.

But it won't be held while tactics designed to shut down discourse hold sway.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 8:58:28 PM   
EPGAH


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Ok, then what do you call a bunch of illegals who don't feel like they have to learn? And indeed, they don't, they've managed to do an international copy&paste of their corrupt society to our side of the border!
Whom does it benefit to turn America into the same Third World hellhole that the illegals are supposedly fleeing FROM?
And how is it that Americans are racist when one of the big illegal-advocate groups calls themselves "La Raza"--literally "The Race"?
And which side always brings up the racial component of illegals? I, personally don't care what color they are, if they can't come in legally, they don't deserve to be here!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 9:08:43 PM   
farglebargle


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La Raza isn't tossing people into prison without a trial, and torturing them for years, the hallmark of the 3rd World Hellhole.

Bush supporters are.

So, perhaps give credit for the destruction of American Values where the credit is due.

You know, Hitler used the same scare tactics as Bush, to deflect legitimate criticism of his regime. Substitute "Jew" for "Mexican" in any of the diatribes posted here, and it would play perfectly among 1930's "Good Germans".



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 10/17/2007 9:09:17 PM >


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 9:13:23 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Ok, then what do you call a bunch of illegals who don't feel like they have to learn?


Free riders?  Who BTW, come both home grown and imported.


quote:

Whom does it benefit to turn America into the same Third World hellhole that the illegals are supposedly fleeing FROM?
 

Again, a human attribute, not a national one.  How many pristine wildernesses have been turned into overcrowded replicas of the place where people came from to 'get away'?


quote:

And how is it that Americans are racist when one of the big illegal-advocate groups calls themselves "La Raza"--literally "The Race"?

Have you read Vasconcelos? Or the material from those who use 'La Raza' to mean 'The People', along the lines of 'We the people...'?

Movements and ideas evolve and can be coopted over time, not everyone who feels that La Raza should have a better life is a member of  NOA.


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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 9:25:18 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


Movements and ideas evolve and can be coopted over time, not everyone who feels that La Raza should have a better life is a member of NOA.


Case in point. Flag Pins.

Nothing WRONG with a Flag Pin, but just look at the kind of assholes these days who are wearing them!



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/17/2007 10:41:36 PM   
EPGAH


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That may be true, but "La Raza" ARE a racist group, by definition...Simply that The Race isn't the WHITE race exempts them from the normal laws and scrutiny that govern that sort of thing? Or even the obvious negative connotations therefrom?
What would the IMMEDIATE reaction of EVERY minority, legal or illegal, be to a WHITE group calling itself "The Race", marching in the street, threatening to bring America's economy to its knees?
Is it only xenophobic racism when it's the AMERICANS doing it?

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 2:36:09 AM   
Alumbrado


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By your choice of definitons...just because there is a literal definition of 'La Raza', doesn't mean that it cannot also be used as 'The People'.

So answer your own question...what is the immediate reaction of minorities that there is a group in America following a document that starts by calling themselves "We the people..."?

But you seem to be ThompsonX's clone in refusing to answer direct questions or engage in rational discourse...feel free to parrot whatever it is you are being indoctrinated with, just don't expect everyone to be stupid enough to fall for it.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 7:02:00 AM   
EPGAH


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Wee already have a document that started with "We the People...of the United States"...so we don't need any competing documents by "We the People of Mexico", or "We the People of El Salvador" or China, or Africa, or the moon.
If they want the benefits of America's socety, they can obey the laws of America's society. If their "culture" is above our laws, they can either declare war on us and prove it, or retreat to areas that celebrate their "culture".
Oddly, areas infected with THEIR "culture" look like third-world hellholes, while areas settled with American culture have beautiful buildings, lower crime (You cannot eliminate crime, someone from YOUR OWN country will eventually believe their "needs" supercede the law, you need some sort of punishment in place, "make an example" of them, etc....But given that we already have criminals, we don't want to "involuntarily import" more!), a common language, and money that build true wealth, in the form of cooperative ventures, and even public works buildings that don't make a profit, but help the Greater Good, such as libraries, schools, hospitals--you know, the things illegals want to usurp and use up, but not pay into the upkeep of!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 7:36:00 AM   
Alumbrado


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That's more of a  tap dance, than an answer.
La Raza has worked for the civil rights of all Hispanics for quite some time. Cherry picking one definition and ignoring the reality in order to tie all Hispanics to violent crime and overthrow of the status quo is pretty bogus.

The 'issue' of the illegals is conveniently hot now that elections are coming up, and fodder is needed to scare the lumpen into voting against the 'evil Them'. I had supposed you smarter than to fall for it.

Regarding the'hellhole' assertion, you have ruled out any places where Hispanics live that look nice, by declaring that if they are beautiful, they must be be occupied by 'American culture'. That's a classic logical fallacy.
In point of fact, those hellholes have always been here, and anyone occupying the lower rung of the socio-economic ladder is likely to be living there because it is what they can afford.

Some of those in each area are crooks, and some of them are the 'free riders' I previously brought up.

And none of the polemic rhetoric is going to address the real issue of why our politicians, on both sides of the aisle, want a massive number of people to occupy the bottom rung of the ladder, even if it means overloading the system in a manner that any other country would act to stop.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 8:22:09 AM   
EPGAH


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Just because they're born Mexican (Which is not a RACE, it's a declaration of loyalty to MEXICO, an increasingly hostile foreign country), doesn't mean they can't learn English, act American (or as they more poetically put it, "act white"), and take care of their environment, rather than committing crimes and covering for each other. Think of Salma Hayek, Eva Longoria, or some other Hispanic who had learned English, lives in a house WITHOUT trashing it, and got paid for following directions! (That, too, is part of capitalism, but is often forgotten amid screams of "racist!") Then, naturally, they turn around and give a nice, hard CHOMP to the hand that feeds them by advocating the "plight" of Hispanics in America! Eva Longoria wants to take it a step further, and make a movie about how bad illegals' lives are. From half-American bimbo to pure Mexican supporter...What do you want to bet that once she makes that movie, her career will be "Gone in 60 Seconds", and even a "Fistful of Dollars" couldn't save her? Maybe she hasn't made it yet because she is trying to save up "A Few Dollars More" before she commits political suicide!
The illegals have always been an issue bubbling under the surface, but until recently, anyone who thought the invasion had reached sufficient numbers to be a threat was some kind of lunatic fringe. Then two years ago, they start marching in our streets, claiming there's enough of "them" to FORCE "us" to make changes in OUR civilization. There might be, but doesn't that usually require a declaration of war? The "lunatic fringe" was vindicated, but how do you stop an enemy army claiming to be 40 million strong, demanding "justice", but complaining when some of their army gets deported (I.e., careful what you wish for! )?
When you go to another country, in order to show respect, you:
A.) Demand they change their language and laws to suit you
B.) Blend in as much as possible, don't make trouble, and hope their law-enforcers don't notice you
C.) Trash their country, and claim it's because you're poor, or that it's part of your "culture"
D.) Offer them money to temporarily mimic your language, and make you as comfortable as possible in their country--until your money runs out, when you abruptly become persona non grata!
E.) Both A and C

If you're an American tourist, it's D
If you're a wanted criminal, it's B
If you're an illegal, it SHOULD be B, but it usually turns out to be E!

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 8:40:50 AM   
Alumbrado


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You brought up the claim that La Raza was a racial thing, I've debunked it.

And please do explain how it is biting the hand that feeds them to advocate civil rights for Hispanic citizens of the US? 
(Hint: If you dont want racism to be raised, don't bring it up first, and don't complain about legal Hispanics who want the same rights as anyone else.  Dismissing the real problem behind the government's apparently illogical policy on illegal immigration doesn't help your case either.)

So far all you have contributed is regurgitation of someone else's polemic rhetoric.

Thinking for yourself is harder than being a parrot, but if you work at it, it will become a habit.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 8:56:54 AM   
Owner59


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"If their old ways are so great, why isn't their country better than orus," 
 
"Ok, then what do you call a bunch of illegals who don't feel like they have to learn? And indeed, they don't, they've managed to do an international copy&paste of their corrupt society to our side of the border"
 
"That may be true, but "La Raza" ARE a racist group, by definition..."
 
"Just because they're born Mexican (Which is not a RACE, it's a declaration of loyalty to MEXICO, an increasingly hostile foreign country), doesn't mean they can't learn English, act American "
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is what one gets, ...when arrogance is mixed with ignorance.

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 9:01:39 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Wee already have a document that started with "We the People...of the United States"


I see it doesn't say "We the Lawful Residents" or "We the Citizens"... So, how do you go from the Open and Inclusive definition of "People" to the restrictive definition you apparently prefer?


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Giving up war? - 10/18/2007 9:06:06 AM   
EPGAH


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Ok, you're right, I should've been more clear, Salma&Eva are advocating for ILLEGAL Hispanics...Hispanic AMERICAN citizens already have the same rights and privileges as everyone else, but are more suspect, because of the actions of their illegal brethren. Naturally there is a stereotype of legal Hispanics protecting illegals, but it is true, if you have a loose allegiance to America, and you want some relative or "friend" here, you'll get them here, whether or not it's strictly legal!
So naturally, if you see someone who looks X, if you have had bad dealings with X in the past (For instance, at my college, 10 Mexicans--who were luckily NOT students--shot 5 students...That qualifies, don't you think?), you'll distrust them. They'll have to work TWICE as hard to prove they're on YOUR side--or they have the same opportunities to prove the stereotypes are correct!
As to biting the hand that feeds them, their old culture has done NOTHING for them, while America has paid them, and in some (admittedly rare) cases, made them rich. As such, when the two cultures conflict, the AMERICAN one--the one that benefits them--should be the one they laud the virtues of, their old "culture" is simply baggage that holds them back...LadyEllen made a terrific post about that, in another thread!
Also, don't you think that the sudden burst of competence ICE is experiencing is timed to coincide with elections? Especially knowing that all the scum they deport will come right back, since they have no beating or branding or other disincentive, or even a mark that would help identify repeat offenders...Even so, we haven't had such a mighty sweep since Eisenhower's Project Wetback (Which later administrations APOLOGIZEZD FOR?)
As to political hay, that is possible too, since illegals can't vote...Unless, of course, they go to New York and get a driver's license, then trek back down to some other state with motor-voter laws...Selling out one's nation for political gain was never so easy!

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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