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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

1. Studies? no. books, treatises and papes? yes. Sadism almost invariable involves elements of control and the excitement/intoxication of power. As such it is at once completely contrary to the submissive and slave natures. However, people have more complex makeups and as I touched on in the other thread, there are additional dominant traits that they may possess, hence sadism may not always be completely contradictory, but it need not also be a fundamental.

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2. Yes, although this more in relevance to other psychological traits, it does transfer to the study of sadism/masochism. Innate recognition and empathy for the suffering induced is the enabling mechanism that allows a sadist to "feel the high". This is not the same as the shared commonality of the power/control elements. That is to say, that part of the experience is identical, but the natural sadist experiences and connects at a further level above that of a non-sadist.

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3. No, but then, these trends aren't largely documented. This is extrapolation.

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4. No, since those that are employed professionally are generally aware of the necessary precautions and do exercise sufficient care in their sessions to ensure the safety of the clients.

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5. Yes, but the genuine sadist has a stronger natural connection and empathy for the pain being inflicted, and a heightened awareness of the moment to moment state of the subject.

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

1. Studies? no. books, treatises and papes? yes. Sadism almost invariable involves elements of control and the excitement/intoxication of power. As such it is at once completely contrary to the submissive and slave natures. However, people have more complex makeups and as I touched on in the other thread, there are additional dominant traits that they may possess, hence sadism may not always be completely contradictory, but it need not also be a fundamental.

You're making the fatal flaw of presuming that it's the nature of submissives/slaves is to submit to everyone.  Frankly, I don't know of many submissives/slaves who submit to everyone, or even most people, or even quite a few people.  The only submissives/slaves I know submit to one, or a limited few, individuals.  Are they denying their nature?  Heck no.  Many submissives engage in relationships beyond their significant other(s) in which they are dominant at work, with friends and family, with people on the street, etc.  Are they denying their nature?  Not a bit.  In point of fact, there is no such thing as a "slave nature" that has any relevance beyond their personal relationship with their significant other(s).
 
As for the second half of your statement, you're simply that sadism may or may not be "natural" for a submissive/slave, just as it may or may not be "natural" for a Dominant.  In other words, it completely negates your previous assertion that sadism tends to be an "unnatural" and "breakaway" trait in submissives/slaves.  I do believe you're confusing "common" on the macro level with "natural" on the individual level as if the two had any relationship at all (they do not).

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2. Yes, although this more in relevance to other psychological traits, it does transfer to the study of sadism/masochism. Innate recognition and empathy for the suffering induced is the enabling mechanism that allows a sadist to "feel the high". This is not the same as the shared commonality of the power/control elements. That is to say, that part of the experience is identical, but the natural sadist experiences and connects at a further level above that of a non-sadist.

In other words, there are no studies linking this to "natural" and "breakaway" sadism and you've chosen to make a connection that does not exist.  You're welcome to do that, but the rest of us should know it so we can consider that as we evaluate your post.  I'm also left to wonder what constitutes a "further" level?  How is that determined?  Please direct me to an online source where I can read about this relevant to "natural" and "breakaway" sadism.

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3. No, but then, these trends aren't largely documented. This is extrapolation.

You stated it as a fact, not your own undocumented extrapolation.  That is pertinent information for anyone considering this thread.

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4. No, since those that are employed professionally are generally aware of the necessary precautions and do exercise sufficient care in their sessions to ensure the safety of the clients.

So submissives/slaves that may have a profitable outlet for their sadistic interests as a ProDomme do not pose an increased threat, yet you stated that submissives/slaves engaged in sadism do pose an increased threat.  Surely you can appreciate the contradiction in those two sentiments.

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5. Yes, but the genuine sadist has a stronger natural connection and empathy for the pain being inflicted, and a heightened awareness of the moment to moment state of the subject.

You're assuming that the submissive/slave does not, and cannot, be a "genuine" sadist.  And yet you began your reply (in section 1) by saying that sadism may or may not be natural in a submissive/slave.  Heck, one could argue that their experience as a bottom would provide a stronger connection, greater empathy and heightened awareness of the moment to moment state of the subject.  They have personal experience that very few Tops might have.
 
John

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

Okay, first, what a person is, and how they interact with other people are two different things. No, you know what, forget it. I am not going to condense five plus years of study into two score forum posts for you. Either accept it or don't. I am not your teacher, you want to learn ,go out and learn. The materials are not going anywhere.

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It is late, I am tired, and I am in no mood to continue this jousting charade with people who do not even have the will to actually go read up on what they want to argue about. I don't give two flying figs what you think a submissive is, or a slave. I don't care if you understand the psychology of it or not. It is your life, not mine. Personally I prefer to know as much as possible and to continue advancing my education and growth.

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To summaries and end this foolish back and forth.

No, a slave nor submissive need not submit to everyone under the sun and their dog. To say otherwise is not merely foolish, it is ridiculous.

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Second, YES a slave or submissive may indeed be natural sadists, and this does happen, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

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Third, yes, it is my opinion, and one that is based on years of research. Don't like it? Tough, don't believe it, I am not interested in your scepticism. If you're honestly interested, go and take some basic courses in psychology, pick up some of the journals, and read some of the works by authors that either deal directly with the matter or deal with other matters that transfer to it. Twenty posts in a forum is nowhere near sufficient to explain.

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Fourth, there is plenty of evidence in favor of the differences between learned and practiced versus innate behaviors. You would do well to remember that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". There is more in support of these theories that there is against it. What is more, the correlation is born out by empirical observation.

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If you're interested in the difference, the term you would do best to search for is "learned sadism".

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I understand now though, that is fruitless to hope you will grasp any of this, since the very basics are either beyond your grasp, or beyond your desire to grasp.

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Edited to add: The study of psychology is almost without exception theoretical in nature. If you are not comfortable dealing with theories, expositions, postulations, and hypothesi , then  you are wasting your , my, and everyone trying to follow this discussion's time.

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

Okay, first, what a person is, and how they interact with other people are two different things. No, you know what, forget it. I am not going to condense five plus years of study into two score forum posts for you. Either accept it or don't. I am not your teacher, you want to learn ,go out and learn. The materials are not going anywhere.

Save the "believe it because I say it's true" for your local house of worship.  It doesn't fly here.  If you state it as fact, be prepared for folks to challenge you on it.  If supporting your assertion is beyond your ability, then perhaps you should reconsider posting it in the first place.

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It is late, I am tired, and I am in no mood to continue this jousting charade with people who do not even have the will to actually go read up on what they want to argue about. I don't give two flying figs what you think a submissive is, or a slave. I don't care if you understand the psychology of it or not. It is your life, not mine. Personally I prefer to know as much as possible and to continue advancing my education and growth.

I've asked you on several occasions to direct me (specifically) to articles that you claim support your contentions.  Thus far, you have not been able to do so.  Perhaps they do not exist (you would not be the first person to find the internet and begin making stuff up).

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To summaries and end this foolish back and forth.

No, a slave nor submissive need not submit to everyone under the sun and their dog. To say otherwise is not merely foolish, it is ridiculous.

Then you can understand how foolish and ridiculous it sounds when someone infers that submission is the "natural state" of submissives/slaves, and that sadism is "unnatural". 

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Second, YES a slave or submissive may indeed be natural sadists, and this does happen, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

And having said so, that compeletely invalidates your assertion that it is not natural, or a "breakaway" behavior.  Beyond the fact that you have no statistics to support your contention that it's the exception rather than the rule (personally, I know quite a few submissives/slaves that have sadistic traits as well, if only as a voyeur), you're simplisticly confusing "common" with "natural".  They are not interchangeable.

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Third, yes, it is my opinion, and one that is based on years of research. Don't like it? Tough, don't believe it, I am not interested in your scepticism. If you're honestly interested, go and take some basic courses in psychology, pick up some of the journals, and read some of the works by authors that either deal directly with the matter or deal with other matters that transfer to it. Twenty posts in a forum is nowhere near sufficient to explain.

I also have opinions based upon years of research, many of which trigger my "BS detector".  You've been asked for specifics that support your assertions, and in reply you point to the entirety of psychology.  That tells me that you either don't know your sources very well and can't identify them, or they don't exist.

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Fourth, there is plenty of evidence in favor of the differences between learned and practiced versus innate behaviors. You would do well to remember that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". There is more in support of these theories that there is against it. What is more, the correlation is born out by empirical observation.

Now you're introducing an entirely different issue (learned vs. innate behavior) to the discussion.  Do you have any evidence to support your inference that sadism is a "learned" behavior in submissives/slaves?  Is that your inference at all?  You're simply not clear as to what you mean, nor their relevance to the discussion at hand.  Of course, they may just be impressive sounding psychological terms thrown in for effect.

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If you're interested in the difference, the term you would do best to search for is "learned sadism".

What relevance does "learned sadism" have in this discussion?  Do you have any evidence that sadism is a "learned" behavior in submissives (as opposed to innate)?  If so, please disclose your sources.  If not, the term you might want to search is called "spewing crap and hoping people believe it without question because I'm unable to answer simple questions or provide supporting evidence".  Well, you may have to shorten that for a Google search.

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I understand now though, that is fruitless to hope you will grasp any of this, since the very basics are either beyond your grasp, or beyond your desire to grasp.

The basics?  What basics?  Your pontifications?  That's basically a fabrication.

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Edited to add: The study of psychology is almost without exception theoretical in nature. If you are not comfortable dealing with theories, expositions, postulations, and hypothesi , then  you are wasting your , my, and everyone trying to follow this discussion's time.

I'm not comfortable with folks who make things up on the spot, portray it as factual, and then backtrack to unsupported theory (read: fabrication) when called on it. 
 
John

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you think you are what again?!?

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ORIGINAL: laurell3

"Edited to add: The study of psychology is almost without exception theoretical in nature. If you are not comfortable dealing with theories, expositions, postulations, and hypothesi , then  you are wasting your , my, and everyone trying to follow this discussion's time." (quote by SixFootMaster) 
 
 
 
My point, exactly, all generalizations, and not especially helpful or relevant to the topic at hand, in fact reinforce the OP's position that some are stuck in stereotype and believe people have to be one way or the other, and it is the OP's discussion, not yours.
 
By the way you would be suprised at what I can grasp having had this conversation and many others with many many ACTUAL recognized experts in psychology.  But then again, in your eyes I'm just an inferior submissive and might hurt people, right?

 

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

I'm glad you feel comfortable in understanding simply what lays before your hands and eyes. Given your inabililty to even grasp the differnce between a submissive or slave, nor the wisdom to consider it possible that such distinctions exist, I'd have to say that any further attempt to discuss this is a waste of everyones time.

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

I'm glad you feel comfortable in understanding simply what lays before your hands and eyes. Given your inabililty to even grasp the differnce between a submissive or slave, nor the wisdom to consider it possible that such distinctions exist, I'd have to say that any further attempt to discuss this is a waste of everyones time.

How can you expect me, or anyone else, to grasp a difference between slave and submissive when you don't know yourself?  You claim (repeatedly) that there are traits unique to slaves and unique to submissives.  Yet in your only (aborted and abandoned) attempt to list even a few of those traits, it was clearly demonstrated that they were not unique at all and did nothing to distinguish between slave and submissive.
 
Given that you are unable to provide even a few examples of these traits that are unique to slaves and submissives, I can reasonbly make one of the following conclusions:
 
1.  The differences you claim to exist (but cannot specify) do not really exist.
 
2.  You're too inexperienced to appreciate that what is written in erotic fiction novels does not exist real time.
 
3.  You know the differences, but can't share them because your contract with the 4,000 year old secret European House forbids you to do so upon penalty of expulsion.
 
The rest of your post is simply window dressing and a bibliography.  I can do that as well (and my books are signed by the authors), but it would add nothing to the discussion from me anymore than it does from you (which is to say it adds nothing at all).
 
You've made the claim that these differences exist.  In fact you've made plenty of claims.  For once, just once, substantiate your unfounded assertions.  Where are these traits that are unique to slaves and submissives?  You'd think they'd be in every BDSM book and all over the internet.  Just point them out, provide a link, copy and paste... something for crying out loud. 
 
John

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ORIGINAL: TakenPet

I myself have a sadistic streak as a slave, but I do not enjoy inflicting pain unless you view humiliation as "pain."  In my case as a slave I much prefer to have the pain inflicted upon me it is something I have asked for.  I do not however view myself to be a switch, and I guess it depends on how you view the definition of Dominant.  As far as what everyone likes it will vary and there is nothing wrong with liking what you like and doing what you like so long as it is discussed within your relationship and is not crossing any "boundaries."
Just my 2 cents ... hope it makes sense .. lol 

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ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Why do you title yourself as a slave when obiviously your not.

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

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ORIGINAL: TakenPet

I myself have a sadistic streak as a slave, but I do not enjoy inflicting pain unless you view humiliation as "pain."  In my case as a slave I much prefer to have the pain inflicted upon me it is something I have asked for.  I do not however view myself to be a switch, and I guess it depends on how you view the definition of Dominant.  As far as what everyone likes it will vary and there is nothing wrong with liking what you like and doing what you like so long as it is discussed within your relationship and is not crossing any "boundaries."
Just my 2 cents ... hope it makes sense .. lol 

Physical and emotional pain are only two kinds of "suffering", sadism does encompass a variety of other expressions. Being sadistic or not is neither better nor worse than the other, it is simply what you are.

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

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ORIGINAL: TakenPet

I myself have a sadistic streak as a slave, but I do not enjoy inflicting pain unless you view humiliation as "pain."  In my case as a slave I much prefer to have the pain inflicted upon me it is something I have asked for.  I do not however view myself to be a switch, and I guess it depends on how you view the definition of Dominant.  As far as what everyone likes it will vary and there is nothing wrong with liking what you like and doing what you like so long as it is discussed within your relationship and is not crossing any "boundaries."
Just my 2 cents ... hope it makes sense .. lol 

Physical and emotional pain are only two kinds of "suffering", sadism does encompass a variety of other expressions. Being sadistic or not is neither better nor worse than the other, it is simply what you are.

If being sadistic is "simply what you are", is that not an observation that sadism is innate?  Earlier you said that sadism in submissives/slaves is a "breakaway" trait that isn't natural.  This is like a great tennis match.  I wonder which of your competing claims will win.
 
John

P.S. - You still have not provided any of the much promised and long awaited traits that are unique to slaves and submissives.  Inquiring minds want to know.

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ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

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ORIGINAL: laurell3

"Edited to add: The study of psychology is almost without exception theoretical in nature. If you are not comfortable dealing with theories, expositions, postulations, and hypothesi , then  you are wasting your , my, and everyone trying to follow this discussion's time." (quote by SixFootMaster) 
 
 
 
My point, exactly, all generalizations, and not especially helpful or relevant to the topic at hand, in fact reinforce the OP's position that some are stuck in stereotype and believe people have to be one way or the other, and it is the OP's discussion, not yours.
 
By the way you would be suprised at what I can grasp having had this conversation and many others with many many ACTUAL recognized experts in psychology.  But then again, in your eyes I'm just an inferior submissive and might hurt people, right?

 

In my eyes you're just a person on the internet. I don't know you from Adam (or Eve). Turn it around, do you honestly think you're the only one that has sat down and enjoyed long debates and discussions with experts in psychology?

It's interesting that you talk about being stuck in stereotypes, since that is what I'm actively trying break open. There is a great deal of muddy water, confusion, and misunderstanding - but it seems that some prefer to keep it that way.