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RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/25/2007 7:59:05 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

It's pretty self evident, Rover. Conversation is almost exclusively devoted to how, and what, not who and why.


You seem fond of "self evident" statements that don't require you to actually support what you say.  But let's see what is evident to anyone that cares to look at the topics being discussed.  A quick perusal of the topics on these message boards finds almost no threads about "how to (fill in the blank)" and quite a few about who people are and why they act as they do.  If I'm missing something, please feel free to point it out for me. 

quote:


As for pre-existing standards, the pretty much universal pool of WIITWD demonstrated here. The manner in which you do attempt to enforce your own beliefs and understandings on others, particularly those who are new to the boards, essentially directing them in what to believe and what to do and what is expected of them, rather than encouraging the person to explore who and what they are for themselves and to come to understand their own unique nature and needs.


I've told no one what to believe or do.  I've engaged an individual in intellectual discussion about a theory he has portrayed as factual.  People are free to read what we both have to say, make up their own minds, and decide for themselves (even if they're slaves) what they choose to believe.  But in the interest of informed consent, they should be given as much information as possible in order to come to their own conclusions.  No one here has the right to spew whatever they like in a vacuum, without dissent. 

quote:


For example, the fellow earlier who said "it rides just fine as it is, why fix what aint broke" - demonstrating what to me is a lack of ultimate caring for the submissive or slave involved in such a relationship - dismissive of her own needs over his own, dismissive of any deeper understanding of the woman.


Why is caring for a slave even a concern?  Afterall, you've said that they need to be treated and owned like a possession.  You listed the following as an identifying characteristic to slaves:

quote:


The desire to be possessed/owned in the sense of a possesion.


That's another contradictory and irreconcileable statement from you.  And why should the slave care how she is treated?  Afterall, you said that another characteristic unique to slaves is:

quote:


Fulfilment through the anihilation of self


If she has no sense of self, then how she is treated by her owner wouldn't concern her in the least.  Again, you're contradicting yourself in an irreconcileable manner.  Heck, if she even thought about taking some action on her own behalf she'd be in contrast with another of the unique and identifying characteristics you proposed for slaves:

quote:


A rejection or innate abhorence of control of themselves, and a general malaise when forced to do so.


You're not an utter moron, so it's impossible for you not to realize how many times you've been caught contradicting yourself, fibbing, fabricating, etc.  And let me assure you, it has not escaped anyone else's observation either.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/25/2007 8:10:37 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		You don't care for your possessions? I do, particularly those that are most important to me. I took part in field archery for two years, though I haven't the opportunity to do so now. I took particularly good care of my bow, clean old wax from the strings, apply new wax, making sure every joint and fastener was tight and secure, taking care when attaching sight pins so as not to damage the riser et al. I also took the time to learn its idiosyncracies and individuality, so that in competition, it would behave exactly as I wanted and needed it to. The fact that something is a possession does not inherently make it worthless or unworthy of detailed care and attention.

To qualify as should be undertood from the more detailed exposition earlier - the annihilation of the ego part of the self, that is, the will and self-active part of the person, leaving in tact the heart and mind, and individual beauty. Supplanting in it's entirity the will of one for the will of another.

Edited to add:

quote:

You're not an utter moron


I'm flattered.


< Message edited by SixFootMaster -- 10/25/2007 8:12:13 PM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/25/2007 8:15:21 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I say, what took you so long to notice?
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

when anyone tells me "you're sooooo weird" i reply with "thanks!" and a big toothy grin.....

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/25/2007 8:25:27 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

You don't care for your possessions? I do, particularly those that are most important to me.


So you're suggesting that everyone should take care of their possessions as you do?  Talk about a "one true way"... Some things I take care of, and others I enjoy using for the sake of using.  Still others I enjoy breaking.  Sometimes it's fulfilling to break something and discard it.  It's my right to do so.  I seem to recall a thread on breaking and someone advocating it....
 
What point is there in owning a slave, having a slave as a possession, if you're forced to take care of it to someone else's expectations (like yours, for instance).  You might as well drop the slave and own a princess, so you can put her up on a pedestal and give her daily manicures and pedicures.


quote:


I took part in field archery for two years, though I haven't the opportunity to do so now. I took particularly good care of my bow, clean old wax from the strings, apply new wax, making sure every joint and fastener was tight and secure, taking care when attaching sight pins so as not to damage the riser et al. I also took the time to learn its idiosyncracies and individuality, so that in competition, it would behave exactly as I wanted and needed it to. The fact that something is a possession does not inherently make it worthless or unworthy of detailed care and attention.


Nor does it inherently make it worth detailed care and attention.  Owners should, and do, make it worth whatever they want to make it worth.  That's the nature of ownership... if your neighbor lets his bow sit out in the rain, sun and snow.. slowly deteriorating... you have no business telling him he needs to take better care of it, or worse yet forcing him to do so.  Same with any other possession.  There's an acronym for that... MYOB.

quote:


To qualify as should be undertood from the more detailed exposition earlier - the annihilation of the ego part of the self, that is, the will and self-active part of the person, leaving in tact the heart and mind, and individual beauty. Supplanting in it's entirity the will of one for the will of another.


Ah, so now that you're caught in yet another contradiction, it's time to go back and revise what you said.  And what a revision it is.  Now it's not "really" annihilation of the self, it's annihilation of some of the self while leaving certain parts of it intact that have become helpful to you in a more recent theory.  Though I cannot fathom what you propose the "heart and mind, and individual beauty" to be.  Beauty is entirely in the eye of the beholder, the heart is equally subjective, and "the mind" is an exceptionally expansive term (I would have thought it included the self). 
 
In the future, please make a point of telling us which of your factual statements are subject to revision.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/25/2007 8:28:35 PM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/25/2007 8:31:19 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		It's not a revision, was stated pretty early in the conversation. I can't help it if you're failing to keep track of everything - perhaps use the "< prev" button a bit more?

In addition, it is absolutely possible to annihilate the soul component too, and that, as I've said , is an abomination. Although I said that in private.

You asked "why is caring for a slave even a concern" - I told you why, because I care for my possessions, particularly those that are important to me. Is this another case of you not "getting" the answer to the question you asked?

Edited to add: I'm not telling anyone how to take care of their possessions, I pointed out a specific example that to me was a poor a way to treat your slave/submissive, but I also said such relationships are invariably happy. Do stop trying to paint my words as something they aren't.


< Message edited by SixFootMaster -- 10/25/2007 8:33:45 PM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/25/2007 8:47:40 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

It's not a revision, was stated pretty early in the conversation. I can't help it if you're failing to keep track of everything - perhaps use the "< prev" button a bit more?


It's a revision of your previously stated identifying characteristic unique to slaves.  I copied and posted it verbatim.  And you're right, I am having a hard time keeping track of your many competing and contradictory statements.  I should just step aside and enjoy watching you have a compelling argument with yourself.

quote:


In addition, it is absolutely possible to annihilate the soul component too, and that, as I've said , is an abomination. Although I said that in private.


Two weeks ago I said there would be horrible wild fires in California.  Of course, I said that in private.  You believe me, don't you? 

quote:


You asked "why is caring for a slave even a concern" - I told you why, because I care for my possessions, particularly those that are important to me. Is this another case of you not "getting" the answer to the question you asked?


Nope, the point is that not everyone cares for their possessions as you do.  Yet you seem to feel that they should.  I 'get' that loudly and clearly.

quote:


Edited to add: I'm not telling anyone how to take care of their possessions, I pointed out a specific example that to me was a poor a way to treat your slave/submissive, but I also said such relationships are invariably happy. Do stop trying to paint my words as something they aren't.


You're not telling anyone how to do it, but if they don't do it your way it's a "poor" way to treat a slave/submissive.  Says who?  You?  Who made you the grand poohbah that determines what are the "good" (right?) and "poor" (wrong?) ways to treat slaves/submissives?  If you weren't so comical, it would be offensive. 
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/25/2007 8:57:56 PM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/25/2007 9:37:19 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		What part of "To me" is hard for you to understand, Rover? Yes, I say what is a poor way to treat a slave, for me. Who else?

Edited to add:

I don't disbelieve you, for all I know you did. If so, congrats, go buy a lottery ticket before it runs out.

Edited again to add:

quote:

Nope, the point is that not everyone cares for their possessions as you do.  Yet you seem to feel that they should.  I 'get' that loudly and clearly.


Absolutely. Of course I feel that they should, and there's nothing wrong in that, whether they do or don't is up to them. I also feel that sewing someones pussy shut is a patently bad idea. Certainly not interested in doing it myself, but I'm not trying to force my feelings of what is and isn't good on other people.


< Message edited by SixFootMaster -- 10/25/2007 9:41:53 PM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 1:33:53 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster


quote:

Nope, the point is that not everyone cares for their possessions as you do.  Yet you seem to feel that they should.  I 'get' that loudly and clearly.


Absolutely. Of course I feel that they should, and there's nothing wrong in that, whether they do or don't is up to them. I also feel that sewing someones pussy shut is a patently bad idea. Certainly not interested in doing it myself, but I'm not trying to force my feelings of what is and isn't good on other people.



Perhaps things are different down under, but here in North America we try to be tolerant of other people's kinks, even if we don't share them.  And for the record, saying that something is a "bad idea" *is* forcing your feelings of what is and isn't good on other people.  In fact, it is precisely that.
 
I can assure you, expressing that sort of opinion in these parts would make you a most unwelcome guest.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 4:38:44 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		So... if someone is doing something like sewing their submissive or slaves orifices closed, it's not valid to give my opinion that this is a bad idea, to me? What about if they are kicking them in the head?

Merely stating an opinion that something is a bad idea or a poor way to take care of someone is not enforcing your opinions on other people, it is presenting them for consideration. In the end, everyone is the master of their own mind.


_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 4:58:17 PM   
AngelWingsOnly


Posts: 7
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		Well being new here, you just opened my eyes to something I never thought about.  Now, I'm scared and twice as confused.


Angel

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 5:04:34 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

So... if someone is doing something like sewing their submissive or slaves orifices closed, it's not valid to give my opinion that this is a bad idea, to me?


First of all, if you must think that way then you'd be well advised to keep your thought to yourself.  If you open your mouth, do not be surprised if others voice their opinion that it's a bad idea to have you lurking about and that you should leave and not return.  Of course, you decide what works for you and accept the consequences.

Secondly, thinking that way about other people's kinks is exceptionally closed minded.  They may not be for you, but it's not your place to decide that they are "bad" or "wrong" for everyone.  That's an example of "the one true way" (ie: your way) that is not welcome in most circles.  People look upon such intolerance the same way the look upon racism.

And finally, I have personally attended several demos, scenes and workshops that included the sewing of a slave's/submissive's labia.  Even though it isn't my cup of tea and I wouldn't choose to engage in that kind of activity, not once did it occur to me that it's a bad idea for those who consent to participate. 
 
Is it possible that you simply do not express yourself very well, or do you really think this way?  If you really think this way, you might want to reconsider whether you want to socialize with other lifestylers... online or real time.

quote:


What about if they are kicking them in the head?


What about it?  Have you ever heard of a take down scene?  Or a resistance scene?  Like anything else, kicking in the head is not in and of itself a dangerous activity.  There is a limit as to how hard you can kick.
 
Cripes, I've seen carving scenes (quite bloody, I assure you), scenes with a power nailer, a sixteen hook suspension (hooks in the back) and quite a bit worse than kicking in the head.  You've probably seen worse at the local Australian Rules Football game.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SixFootMaster)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 5:09:26 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Like anything else, kicking in the head is not in and of itself a dangerous activity.  There is a limit as to how hard you can kick. 
 
You are kidding me right?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 5:14:35 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Like anything else, kicking in the head is not in and of itself a dangerous activity.  There is a limit as to how hard you can kick. 
 
You are kidding me right?


No, I'm not kidding you at all.  You can flog someone in the head, you can use a cane on their head, you can hit them with a baseball bat in the head... provided you do it within certain limitations (ie: not too hard, and not too often, and not in the eyes).  Try it for yourself.  In fact, I'll bet you have.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 5:18:35 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		No, I'm not kidding you at all.  You can flog someone in the head, you can use a cane on their head, you can hit them with a baseball bat in the head... provided you do it within certain limitations (ie: not too hard, and not too often, and not in the eyes).  Try it for yourself.  In fact, I'll bet you have.
 
John

Yes i definately could, but would i? Hell would freeze over first, not safe, not sane to kick someone in the head. It is so easy to damage the head, its not worth risking. Now pray do back yourself up and show me medical info that states it is safe to practice kicking someone in the head.
 
Oh and you'd be wrong i have not been flogged, caned, baseball batted or kicked in the head. Nor do i ever intend being so either.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 5:44:08 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

No, I'm not kidding you at all.  You can flog someone in the head, you can use a cane on their head, you can hit them with a baseball bat in the head... provided you do it within certain limitations (ie: not too hard, and not too often, and not in the eyes).  Try it for yourself.  In fact, I'll bet you have.
 
John

Yes i definately could, but would i? Hell would freeze over first, not safe, not sane to kick someone in the head. It is so easy to damage the head, its not worth risking. Now pray do back yourself up and show me medical info that states it is safe to practice kicking someone in the head.
 
Oh and you'd be wrong i have not been flogged, caned, baseball batted or kicked in the head. Nor do i ever intend being so either.


There is no medical evidence that states that anything we do is safe.  But there is a relative safety if practiced within certain limitations.  And some things such as cuttings, carvings, knife play, etc. are edgier than others.  Am I advocating kicking someone in the head during a scene?  Nope.  Have I seen it done?  Yes, I have.  Can it be done (relatively) safely?  Of course.  Does that mean that you're kicking to make a forty yard field goal?  Not a chance.  Call it a love tap if you will, but it's still a kick.
 
You didn't grow up in the environment I did, evidently.  Maybe its a thing with boys.  But we all playfully hit ourselves and each other with various things and in various places, including the head (no, there wasn't any BDSM element to it... just boys being boys).  I can do it today... anyone can.  Go ahead, grab a baseball bat or broom handle or anything else that's handy.  Now bump it against your head.  I assure you, unless you get carried away, it won't leave a mark, won't cause bleeding, won't produce a contusion, won't cause a subdural hematoma or leave you drooling into your lap.
 
Could you seriously injure yourself or someone else if you wanted to.  Sure... if you wanted to.  But I'm assuming you don't want to.  So don't prove me wrong.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 5:49:26 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Ok so the medical evidence can't back you up. Could it be done in relative safety? Possibly. However there is far too much evidence of injuries caused by kicks in the head to mess around with it in my opinion.  
In your previous posts you never mentioned playful taps. Maybe you should be a little clearer in your definition of what is safe.
edited to add - when finding the limit of how hard to kick, well just how do you go about that?


< Message edited by missturbation -- 10/26/2007 5:51:14 PM >

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 6:23:43 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Ok so the medical evidence can't back you up.

 
Medical evidence cannot "back up" any BDSM activity.
 
quote:
Could it be done in relative safety? Possibly.

 
As relatively safe as any other edge play.  There is no "possible" about it.
 
quote:
However there is far too much evidence of injuries caused by kicks in the head to mess around with it in my opinion.  

 
There is far too much evidence of injuries from stabbings as well.  But knife play, another edgy form of play, can also be practiced in relative safety.   Relatively safe knife play, like relatively safe kicking (even in the head), is at least partly a function of playing within limitations.

quote:


In your previous posts you never mentioned playful taps. Maybe you should be a little clearer in your definition of what is safe.


In posts regarding knife play no one mentions not to stab to the hilt either.  At some point, common sense dictates that there are obvious limitations.  If they are not obvious, then one might want to reconsider whether they can safely engage in such play without prior instruction (at workshops, demos, etc.) or whether they can safely engage in that type of play at all (even with the benefit of instruction).  We do not all have the same abilities, and cannot all safely engage in the same activities as a result.

quote:


edited to add - when finding the limit of how hard to kick, well just how do you go about that?


If you do not know intuitively, then I strongly suggest attending a workshop or demonstration.  Perhaps even request some personal instruction over several sessions.  In any form of edge play, there are not many who play at the limits.  Those that do are exceptionally experienced, exceptionally brave, and exceptionally skilled.  Of course, some are just exceptionally foolish, but that's the nature of things.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 6:31:59 PM   
MrSpectacular


Posts: 1153
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		I think it is somewhat normal for a slave to have sadistic tendencies. What you enjoy in others and accept can easily become a part of you.



_____________________________

Yes I am Spectacular and they are real!

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 6:41:33 PM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline 		     I think that Rover has a very sincere point here.   Giving someone an enema can be unsafe, if you are unsure of what you are doing, you could puncture the anal canal.   For christ sakes, the anus is very sensitive and can tear during anal sex.   But most participate in anal activities and relatively it's safe.
   Honestly I think it is those edge play activities that people have never imagined could be considered 'kinky' that cause the ouch.  
      

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: you think you are what again?!? - 10/26/2007 7:41:05 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		Then paint me a more conservative flavor. I still see no harm in holding or expressing an opinion of any flavor. I do believe when it comes to that, that SSC is priori uno - and so long as they limitations and safety concerns are both understood and respected, that anything pretty much is fine. I would say, in reflection, that it is more the question of whether those limits and concerns are being respected or not that causes me to question. Twistedkytten described a situation where the dominant (used loosely) involved demonstrated absolutely no concern for her safety or the respect of the physical limits of the body, nor of her mind.

In a different Gorean thread, for example, a slave expressed that her master enjoyed having her cut herself, which I supported since it was evident that it was SSC and that went for her heart and mind as well as her body in his use and demands of her.


_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 100
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