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RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/10/2007 1:15:10 AM   
Guilty1974


Posts: 467
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: Den Haag
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Willowmoon
I am going to stop typing now as anything more i have to say on this topic will just be me getting angry.


This would be an example of a reason why someone may choose not to be in a relationship with someone mentally ill.


I'd say that depends. Knowing that sometimes you may need to step back, take a few deep breaths or leave a discussion, could also be a sign that soemone's having an anger management problem and is actually working on it (and might no be encouraged by your kind of remark).

On-topic: I don't think mentally ill people should never be casually played with, or be in a D/s relation. Whether anyone is willing to be involved in such a difficult relationship is a personal choice. If it's the person you love, you may well choose to learn how to deal with it.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/10/2007 1:49:47 AM   
shootingstar67


Posts: 195
Joined: 10/29/2007
Status: offline 		[
quote:

On-topic: I don't think mentally ill people should never be casually played with, or be in a D/s relation. Whether anyone is willing to be involved in such a difficult relationship is a personal choice. If it's the person you love, you may well choose to learn how to deal with it.



I don't think they should be casually played with either.You don't have to live with them or even collar them but there should be a real relationship/friendship.

< Message edited by shootingstar67 -- 11/10/2007 2:08:24 AM >

(in reply to Guilty1974)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/10/2007 2:47:58 AM   
girlslaveOfADog


Posts: 1
Joined: 6/3/2007
Status: offline 		Even after reading all this I still think I am not worth of a good treatment and sex with guys.
I am really not worth it  

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/10/2007 8:04:42 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shootingstar67

Have you ever run across a submissive who was obviously depressed or self destructive with low self regard?


Yes.

quote:

If so what did you do?


Different things for different ones.
In a word, "help."

quote:

Have you ever been tempted to play with someone willing and attractive but obviously not very strong mentally or emotionally?


Yes.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to shootingstar67)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/10/2007 8:34:57 PM   
bobbysgirl


Posts: 1
Joined: 6/17/2007
Status: offline 		Sexual deviance was classified as a mental illness under DSM III; it was not removed until DSM IV in 1985. We're all a little wacky but some standards.

"Mental illness" is a broad topic; there is a great deal of difference between PMDD,  mild depression, controllable OCD tendencies; and full blown psychosis.

Perhaps common sense is the best guide; get to know someone before committing to a relationship; only time and communication will reveal a persons' stability- or instability.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/10/2007 9:10:56 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bobbysgirl

Perhaps common sense is the best guide; get to know someone before committing to a relationship; only time and communication will reveal a persons' stability- or instability.

Well said, and a very good first post.  Welcome to the forums.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to bobbysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/12/2007 5:02:20 PM   
MissAnthropic


Posts: 40
Joined: 7/31/2007
Status: offline 		Hi A/all,

I believe that anyone who is being treated for thier mental illness, and has it well managed and under control is not a liability to themselves or others and quite able to engage in BDSM activities. I have depression/anxiety and at one stage a marked suicidal ideation, however that is well controlled with medication and counselling. I've got to the stage where if I feel unwell I simply make extra appointments and on occassion book myself into hospital. It's no more of a liability than any other illness and with open and honest communication so that safety is factored into the scene for your own mental wellbeing, there shouldnt be too many problems.

I do think that the real problem with mental illness and play is when someone has no sense of reality, and imho it's more of a problem if the Master is mentally ill in that he needs to be in control of the situation and know when to stop, whats real and whats play. For me that's a redlight, a warning to walk away. It's more of a problem with someone who has mental health issues who is undiagnoised and uncontrolled than someone who has been diagnoised and treated.

I see no real difference with mental illness than with any other type of physical illness, for example ashtma with breathplay, heart problems and obesity with adrenaline rushes from rape play etc. You simply need to tell your Master exactly what your problem is and even take them in to meet your counsellor so they can outline any possible triggers to avoid for example.  If He values his sub, he will take the time to understand her illness and work within those limitations.

missanthropic


(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/12/2007 5:19:08 PM   
Petronius


Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Willowmoon

I do have a mental illness it is an illness that will be with me for the rest of my life. Why should I be judged because of it? Why should i be prevented  from doing something that I enjoy just because of an illness? Would you prevent someone with a physical condition/illness from participating in this lifestyle.

Just because somebody suffers from depression does not mean that they are not mentally or emotionaly strong some of the strongest people i know have had major battles with depression and it is their strength that got them through it.



Very well put! Thanks!

We live in a society that is still laden with sex-negativity. As a consequence it marshalls every possible rationalization against sexual play, particularly in the form "I'm not saying this is bad because it is ... SEX ... I'm saying it is bad because it hurts the person / oppresses women / leads to crime / tears down society, etc."

Have I played with people who were depressed? Yeah, me included. And I can't think of a single time when the play deepened the depression.

(in reply to Willowmoon)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/12/2007 8:15:44 PM   
osocurious


Posts: 676
Joined: 11/2/2007
Status: offline 		Forgive me for posting where I maybe shouldn’t … but just wanted to take a minute to comment … Honestly … What a Really Interesting thread this is!!
I’ve really enjoyed reading E/everyone’s views concerning this topic.

As far as “mental illness” goes …
in a world that seems completely gone mad … who’s to say Who’s REALLY bent … and who’s just … erm … bent.
I mean look about “This” place … read through the threads … what do Y/you think a vanilla doctor is going to say about any of U/us???
*laughing*
seriously … in my view (for what little it might be worth ) .. a doctor making a diagnosis, is just another person with an opinion.
Despite all their well intended book knowledge … Doctors can and do make incorrect diagnosis.
A solid example of misdiagnosed mental illness ( again … just my view ) … would be of those persons brought up believing in a very real “Spirit” world … in which they see, hear, and communicate with the Spirits around them …. None believing Doctors often label these people as having schizophrenic tendencies.
Pahhhhhhhh … just because the doctor is deaf dumb and blind to the Spirits … doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

Who's to say that the Dom or Master is any better balanced then the sub or slave?
Maybe with in their own unique relationship ...they will live a completely balanced, genuinely happy life.
....hmmmm....  for some reason ... the word "enabling" suddenly comes to mind.   
Okies … enough of my incoherent babbling …time for my prozac

with sincere respect
~ curious ~

(in reply to Petronius)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/12/2007 8:20:59 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Why would you say you shouldn't post here?  Great post by the way, I enjoyed reading it and so true about these forums, although I have to tell you I suspect by the prior posts there are quite a few mental health practitioners in various forms amongst us.  What would they say?  Most likely what they usually do.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to osocurious)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/12/2007 9:18:41 PM   
osocurious


Posts: 676
Joined: 11/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Why would you say you shouldn't post here?
....erm.... because this section is titled "ask a Master" and I'm not ... also I'm really new here ... and suffering "new person" insecurities ...lol ...
*twitches*
and Thanks laurell3 ... I really do Love this topic!!

by the by I see that you’re correct about the “mental health” practitioners posting, so I want to add that I sincerely mean no disrespect to A/any one practicing mental health.
( side note …lol … why do we always refer to Doctors as “practicing” medicine … maybe that should be our first clue when referring to “diagnosis” )

My point being only that E/everyone is Mentally unique.
Who's to say who's balanced and who's not.
And I honestly believe that W/we each have our own mental health challenges.
( feck sake … who hasn’t suffered sever bouts of depression??
I’d worry more about the person walk'n 'round with a blank look and a constant smile  ... then someone who’s depressed )

A person’s life experiences colour the path they travel …
I would hope that a Dom or Master would have the mental balance (stability?? …erm strength?? ) and clarity of thinking … not to mention honor and integrity … to honestly judge whether He (or She) is in a “healthy” relationship with a sub or slave .
( …geeeeze … I can’t help laughing at my own words as I fantasize myself naked, collared cuffed, and chained … trembling as I kneel happily at the feet of a Strong Dominant Man … bearing the stripes, welts, and bruises .. recent evidence of our well balanced relationship.
*laughing my backside off*  )
As a sub … who sincerely desires rough sessions … am I mentally stable??
Are BDSM … D/s or M/s relationships the sign of  healthy mental stability for Any One???
... erm ….
I would certainly think it all depends on who Y/you ask … wouldn’t it??

< Message edited by osocurious -- 11/12/2007 9:20:13 PM >

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/12/2007 9:33:09 PM   
shyinini


Posts: 550
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

...it is not a part of the make-up of natural submission.


Mist I disagree with this broad generalization.
Who Does Depression Affect?

Depression can affect anyone, at anytime. And it doesn't just affect the person who is depressed. Friends, family, and others who care about the depressed person are affected as well.
At any one point in time at least five to 10 percent of the population is suffering from depression. Every year more than 17 million Americans suffer from Clinical Depression. It affects women, men, children, and the elderly. That means your spouse, brother, mother, child, or grandparent—even you—could become depressed. Click here to learn more about Symptoms of Depression.
Yet, some people are more at risk than others for developing depression. For example, women are affected about twice as often men. Other groups at high risk for depression include: people with a family history of depression, a negative or pessimistic outlook on life, a history of abuse, a serious medical illness, or a lot of stress in their lives. The mid- 30s is the average age for developing depression, with the frequency of depression increasing as people grow older. People of any age can become depressed, however, including young children. Click here to learn more about the Causes of Depression.
It may be hard to believe, but depression is one of the most common medical illnesses.
Having a Loved One with Depression
Having a friend, relative, loved one, or coworker who is depressed often affects you as well, because depression makes relationships difficult.
People who are depressed don't act the way they normally would and may depend on you more than usual or might not be as interested in spending time with you.
Depression can also make it difficult to talk freely and directly to friends and family. Anger, hostility, and resentment, in the depressed person, as well as friends or family members, complicates communication.
This may be difficult for you, as you may feel frustrated and helpless. But the more support you can offer a friend or loved one who is depressed, the better. It may help to remind yourself that a depressed person has a medical illness, and your support and understanding can make a world of difference.


Continue to:

I do think that folk here are not defining terms because mental illness and emotional illness can be seperate or they can be running along the same track or even twisted and migled together.
If I am not mistaken, a diagnosis of depression has a qualifier of abnormal serotonin recepters.  The continuum is great.
Mental illness is more on the line of severe psychiatrict disorders.
 
Seasonal affective disorder can hit some folk to the point of inability to function while others is just as miserable as a gloomy day.
I mention seasonal affective disorder cause we are heading in to the time of year where is is most abundant.
 
Besides, who has the corner market on "normal?"
 
Sir's devoted property
 

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you
is the only Man truly worthy of being called Sir.


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/12/2007 10:19:51 PM   
submissiveshe4


Posts: 15
Joined: 5/2/2005
Status: offline
BRAVO! 
Lack of information on someone else's part does not necessitate high blood pressure on yours :-) 

(in reply to Willowmoon)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/13/2007 2:49:54 AM   
MistressDeAnnya


Posts: 37
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		I like you osocurious
 
 


(in reply to osocurious)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/13/2007 4:08:04 AM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shootingstar67

Have you ever run across a submissive who was obviously depressed or self destructive with low self regard? If so what did you do?

Have you ever been tempted to play with someone willing and attractive but obviously not very strong mentally or emotionally?


There was a time when my sense of responsibility would out run my sense of self-preservation. I'd attempt to move entire mountain ranges to resolve the current crisis and then get that sub the help they needed. HOWEVER, I've noticed one common thread. People, when in extreme duress tend to see the familiar, regardless of how destructive that environment is. I got the impression that those with mental health issues sought out a familiar environment, often the environment that caused the mental health issues because it was at least "stable". Often, it didn't get worse, nor did it get any better, but it was MANAGEABLE. When manage to get such individuals in unfamiliar environments such as something safe and sane, something often goes "click" inside them and they abandon it because it's NOT familiar. Better to be IN the nightmare, than to find peace and wait for disaster to come, I suppose.

These days, while I don't have the heart to run the other way, I will try to learn if they want a way out. If they do, I test that resolve by opening a door, say, a friend that is a therapist, or a shelter, or even social services. I remind them that it's a one way path, once started, they have to see it through, and then see what they do. If they don't, I tell them how much I do care, but I can't remain and then leave without looking back.

It sounds heartless, but consider this. The most important thing I've done was plant a seed of hope. The door is still open for them for a positive, but labor intensive change.

My view is that as long as things remain tolerable, there will never be a chance for change, ever. Change is only possible when things are intolerable. As long as they can cope, there is no hope for them.

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to shootingstar67)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/13/2007 4:33:56 AM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Willowmoon

I am going to stop typing now as anything more i have to say on this topic will just be me getting angry.

Willow


Willow, you need to stop and seriously consider the potential partner in such a relationship. People, by nature seek out a challange of this kind. I've an ex with a mental illness, but the reason she became an ex was because she became convinced that I was seeking to abandon her and was asking her approval. NOTHING could change her mind on that point. I now have a daughter I haven't seen in four years, and a passive/agressive ex that I must 'manage' with great care to simply talk with my own daughter.

Is this something you would wish on another? I don't think so. No one really would. It takes a person of a certain level of power, wherewithal, intelligence and stamina to accept such a submissive. I had the latter two, but not the former two, and no matter how muche I loved her, and still do, without these four qualities in one person, and it's quite rare, such a pairing is almost garunteed to cause harm to both, not just one.

Do the mentally ill have a right to participate? Absolutely! Do the mentally ill have a right to inflict themselves on others who are not able to cope and manage to avoid just what you posted? Absolutely not.

We all want our submissives to be healthy and vital, but often that is not the case. We all do the best we can, out of love, honor and decency. But, as Doms, we have the right to say, "No, this is beyond my ability to cope." As much as you have a right to be happy, and to choose, so do we.

I don't say this out of malice, or reprisal, simply to remind you that we have our limits as well. The sensible Doms will always have the tools of love, compassion and integrity at the ready for any sub the begs for it, but we also must use our intelligence to know when we are overmatched by the challange and do our best to provide a soft landing for the subs we cannot help.

Try to understand, we are not superhuman, but we'll try to be. :) However, we have to know when we're in over our heads.

For the mentally ill, it's very difficult for them find someone strong enough and able enough to be able to face thier disabilities, and overcome them, but you have to keep in mind that the labors of a Dom is equally difficult, and often just as painful for them to admit defeat IF it comes to them.

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to Willowmoon)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/13/2007 5:33:10 AM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I hate to tell you this people, but most americans have some form of "mental illness" under the DSM.  A huge number of americans are estimated to suffer from untreated depression and according to a national  article (newsweek or one of the major news mags, reported a few studies, sorry I don't remember which) I read a few years ago, over 50% of the female population has been on some type of anti-depressant or mood stablizer for depression in the last decade.  Many mental illnesses are easily treatable and monitored. 

Good luck actually finding someone that's truly honest that doesn't have some form of mental illness or history of it.  I would suggest to you that those of you that would reject someone for merely having a "mental illness" aren't being all that honest with yourselves or don't understand how encompassing the term actually is.

In response to the OP's actual question, which isn't this ongoing conversation carried on here, if someone was truly self-destructive, I would have to look at why they were into d/s and/or bdsm.  If one truly desires to be treated badly ie: it really does feel bad for them to participate, I wouldn't want to be part of it personally.  However, to each their own.  I sure wouldn't discard a human being for depression unless it was severe enough they were a danger to themselves and didn't seek help.



Umm, half the female population? Allowing for the fact that most women see the doc more often than men, statistically, I'd still add an additional 25% to that. THEN, if all things being equal, most men are coping with untreated depression, or at least equally to women, that puts a total population of 225 people either being treated or not treated coping with depression. Folks, this is not an epidemic. It's catastrophic. Granted, personally, I'm coping with drepression ALL the time, but I see no need to treat a natural response to a considerable amount of stress. More often than not, depression is a natural response to conditions that cause stress, so why treat it? What's more, why are so many depressed? Usually it means that a basic need isn't being met. That many people can't possibly be depressed without an underlying fudemental issue. Perscribing drugs to treat depression is typically due to a chemical imbalance in the brain or body. So, are 'feel good drugs' being doled out because of some mass internal biological disorder? Corporate influence to boost profits?

Damn, this statistic is just astounding to put it lightly.

So many people so depressed and yet no one has identified a possible cause worth headlining news reports, government support or otherwise any general disemination of information? If these numbers were reported for something a virus or bacterial infection, the whole country would be turned upside down.

Just amazing. I bet I could write a book on this.

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/13/2007 5:54:05 AM   
osocurious


Posts: 676
Joined: 11/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDeAnnya

I like you osocurious
dear o dear MistressDeAnnya ... now we'll have to be questioning Your mental balance ... lol ...
*whispers*
sincere thanks by the way

respectfully
~ curious ~

(in reply to MistressDeAnnya)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/13/2007 9:04:28 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

...it is not a part of the make-up of natural submission.


Mist I disagree with this broad generalization.


So then to be clear, are you saying that you believe that in order to be submissive you must have a history of depression?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to shyinini)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Mentally Ill submissive - 11/13/2007 10:00:30 AM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shyinini

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

...it is not a part of the make-up of natural submission.


Mist I disagree with this broad generalization.
Who Does Depression Affect?



As you disagree with Mist then I assume that in your view I cannot be a submissive as I do not suffer from depression, nor do I suffer from a mental illness. When did it become necessary to suffer from depression to become a sub or slave?

(in reply to shyinini)
Profile   Post #: 60
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