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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 7:12:33 PM   
Shawn1066


Posts: 987
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk



6. While the gay community can make a genetic case for their choice, that's not so true for our lifestyle. Where the gay community can claim a lack of any real choice, it's not so easy for us. Society creates laws to control rampant violence and enforce equal rights. We can choose to obey or not, and our lifestyle clearly demonstrates that we've made our choice to the contrary, in-spite of it's limited scope. The fact that we chose to be contrary at all makes people nervous. As a society, we tend to see law as an all-or-nothing contract. Blurring the edges, as we all know, creates an environment of abuse that is difficult to prevent.



I find this interesting, because while there aren't any genetic links that I'm currently aware of, I cannot personally say I had or made any real choice in the matter of being attracted to the lifestyle.  The only choice I had to make was the choice between happiness and emptiness, so to speak.  I can certainly claim about a lack of any real choice, I dunno about anybody else. :-p

Also, I've been out of the closet to everybody who really matters for a few years now.  It was the best decision I ever made.


< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 11/11/2007 7:14:52 PM >

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 8:18:44 PM   
azropedntied


Posts: 1829
Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		deleted .....


< Message edited by azropedntied -- 11/11/2007 8:23:56 PM >

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 8:25:36 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry, but I personally see no reason to share what I do with anyone. I don't need any validation of my life and just as I would not need to hear about details of relationships of friends, family or strangers, I would not put forth mine, unless I was asking for advice.

And even then, I would not be sharing details of the lifestyle with those not in it.

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 8:29:58 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

They [gays and lesbians] have legal protection for their orientation


As a gay guy, I have to say "Let's not get carried away." There remain plenty of states where one can be fired just for being gay, and the federal nondiscrimination act, first introduced three long decades ago, has yet to clear the Senate or the President's desk.



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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 9:08:37 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

They [gays and lesbians] have legal protection for their orientation

As a gay guy, I have to say "Let's not get carried away." There remain plenty of states where one can be fired just for being gay, and the federal nondiscrimination act, first introduced three long decades ago, has yet to clear the Senate or the President's desk.


Right.  All the states with their own special jurisprudence that get to ignore federal legal precedent, and have their own special, extra-whacky history where Lawrence and Garner v. Texas didn't happen.  You know, like the State of Ignorance, and the State of Nonsense.

The only legal venue for sexual discrimination in the United States is in US military service.

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True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 9:16:49 PM   
FullfigRIMaam


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quote:

I don’t consider my self in the closet. I’m also just a private person and I don’t have a reason going up to everyone telling them the intimate details of my relationship with someone.
My sentiments exactly, plus I may be a bit in the closet about parts of this because I have a family I consider, respect, and don't want to lose.   M

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 9:19:20 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Lawrence was about sodomy laws, not employment.

On employment, I'll defer to law professor Dale Carpenter, writing in the Washington Blade about ENDA:

The restored version of ENDA prohibits employers from discriminating against employees on the basis of “actual or perceived sexual orientation,” which is defined to include homosexuality, heterosexuality or bisexuality.

In 31 states, covering about half of all gay Americans, there is no such job protection. Most of these states, in the South, Midwest and West, are unlikely to protect gay employees anytime soon.


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Faramir)
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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 9:43:48 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
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Status: offline 		I would have to agree that people who participate in BDSM-related activities seem to be much more entrenched within the closet than homosexuals.  Granted, there is still far too much discrimination facing the latter, however the gay community has really made a name for itself politically and has much more leverage than any BDSM group can claim. 

Homosexuality is "officially" (and I use this term very loosely) seen as either a personal choice, or as a genetic predisposition.  There is, and most likely will always be an ongoing debate about this, but the point is that homosexuality is no longer viewed as a disorder by rational-minded people.  Sadistic and masochistic behaviors are still seen as quite abnormal by a vast majority and although BDSM is losing the classification of being dysfunctional, there is still a belief held by many people that sadistic and masochistic activities... no matter how damned good it may feel..are just wrong. 

Additionally, D/s activities are also seen as being dysfunctional.. especially if the authority in the relationship is wholly retained by a male dominant figure.  I have no issue with feminists in their efforts to balance out wages and to level the corporate and political playing fields, however they have assisted in developing a social attitude that anything subjecting a woman to a man's will is on the verge of being abusive.  I may be wrong in my thoughts here, but I believe a dominant woman would be more readily accepted for her beliefs regarding D/s than a male dominant would be. (Maybe a thought for another thread)

Fortunately for us, BDSM is becoming more and more mainstream in the media.  People from BDSM and Leather groups have slowly become more organized and are fighting to protect how we choose to behave with consenting adults.  Universities are teaching more and more about BDSM and alternate lifestyles and the idea that these behaviors and attitudes should no longer be viewed as dysfunctional.  Even so, I still feel it is more difficult for someone to come out of the BDSM closet...

~Thorns

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 9:56:05 PM   
MsPleasure


Posts: 215
Joined: 1/1/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, I think this is more in the closet.  You hear about gay celebrities all of the time.  I've only heard of one celebrity talk openly about being involved in bdsm and that was sex therapist, Gloria Brame. 

(in reply to cyberchicdoll)
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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 10:04:36 PM   
hazenut


Posts: 26
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline 		I'm not gay, but I'm bisexual. I'm extremely open about that. If someone ask...I will tell. If I'm out with a girl...I'll kiss her.  When it comes to being a submissive, I don't think I could tell my closest friend.
It just makes this whole journey more of a challenge, but of course I have you great people to talk to about it :)

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 10:39:29 PM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Wonderful post scottjk.
 
I have never had the need to flaunt what I do in front of the vanilla world.
I wonder if those that feel they need to be "out", want public validation?


Thanks, Mia, I have my focused moments, but I'm never sure when! LOL

After reading the other posters, I have to point out that, aside from the useless sodomy laws, the gay community honestly don't have anything more mainstream preventing them from thier decision, any many attempts to do so tend to have an ugly fallout, take marriage for instance.

The BDSM community on the other hand has quite a few conventional laws that oppose our activities with very stiff penalties, regardless of consent, and this includes the invocation of federal law. I recall a seminar a few years ago where the speaker pointed out that consent is protected in only a few instances, such as sex in general at or above the age of majority. Even then it's considered shaky. There is an general consensus in the legal community that no one has the right to consent to any violence whatsoever, meaning that if it violates the law without the concept of consent factored in, it can be reasonable to assume that it will hold true WITH consent factored in. I was informed that this theoretical case hasn't been tested, as of yet, but I suspect that there are few willing to step up to the plate.

Any volunteers? :)

So, at the risk of sounding pedantic, being gay and losing your job is one thing, being a Dom or Domme and losing your freedom is quite another, don't you think? Or worse, being a sub and watching your Dom or Domme being prosecuted. As a Dom myself, I could never bring myself to do that to my sub, for the sake of advancing what? A cause?

To put an even finer point on it, I feel that as a community we'll have a lot farther to travel socially before we'll have a reasonable chance to test those legal waters and survive. There is far to much non-consentual abuse on a horrific level in the world for us to step out of the relative shadows and say, "This is what we do, but it's different. Trust us." It's best to gain ground a little bit at a time, give the education efforts a lot of time for it to sink in. I would hate to have to go underground even further, or destroy my gear to protect myself and any sub I'm with just because some one got a tad impatient. :)

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/11/2007 10:51:25 PM   
downkitty


Posts: 224
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline 		I remember this debate in my home state of Louisiana.  The consensus was that there are already laws on the books protecting gays (and other groups) from discrimination during hiring and employment.  Louisiana did not adopt the law because it was redundant and did not feel the need to make a new and seperate law protecting specifically homosexuals, then having to go and make a new law protecting specifically elderly, then make a new law protecting specifically handicapped.  The law on the books currently protected many groups (race, religion, sexual orientation, age, disability, and so on).

It is not my underastanding that there are 31 states out there where it is legal to discriminate against homosexuals regarding employment.  It is my understanding that those 31 states did not feel the need to enact another law about it, and choose to enforce the law that is already on the books.  Did I misunderstand? 

Respectfully,

Amy



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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 6:00:27 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		I started a group a while back to meet with like minded people. That was well before CM. It turns out that everyone in the group was in the closet. Everyone has their reason. Should we try to draw them out. Imo no. Everyone in the lifestyle deals with it in their own way.  

(in reply to downkitty)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 6:14:59 AM   
rc4otkVA


Posts: 52
Joined: 9/12/2005
Status: offline 		I'd say so. People are born gay or straight. The reasons for being into BDSM are varied and harder to understand.

(in reply to Shawn1066)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 9:28:19 AM   
cyberchicdoll


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/18/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you all of you for some wonderful and thought provoking replies.  I wasnt saying that the lifestyle was the same as being gay only that the thoughts about telling others and the whole movement had paralels with that community.  From the replies thus far i can see that everyone is individual and experiences diifferent as snowflakes each to their own and may we celebrate the differences. 
I find that it would be nice to have the choice to talk about what we do in this lifestyle without worrying of the consequences.  For me this posting has shown me that the lifestyle is now a subject in the public eye for all the wrong reasons.  I would defend my lifestyle choices to those that knock it but am still debating whether i would "come out " to the world in general.
Thank you again for your time to enter the debate, please keep watching and posting.
cyberchicdoll


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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 10:59:06 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		For the one who said that Im bisexual not gay. You are just a different type of gay.

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 11:30:24 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Lawrence was about sodomy laws, not employment.



Wrong--the Lawrence decision has nothing to with sodomy.  It's about 14th amendment pnuembra existence and extension.  It means the state has no purveiw over personal, private affairs like sexuiality.  It's the basis of the recent Hobbs vs. Pender County decision, which doesn't involve sodomy or homosexuality, but rather cohabitation in a heterosexual relationship:

quote:

  "The Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas stands for the proposition that the government has no business regulating relationships between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own home," said Jennifer Rudinger, executive director of the ACLU of North Carolina, which represented Hobbs. "North Carolina's cohabitation law is not only patently unconstitutional, but the idea that the government would criminalize people's choice to live together out of wedlock in this day and age defies logic and common sense."


It's not legal in the United States to discrimiate in employment based on sexuality or sexual prefernce outside the "special needs of the service" precedent. 

Homosexual rights advocates are trying to get a statement law passed as part of the culture wars.  I can see why ENDA is important as a symbolic statement for homosexuals, but it is just that: symbolic.  It has nothing to with actual jurisprudence in America.

It's like arguing that because there is not a statute in your state that explicitly protects red-haired women from giving blowjobs to men over 6', you can get fired for it.  Since 2003 US law is very clear: sexuality and sexual orientation are not a legal basis for discrimination.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 11:44:33 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Living in the UK and having lived in both rural and urban city areas, I have to say, I have never had come across any more or less discrimination or problems than any other 'minority'.  Darcy and I don't walk into areas and announce our orientations, but we do not hide it either.  I am quite happy at his feet in public, or equally on his arm.  I have never found 'coming out' a problem, but then I have never found a need to 'come out' - people make things worse for themselves the majority of the time because they 'act' as something is different or darker in their lives.  If people in BDSM circles view themselves as having a darker side, then what hope is there for people to not judge it as something 'bad'.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 11:54:16 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: liminalRapture

I believe the right-wing in the US may be looking to replace trashing gays and lesbians with trashing kinky folk because gays and lesbians are (rightful) losing their value as wedge political issues. 


....but can't quite bring themselves to do it as all the masochists are shouting..trash me , no trash me first, no I insist, please, I beg.......

(in reply to liminalRapture)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 11:55:32 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

For the one who said that Im bisexual not gay. You are just a different type of gay.


bi first, gay later......

(in reply to Dnomyar)
Profile   Post #: 40
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