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RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 12:11:06 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:



Should the lifestyle be coming out more than it is, the campaigns in the U.S.A are awesome.  Here in the U.K. the whole lifestyle is still very much underground. 


Will somebody let me out please, it's just far too uncomfortable being in three closets all at the same time...............

(in reply to cyberchicdoll)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 12:12:56 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rc4otkVA

I'd say so. People are born gay or straight. The reasons for being into BDSM are varied and harder to understand.


wooooooooooooooo hold on............

(in reply to rc4otkVA)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 12:20:23 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

[It's like arguing that because there is not a statute in your state that explicitly protects red-haired women from giving blowjobs to men over 6', you can get fired for it. 


Is THAT why I got laid off last week? I was wondering since there was no apparent reason other than a corporate takeover. LOL

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 6:46:42 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

the Lawrence decision has nothing to with sodomy. 


You can read the Lawrence v. Texas opinion at the Cornell University Law School site.

Here is an excerpt from the setting forth of facts:

In Houston, Texas, officers of the Harris County Police Department were dispatched to a private residence in response to a reported weapons disturbance. They entered an apartment where one of the petitioners, John Geddes Lawrence, resided. The right of the police to enter does not seem to have been questioned. The officers observed Lawrence and another man, Tyron Garner, engaging in a sexual act. The two petitioners were arrested, held in custody over night, and charged and convicted before a Justice of the Peace.

The complaints described their crime as “deviate sexual intercourse, namely anal sex, with a member of the same sex (man).” App. to Pet. for Cert. 127a, 139a. The applicable state law is Tex. Penal Code Ann. §21.06(a) (2003). It provides: “A person commits an offense if he engages in deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex.”

Emphasis added. Anal sex is often referred to as sodomy.

For those who don't feel like trudging through a whole Supreme Court decision, a CNN story gives the key points. Here's a paragraph from the article:

Legal analysts said the ruling enshrines for the first time a broad constitutional right to sexual privacy, and its impact would reach beyond Texas and 12 other states with similar sodomy laws applied against the gay and lesbian community, and into mainstream America.


Emphasis added.

quote:

It's not legal in the United States to discrimiate in employment based on sexuality or sexual prefernce outside the "special needs of the service" precedent.


Let's see . . . On the one hand, I have a law professor who has studied and written about gay-lesbian legal issues for years, who says that there are 31 states in which it's legal to fire someone for being gay. On the other hand, I have some dude on the Internet, a self-appointed expert on everything under the sun and given to pontificating about a case he shows little sign of having read, saying otherwise.

I think I'll stick with my law professor.



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 11/12/2007 7:02:46 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 7:01:56 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

It is not my underastanding that there are 31 states out there where it is legal to discriminate against homosexuals regarding employment.  It is my understanding that those 31 states did not feel the need to enact another law about it, and choose to enforce the law that is already on the books.  Did I misunderstand? 


My understanding, based on Professor Carpenter's Blade column and an ACLU report about gay-lesbian employment issues is that there are indeed 30 (ACLU) or 31 (Carpenter) states where is is legal to fire someone for being gay. I don't know how often this happens, though.

That said, I should emphasize that I'm not saying gay folks have a harder time than BDSM folk. I don't believe in competitive victimhood, and I agree with the bulk of the posts that it's way easier to be out as a gay person than as a kinkster. I'm simply saying that the legal situation for gays and lesbians as not as rosy as some posts made it sound.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to downkitty)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 7:49:07 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Faramir, dicta doesn't control.  Lawerence and Garner v. Texas is a very limited precedent about private activity within a private home and laws prohibiting such activity.  It says nothing at all about homosexuality in general or employment practices. It is a case about due process and privacy in America.  It's been argued to extend to gay marriages numerous times unsucsessfully.  Homosexuality remains an unprotected class in the United States and I have a hard time believing that will change anytime in the near future.

To answer the OP, I'm not out about either (although I'm bisexual and female, not sure that equates to being gay) and I personally have no need to be.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 11/12/2007 7:59:56 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 8:20:48 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Faramir, dicta doesn't control.  Lawerence and Garner v. Texas is a very limited precedent about private activity within a private home and laws prohibiting such activity.  It says nothing at all about homosexuality in general or employment practices.


If it's a very limited decision without applicability to employment practices, why is it cited as the basis for the decision in Hobbs vs Pender County, a case specifically about state employment practices?

I certainly agree homosexuals aren't a protected class--rather, they are included in the general class of persons, protected by a now much broader pnuembra.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 8:26:43 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Are you citing a state court decision about a heterosexual relationship that only applies to a limited employment practice as some basis for suggesting homosexuality somehow applies?  Lawyers and judges cite cases all the time, that doesn't make any precedence whatsoever and certainly not national precedence.

The Lawerence decision if read in its entirety makes it very clear the Supremes are steering clear of the homosexuality issue.  Hell when does this current Court ever not avoid ongoing debates?

Edited to add: while this debate is interesting, it has nothing to do with the OP's questions, so let's let it rest, shall we?

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 11/12/2007 8:29:31 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 8:36:31 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Particularly guys, who.. I mean, do you normally think of guys as rumor mills and to be uptight about this sort of thing?


Yes. Particularly if they were anywhere in the same age group.
Some call me cynical, others call me observant.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/12/2007 8:42:11 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

They have legal protection for their orientation, and in most cases we have legal adversity, and the level of social opprobrium is way lower for them.


The interesting question, of course, is how the LGBT community made headway on their end. I've ranted about that in the past, and I don't see that anything will happen any time soon, except that the S&M crowd may get their ReviseF65 project done at some point. I'd note that there's probably more BDSM, kink and fetish people out there than there are LGBT people, if you include the overlap between the groups. It's basically "variant normal" sexuality.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 6:59:34 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Are you citing a state court decision about a heterosexual relationship that only applies to a limited employment practice as some basis for suggesting homosexuality somehow applies?  Lawyers and judges cite cases all the time, that doesn't make any precedence whatsoever and certainly not national precedence.

The Lawerence decision if read in its entirety makes it very clear the Supremes are steering clear of the homosexuality issue.  Hell when does this current Court ever not avoid ongoing debates?

Edited to add: while this debate is interesting, it has nothing to do with the OP's questions, so let's let it rest, shall we?


It's at the heart of the OP's question--that's why I'm talking about it.  The question is whether homosexuality is more socially oprobrious than BDSM--who is further in the closet? 

My claim is that homosexuality is much more accpetable than BDSM intimacy, because (homo)sexuality is still sexuality--BDSM, in the SM and BD parts, is not merely or solely sexual/inimate in the way our society defines such.  Much of what we do is explicitly illegal, and other parts implicitly illegal, because they are prima facie indistinguishable from violence--the consent which we see as the grounds for seeing this conduct as acceptable, relational and ethical is generally not recognized.

Homosexuality however, is implicitly protected conduct because of he 14th amendment.  You are right that the decision is not about homosexuality--you are clearly a better critical thinker than our "anal sex" friend who confuses a complaint with an opinion.  the decision is about how far the state can intrude in private lives, and extends the penumbra of rights we enjoy.  Because of this, whether there is a law or not saying "You can't fire anyone for sucking dick" or "You can't fire someone for shacking up with someone," the fact is, outside the one exception of the US military, in America, you can't fire someone for sucking dick, or liking the same sex, or shacking up with someone else.  The Hobbs vs Pender decision doesn't set a precedent--it recognizes the Garner precednet.  See, the SCOTUS makes a decision, like "Laws about private sexual matters like sodomy violate the 14th amendment," and then lower courts like the state court, go "Oh, so that sets a precedent I apply here."

Homosexuality, outside of military service, can't be the locus of state action, and so what our brilliant,  "I'LL GO WITH WHAT DER LAW PERFERFESSOR WROTE!"said is intensely, mind-numbingly wrong. 

We have more work to do in homosexual rights, but the Garner decision made a huge stride forward for all people, gay, straight and in between, by taking the state out of the bedroom.  You can't be fired for having hot, man on man sex.

But you can be arrested, fired and put in jail for tying up and whipping your leather boi.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 7:32:07 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		From the ACLU report Working in the Shadows: Ending Employment Discrimination for LGBT Americans (September 2007):

As documented in the personal stories at the end of this report, LGBT employees are harassed, fired, not hired, and passed over for advancement without regard to their merit.

A 2007 report of over 50 studies compiled by the Williams Institute indicates that when surveyed, 16% to 68% of LGBT people reported experiences employment discrimination.

. . . And many heterosexual coworkers reported witnessing sexual orientation discrimination in the workplace.

In another 2007 nationwide survey, 28% of LGBT workers reported that they have experienced discrimination or unfair treatment in the workplace. One in four said they experience it on a weekly basis.





_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 8:18:37 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		From Lambda Legal's employment-issues page:

[T]o this day, workplace concerns remain the number one topic for our Help Desk callers. In Lambda Legal's 2005 Workplace Fairness Survey, 39 percent of gay and lesbian workers reported experiencing some form of harassment or discrimination in the past five years.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 8:50:45 PM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		As I probably should have boiled down in a previous posting...

The law defines how far we can come out of the 'closet'. And the test, as each effective law must have, is violence.

Fortunately, cities like Seattle and the surrounding area have already begun training law enforcement and medical professionals in ER rooms to identify what is and isn't domestic violence and the like to avoid jailing D/s couples for domestic violence violations. There aren't any laws that protect such couples and groups, but the cities and county have made minor procedural changes out of respect for the lifestyle. Mistakes happen, but most people understand. But again, the lifestyle is at the mercy of the personal opinion of the individual that witnesses the result of consensual play.

One point I don't think I made, and it's critical. Not only is consent not recognized in regards to violence, but a third party can file criminal charges. For instance, I play with a girl, and her body is covered with welts, a few spots of blood, we had a good time. Her sister sees the welts one morning and demands an explanation and gets it. Next thing I know, I'm dragged out in cuffs (going insane I might add. I don't confine well.) with a charge of assault and battery for every single welt I made, and a laundry list of charges relating to anything else I've done. Oh, and a billion dollar civil suit tossed on top like a cherry.

Yes! Some one other than the 'victim' can file charges! That can be done in civil courts too.

No thanks! My closet is comfy. :)


Our butts are still hanging out there, folks. :)

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 8:58:03 PM   
missteacher


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		Um...ok...not very insightful comment on my part...but when was the last time you saw a 6th grade teacher proclaiming her BDSM tendencies?  I doubt I'd lose my job for being a lesbian.  I don't think my principal would be to happy to see me walking behind my Master on a leash in public.  So yeah...certain places we find ourselves in regards to the society around us demand us to the stay in the closet.  I love my job.  I love my lifestyle.  Yes, I'd love to honor my Master more publically, but keeping the job has to stay a priority.

_____________________________

Miss Teacher

(in reply to scottjk)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 9:02:35 PM   
missteacher


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/22/2007
Status: offline 		oops...He wouldn't be too happy...Gosh, and I call myself a teacher!

(in reply to missteacher)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 10:00:46 PM   
downkitty


Posts: 224
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

From Lambda Legal's employment-issues page:

[T]o this day, workplace concerns remain the number one topic for our Help Desk callers. In Lambda Legal's 2005 Workplace Fairness Survey, 39 percent of gay and lesbian workers reported experiencing some form of harassment or discrimination in the past five years.


Do you have any information on the number of 'people' who admitted to being harassed?  Is the number of homosexual people being harrassed higher, lower, even with the number of people in general being harassed?  The last sexual harassement training I attended cited something like 40% of women admitting to being harassed in some form or another.  I've never really researched this, so I admit I may not be in the loop, but I was under the impression that people in general are treated like shit in the workforce. I was not aware that is was significantly different if you were homosexual rather than a woman, or black or Mormon or 'insert minority of your choice here.'

My other question would be, what happens when they file a complaint?  Are their concerns being addressed?  People will be bullies if allowed, or at least a percentage will be.  Do corporations back up their harassement laws?  I really don't know so am genuinely asking.  I havent worked for a large corporation in a long time.  I do know that as a full-charge bookkeeper, one of my duties is cleaning toilets.  It doesn't bother me, but I know many women in my field that would condsider that discrimination.

Respectfully,

Amy



_____________________________

"What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls a butterfly." R. Bach in "Illusions"

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/13/2007 11:08:16 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not in the closet.  I'm in the outhouse... and if you know what's good for you you'll leave that door shut!

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to downkitty)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/14/2007 5:07:13 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: scottjk

As I probably should have boiled down in a previous posting...

The law defines how far we can come out of the 'closet'. And the test, as each effective law must have, is violence.



That's the biggest issue, but it goes even beyond that.  Many states (NC for example) have laws that prohibit restraint, or that move restraint or assault to higher offenses if connected with "sexual servitude" or are committed by someone "in a relationship with."  The statutes don't have a provision for intent when it comes to prohibited activities, so while the restraint statute mentions "against their will," there is no stipulation of will when the restraint is for a prohibited activity, i.e. assault, sexual servitude.

You made a good point that outside of the law, local communities are making small efforts to accomodate their understanding of the relationships--a Kantian sensus communis judgement.  But that localized judgement in a few places doesn't obviate the legal danger BDSMers face.

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

(in reply to scottjk)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Are lifestyle people more in the closet than the ga... - 11/14/2007 8:52:48 AM   
MystressDream


Posts: 345
Joined: 7/11/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoulPiercer

There probably are more "lifestylers" in the closet than there are (proportionately) in the gay community.

While it may not be popular among "civilized" society to be gay .. it's rare to find communities where it is actually illegal and the law is enforced.

However, a great many activities that we in the BDSM community participate in are illegal in many parts of the worlds and in many cases if caught, the laws are enforced.



Due to something that just happened yesterday, I have to jump into this thread.  My news won't matter to the vast majority of you, but maybe, just maybe, a few will care and extend some help.
 
We have a BDSM club here in Denver. (actually located in Commerce City just north of Denver) 
 
The owners of this club decided before they bought the building and remodeled it and opened a BDSM club, that they would make it completely legal.  Legally licensed, city approved.
 
Well... They went to the city council and all other governing authorities and were completely upfront about what they were wanting to open.  They were told what type of license they would need and that the building was in an appropriate zone.  They purchased the building, and sunk a TON of cash into it. 
 
At the time they were opening, there were even laws on the books against flogging... and bar rules had to apply, such as nipples covered, no genital nudity, etc.
 
These people took on the fight to get BDSM approved and took on the city council over one activity at a time.  They got approval for nudity, all activities that we enjoy except fire play and sexual penetration.  (The fire marshall just can't wrap his mind around us setting people on fire... <grin>)
 
Ok... to try to shorten this... The owners of the Enclave opened the doors and started doing business.  Then, when it was time for the city to issue a permanent license instead of the provisional one, they decided they didn't like what was going on.  The court battles have been going on now for over 4 years.  The city is doing it's damnedest to run the owners out of money so the doors will close. 
 
Yesterday, the Colorado State Supreme Court decided to hear the case.... as appealed by Commerce City.  The Enclave had won appeals requiring the permanent license be issued.  The city just won't give up the fight.
 
I am not saying this will be the only completely legally licensed BDSM club in the country because I don't know that for a fact.  I have searched and can't find another one, but, one may be out there.  The vast majority of the clubs fly under the radar and operate as "private membership social clubs" or "non-profit membership clubs".... both of which can be shut down for allowing sexual activities.  These clubs have been closed down left and right all across the country.  Most of the clubs run under the radar, and have a life expectancy of about three years before the town or city they are in shut them down.  Not coincidentally, this usually occurs when elections are gearing up.  The exceptions to that example are located in places like NYC, SF and LA.
 
If anyone out there gives a damn about this, they could desperately use some help.  NCSF is aware of the fight, but won't get involved until the Supreme Court makes a decision.  ACLU is too busy with other projects, like defending the KKK.  The Enclave, and it's owners, are going down due to the weight and drain of legal fees and harrassment.  Their fight for all of us to have a legal and safe place to gather and enjoy what we do has drained them of all resources and they can't continue the fight.  It looks like the city will win.  Many here in Denver have contributed, but it's just not enough.
 
If you want to contribute to this fight, or read about it, please go to enclavewest dot com for more information.
 
Please... If there are any people out there who can help this fight, please do so.  This could impact BDSM clubs across the country.
 
Also, please feel free to contact me off MB if you want more information.  But, that website has everything there.  It is a beautiful club, and we just hate to see it go down to the courts, and to watch as our lifestyle and activities are once again stomped out by government authorities.

_____________________________

Knowledge and experience are wonderful things to share. When we stop asking questions, we might as well "hang it up".

check out: www.enclaveproductions.com
www.enclavewest.com

(in reply to SoulPiercer)
Profile   Post #: 60
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