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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:16:28 PM   
Raechard


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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		What is your idea of ‘irrefutable evidence?’
People are sentenced to death not on how strong the case is but how bad the crime is. A jury convicts, a judge passes sentence, therefore how strong the evidence is has no bearing on the punishment. As far as I know.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 11/19/2007 6:17:10 PM >

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:27:07 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		So you're saying let's execute 14,000 innocent people in order to save 60 lives.

How does that make any sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please follow along with the statistics below

The FBI says there were 17,034 murders in The United States in 2006… the average time served for murder before parole is between 10 and 17 years. Just as a guess I would say it is safe to say at least 10,000 of those will live to be paroled.

The FBI says .2 percent will be convicted of murder again… if my math is right that is about 200 more murder victims.

Now if those murders were executed 200 lives would be saved… so to say capital punishment has no effect on murder rates is wrong....I just hope one of those 200 aren’t someone you love. 

Lets be conservative and say only 3000 murders had irrefutable evidence… that would still save 60 lives… not insignificant considering that is only ONE years worth of murders.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:31:01 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Raechard

There are many murders witnessed by multiple creditable witnesses. Many are caught red handed with bodies in the trunk…  non-coerced confessions with supporting evidence. Murders caught on security cameras…Just a guess again but I would say a good portion of murders are of this type.
The above would be irrefutable to me anyway…I am all for stringent rules on the death penalty
Butch

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:31:27 PM   
ItalianSMistress


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Status: offline 		kdsub, Perhaps you should reread My note, I did NOT say that capital punishment does not have an effect on the murder rate, I said it does not deter murderers.  There is a big difference in those two statements. 

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:34:16 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

So you're saying let's execute 14,000 innocent people in order to save 60 lives.

How does that make any sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please follow along with the statistics below

The FBI says there were 17,034 murders in The United States in 2006… the average time served for murder before parole is between 10 and 17 years. Just as a guess I would say it is safe to say at least 10,000 of those will live to be paroled.

The FBI says .2 percent will be convicted of murder again… if my math is right that is about 200 more murder victims.

Now if those murders were executed 200 lives would be saved… so to say capital punishment has no effect on murder rates is wrong....I just hope one of those 200 aren’t someone you love. 

Lets be conservative and say only 3000 murders had irrefutable evidence… that would still save 60 lives… not insignificant considering that is only ONE years worth of murders.



I'm not sure I understand you... are you saying that of the 17000 plus convicted murderers  last year 14000 were innocent?

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:35:57 PM   
BruisedHick


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Status: offline 		I think she's saying only execute with irrefutable evidence.

Still, let's think about the amount of irrefutable evidence that turns out to be refutable as technology gets better.

Next, let's define irrefutable.

And then, let's look at the simple fact that crime generally goes up as the death penalty is introduced.  Why?  It could be effects of the same cause, causes of an effect, or actually linked, but at the end of the day, it isn't effective.

So it's not rational.  Making it irrational.  And people expect the whole nation to share their irrationality????????

Go figure.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:37:15 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Maam I may have misunderstood  your post... if so I am sorry...but your first sentence says..."The death penalty has never and will never stop people from committing murder"
 
I say it will stop that .2 percent per year...because they will be dead

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/19/2007 6:38:50 PM >

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 6:54:30 PM   
ItalianSMistress


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Status: offline 		That is correct what I said, with the same meaning as the question first posed.  Is the death penalty a deterrent, no not at all.  It may stop them physically, once they have already been killed, but will not deter, or that is, discourage someone from committing a murder. Murders will never stop just because there is a death penalty.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 7:04:50 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"The truth is, crime has always been signficantly higher in states who enforce the death penalty, period."

There may be a reason for that, that crime is high. Statisticians do not reveal the finer points. Societies with high incarceration rates have high levels of sociopathy and recidivism. They also tend to have a copious number of dissidents.

They also have laws that are selectrively enforced. Sound familiar ?

"People are sentenced to death not on how strong the case is but how bad the crime is. A jury convicts, a judge passes sentence, therefore how strong the evidence is has no bearing on the punishment. As far as I know. "

I wish. The process is flawed. They say on the news "next is the punishment phase" as if the person were already convicted. They show pictures that show the victim in their best light, look how beautiful she was. Tell you her prospects of being a model or an actress. Such a wonderful life was wiped out.As if to infer some fatass butt-ugly bitch has less of a right to life. That is simply not true.

Bit they invoke a sense in the jury "We have to do something". And they do it even when they have the wrong guy, even when they know it. They simply do not care.All they care about is their conviction rate.

T

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 7:40:03 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Just don’t start comparing Great Briton and Canada with the US

On the World stage… Great Briton has more violent crime per capita than the United States… Do they have a death penalty?

Canada has fewer murders but more crime than the United States… Do they have a death penalty?

The United States has had a steady decrease in all crime including murder since 1990…Canada and Great Briton have had murder increase over the same period.
Maybe they should consider the death penalty.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 8:45:44 PM   
ItalianSMistress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LE, that "Night Stalker" guy is guilty beyond any shadow of guilt.
He killid a whole bunch of people in many different incidents and the fucker is still alive after 15? years?
WTF are they waiting for?


I just wanted to point out that the quote in My signature is from "that Night Stalker guy"  His name is Richard Ramirez
 
How ironic,,,,,

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 8:57:21 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinksugarsub

It actually costs considerably more to execute a person than it would to incarcerate them for life.
 
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108
 
pinksugarsub


Look. the Dealth Penalty is not meant to deter murder. If you're driven to the point the kill, then you're going to kill or do your best at trying. The Death Penalty is simply a measure of punishment that fits the crime. However, the exicution of a murderer will ensure that he or she shall never kill again.

As for the cost of an exicution. The cost factor is a choice made by society. Medical professionals, staff, expensive drugs, corner, etc... Yeah, that shit adds up to some big bucks. However, let's not forget how cheap and effective  22 slugs, axes, and ropes are. Also, I'm sure we can find more than a few people who will pull a trigger for free.

Cost is not an issue nor considerating for ending the Death Penalty. We can kill people as cheaply as we want with minium time, effort, and resources.   

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 9:19:49 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

I just wanted to point out that the quote in My signature is from "that Night Stalker guy"  His name is Richard Ramirez
 
How ironic,,,,,


He shouldn't be quoted.  We shouldn't have to be subjected to the thoughts of these wastes of humanity.  They shouldn't be giving interviews or writing books.  If they are not going to kill them, then they should build a gulag where they go to never be heard from again.  Maybe on one of the many deserted islands the United States owns.  You know, one where they used to test nuclear weapons.  Then and only then will I agree with getting rid of the death penalty for people like this.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 10:29:04 PM   
brightspot


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No!
Also it's tradgically unthinkable, how many are waiting to or have been put to death who are totally innocent .
 
Missy.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 10:33:09 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You said it yourself!  17,000 murder cases minus 3,000 cases with irrefutable evidence is 14,000 people wrongfully executed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

So you're saying let's execute 14,000 innocent people in order to save 60 lives.

How does that make any sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please follow along with the statistics below

The FBI says there were 17,034 murders in The United States in 2006… the average time served for murder before parole is between 10 and 17 years. Just as a guess I would say it is safe to say at least 10,000 of those will live to be paroled.

The FBI says .2 percent will be convicted of murder again… if my math is right that is about 200 more murder victims.

Now if those murders were executed 200 lives would be saved… so to say capital punishment has no effect on murder rates is wrong....I just hope one of those 200 aren’t someone you love. 

Lets be conservative and say only 3000 murders had irrefutable evidence… that would still save 60 lives… not insignificant considering that is only ONE years worth of murders.



I'm not sure I understand you... are you saying that of the 17000 plus convicted murderers  last year 14000 were innocent?

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/19/2007 10:45:51 PM   
pinkme2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

You said it yourself!  17,000 murder cases minus 3,000 cases with irrefutable evidence is 14,000 people wrongfully executed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

So you're saying let's execute 14,000 innocent people in order to save 60 lives.

How does that make any sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Please follow along with the statistics below

The FBI says there were 17,034 murders in The United States in 2006… the average time served for murder before parole is between 10 and 17 years. Just as a guess I would say it is safe to say at least 10,000 of those will live to be paroled.

The FBI says .2 percent will be convicted of murder again… if my math is right that is about 200 more murder victims.

Now if those murders were executed 200 lives would be saved… so to say capital punishment has no effect on murder rates is wrong....I just hope one of those 200 aren’t someone you love. 

Lets be conservative and say only 3000 murders had irrefutable evidence… that would still save 60 lives… not insignificant considering that is only ONE years worth of murders.



I'm not sure I understand you... are you saying that of the 17000 plus convicted murderers  last year 14000 were innocent?


Wow... I'm amazed at how poorly you understood her. 

She said if you only executed those that were convicted with irrefuteable evidence (and she low balled that at 3000 murderers), then you'd save 60 people.

She never said to execute those 14K or that they were even innocent.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 12:22:21 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just don’t start comparing Great Briton and Canada with the US

On the World stage… Great Briton has more violent crime per capita than the United States… Do they have a death penalty?



'Not true.

England and Wales (crime stats for Scotland and Northern Ireland, i.e. the other constituent parts of Britain, are reported separately) have higher rates of robbery and car theft.

The United States has higher rates of domestic violence, rape and murder (per capita).

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 1:29:18 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		Yeah yeah yeah.  Look, we all agree that executing innocent people is a bad idea.  So tell me: how do you figure out which are the 3,000 cases with ironclad evidence, and which the 14,000 cases with questionable evidence?  That's like saying you have the secret to winning in the stock market: buy low and sell high!

I agree that there are 17,000 murderers out there, and that punishing them would make the world a better place, but I have grave doubts that our system correctly identifies them.  In fact, I'm damn well convinced that getting the RIGHT motherfucker isn't always the D.A.'s top priority.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkme2

Wow... I'm amazed at how poorly you understood her. 

She said if you only executed those that were convicted with irrefuteable evidence (and she low balled that at 3000 murderers), then you'd save 60 people.

She never said to execute those 14K or that they were even innocent.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 3:17:36 AM   
InkedMaster


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Status: offline 		The death penalty may not deter other murders, but it sure makes me feel a whole lot better!

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 4:04:31 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InkedMaster

The death penalty may not deter other murders, but it sure makes me feel a whole lot better!


Which is entirely the point...er...unless you are the innocent accused being fried.

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