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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 8:33:09 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but it is not everyones opinion, thank God, and those of us that enjoy reading about these people can.  And if no one ever interviewed these people or anything, how would anyone ever learn anything about what makes this happen?


I don't care what makes this happen.  There is no reason.  Lots of people had similar childhoods to serial killers, and most of them do not go out and do things like this.  Serial killers, rapists, and violent sex offenders are anomolies.  They are viruses among the human race, and they should be eliminated.  Richard Ramirez has been allowed to get married and have a grand ol' time at the expense of decent people.  He has been doing it now for 20 years.  I saw enough of him during his trial when he held up his hand and yelled, "Hail Satan!"  Well that may be cute to some, but I find it disgusting considering what he was being tried for.  If he loves Satan so much, than we should do him a favor and send him to meet him.  These men are not smart, and they are not admirable.  They are selfish low lifes, and I don't care about their opinion and neither should anyone else. 

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 9:48:04 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Low REPORTED crime rate.  I've been to several repressive countries with low reported crime rates, and the actual crime rate, if anyone could ever calculate it, would have been out of this world.  I'm pretty sure that China has the highest execution rate in the world, and it must also rank very high globally as far as crime is concerned.  Crime in the East Bloc was always absurdly underreported too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Visit Saudi or the UAE and you'll see that a no tolerance policy generates a relatively low crime rate.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/21/2007 2:04:38 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Politesub53

I am all for strict rules on when to apply the death penalty…but do you agree there are some murders where there is no doubt of guilt?

We have all seen security cameras where a robber pulls a gun and shoots and kills a store clerk… There are murders where you know for sure who is guilty and the circumstances… those people I believe should be executed.

Butch


i think the death penalty would be more of a deterrant if the executions were televised.  Watching another career criminal cry, twist and turn and soil himself when Ol' Sparky doesn't get the job done with the first jolt might just make the robber think twice about adding murder to his crime.  Suddenly being a gangster wouldn't seem so cool. 

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/21/2007 7:39:50 AM   
ItalianSMistress


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but it is not everyones opinion, thank God, and those of us that enjoy reading about these people can.  And if no one ever interviewed these people or anything, how would anyone ever learn anything about what makes this happen?


I don't care what makes this happen.  There is no reason.  Lots of people had similar childhoods to serial killers, and most of them do not go out and do things like this.  Serial killers, rapists, and violent sex offenders are anomolies.  They are viruses among the human race, and they should be eliminated.  Richard Ramirez has been allowed to get married and have a grand ol' time at the expense of decent people.  He has been doing it now for 20 years.  I saw enough of him during his trial when he held up his hand and yelled, "Hail Satan!"  Well that may be cute to some, but I find it disgusting considering what he was being tried for.  If he loves Satan so much, than we should do him a favor and send him to meet him.  These men are not smart, and they are not admirable.  They are selfish low lifes, and I don't care about their opinion and neither should anyone else. 


That first part is exactly My point, lots of people have horride childhoods and do not end up being murders, so what is the difference? What makes these people snap and others not?  I dont think anyone finds what Ramirez did "cute".  Lots of these men have above average IQs and are very smart.  But even with that, there was something in them broken.  I think you might feel differently if it was your mother or brother or someone you loved that had this lack of filter that keeps most of us in check. 

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/21/2007 8:27:43 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		This veers dangerously close to the old Nietzschian (spelling?) Superman theory, that some among us were destined to dodge such petty restrictions as laws, because they were inherently "better" than others...But again, how do we choose which ones "get" to be Nietzschian Supermen, and which are condemned to follow the laws like "normal" folk?
If law is to mean anything, it must have consequences, preferably CONSISTENT consequences! i.e., if you kill or otherwise violate another's life, you should give up your rights as human...Become a test-animal, perhaps, or a beast-of-burden--or an involuntary organ-donor. This might be a better deterrent than simple death...Be FORCED to help, in some capacity, the very society you sought to undermine!
And as a side-note, death doesn't have to be expensive: A gun legally purchased is $350 (Plus tax), and ammo can be bought very cheaply, if death is all you want to inflict, rather than causing that animal to suffer the way it made its victims suffer!

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/21/2007 10:45:34 AM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		I was in the USSR several times (5) before communism fell there, and it was incredibly safe.

On another note, Ann Rule reported that it would have cost about 500k to incarcerate Ted Bundy for the rest of his life, but that it cost the state of Florida over four (4) MILLION dollars to execute him.

Of course Ted Bundy is not your typical murderer, but interestingly when he escaped from a Colorado jail during his trial there, he immediately set out for FLORIDA, which back then was like Texas is now, the execution capital of the USA.

18 Days after his Colorado escape, he went on a one-night murder spree in Tallahassee and he killed two more women in the weeks thereafter.

Six weeks after his escape, Florida officials caught and charged him with theft and fraud charges, not even knowing who he was. When they realized he was Ted Bundy, they began to investigate him for the recent murders committed there.

He was convicted of three counts of murder and sentenced to death twice in two different trials in 1980. He forwent any opp't to plea bargain, in which he might have traded out of the death penalty for a life sentence. He was executed in 1989 by the electric chair. Only on the eve of his execution did he ever begin to admit his crimes and disavow his innocence. .

His case to me illustrates the general nature of the death penalty in the USA. It is expensive to administer, and its main focus is retribution, not deterrence.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/21/2007 10:52:19 AM >

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/21/2007 2:43:59 PM   
Rushemery


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Status: offline 		well the person who murdered wont do it again unless hes related to chucky

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/22/2007 2:35:02 AM   
eyesopened


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Status: offline 		Maybe a cheaper way to handle the problem would be to stop putting child killers/rapists and other mass murderers in prison segregation and just dump them in the general prison population?

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/22/2007 7:28:08 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Hmm, unofficial punishment...Don't you think that would be "too effective"?

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/22/2007 4:15:25 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

This veers dangerously close to the old Nietzschian (spelling?) Superman theory,



It's "overman", which is an entirely different concept.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

that some among us were destined to dodge such petty restrictions as laws, because they were inherently "better" than others...



Wrong. Nietzsche was an egalitarian; he believed that we all have the power to overcome Christian morality, and that Christian morals had rendered Europeans weak. He yearned for early European societies, i.e. pre-Christian.

And he hated Wagner's anti-semitic, nationalist bollocks; in fact, he renounced his German citizenship.

Nietzsche believed in the individual and despised the kind of nationalism to which you aspire; he hated all group conformity, whether that be religion, nationalism etc, and he would say that you have been weakened by the idea of the great nation: he believed in the idea of the great individual.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 11/22/2007 5:06:46 PM >

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/22/2007 5:05:12 PM   
Sinergy


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Richard Ramirez' quote is interesting, although I imagine it is a case where he is projecting his own intellectualization of the emotional void in his mind.

Serial killers tend to do what they do in order to try to gain some abstract connection or understanding to the emotional life of other people, and only can by causing pain, fear, or death.

Sinergy

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/22/2007 5:08:14 PM   
Sinergy


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On a related note, most serial killers simply see being put to death as another item on their to-do list.

The threat of a death penalty would not deter the barrel guy or the pig farmer or the night stalker or the son of sam from killing.  Their psychology is a lot more bizarre and lacking in human morals.

Rational people who could be deterred from killing people because they might be put to death do not kill people in the first place.

Sinergy



_____________________________

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/23/2007 2:14:15 PM   
beeble


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quote:

Politesub53 wrote: We have the absurd situation in the UK where terrorists who come here to kill, cant be returned to their own country if there is a chance they will be sentenced to death.

That's nothing more than a consistent application of the principle that killing people is wrong.  It's wrong for the terrorists to do it, it's wrong for us to do it and it's wrong for us to send them somewhere where somebody else will do it.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/23/2007 2:19:19 PM   
beeble


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quote:

NorthernGent wrote: Visit Saudi or the UAE and you'll see that a no tolerance policy generates a relatively low crime rate.

Do you have stats on the crime rate in Saudi Arabia and the UAE that you can quote?  Do you have any evidence of a causal relationship between judicial policy and the crime rate?

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/23/2007 2:25:38 PM   
laurell3


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I always ponder studies that suggest one way or the other.  Is there a questionnaire for people that actually have intended to act on the impulse to murder someone and changed their mind.  Do you honestly think such people are being questioned to come up with the studies that suggest the death penalty is or is not a deterrent?   Most homicides are done in a impulsive, spur of the moment fashion.  I highly doubt these people think about the death penalty or much of anything else or than rage or whatever emotion is consuming them.

Applying common sense logic of if you kill you will die to people that lack reason is nonsensical.  The death penalty exists because it protects the majority's sensabilities and provides comfort for the shock of violent and reprehensible actions.  To suggest it's cheaper is silly, the appeals and attorney's/judges/staff salaries alone for this absolute paperchase far exceeds the cost of life imprisonment.  To suggest it sends some message to those who have no ability to hear such messages, is equally inane.  These are just reasons given to avoid saying it makes the majority feel safe even though it may or may not feel right for many.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/23/2007 2:42:16 PM   
beeble


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Status: offline 		Surveys tend to show that detection rate (i.e., the probability of getting caught and prosecuted) is much more of a deterrent than severity of sentencing.

``When Lord Taylor, as Lord Chief Justice, was arguing against the introduction of mandatory sentences into English law, he exposed the naivete of the government's belief that such penalties would have a significant deterrent effect, referring to the evidence against this and the evidence that the risk of detection was more powerful. [...]  Governments are also inconsistent on the point: only a few years earlier, a White Paper stated that `It is unrealistic to construct sentencing arrangements on the assumption that most offenders will weigh up the possibilities in advance and base their conduct on rational calculation.  Often, they do not.' ''  -- Andrew Ashworth, Sentencing and Criminal Justice (Cambridge University Press, 2005) p.79.

``... the deterrent effects of sentencing and of the process may be diluted considerably by enforcement policy or, at least, by beliefs about the risks of detection.  As we noted earlier, the evidence suggests that it is beliefs about the probability of detection rather than about the quantum of punishment which are more likely to influence human behaviour.'' -- ibid, p.79.

[Edited to fix a typo.]


< Message edited by beeble -- 11/23/2007 2:43:52 PM >

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/23/2007 5:30:30 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

NorthernGent wrote: Visit Saudi or the UAE and you'll see that a no tolerance policy generates a relatively low crime rate.

Do you have stats on the crime rate in Saudi Arabia and the UAE that you can quote?  Do you have any evidence of a causal relationship between judicial policy and the crime rate?



https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=65202

The above is a report on the crime situation in the UAE. 'Not sure of the reputation of the author.

In terms of evidence supporting the relationship...'fraid not: you'll just have to take it or leave it.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/24/2007 4:09:58 PM   
beeble


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quote:

NorthernGent wrote: https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=65202

The above is a report on the crime situation in the UAE. 'Not sure of the reputation of the author.

In terms of evidence supporting the relationship...'fraid not: you'll just have to take it or leave it.

OK, so we can assume the crime rate in the UAE is fairly low, though the report does say that it's hard to get hold of actual data.  As for the report's statement that ``The low level of crimes committed against westerners and UAE nationals is due primarily to the UAE judicial system, which acts swiftly and severely against criminals,'' well, this is a US government document and American judicial seems to be based to a large extent on the assumption that harsh penalties deter crime.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/24/2007 4:21:41 PM   
beeble


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quote:

laurell3 wrote: I always ponder studies that suggest one way or the other. Is there a questionnaire for people that actually have intended to act on the impulse to murder someone and changed their mind. Do you honestly think such people are being questioned to come up with the studies that suggest the death penalty is or is not a deterrent? Most homicides are done in a impulsive, spur of the moment fashion. I highly doubt these people think about the death penalty or much of anything else or than rage or whatever emotion is consuming them.

The surveys are done, essentially, by asking prisoners ``Do you think you would have committed that crime if the penalty had been higher?''  The answer is consistently ``yes,'' regardless of whether the crime they committed was on the spur of the moment or had been planned in depth.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/24/2007 4:45:54 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

quote:

Politesub53 wrote: We have the absurd situation in the UK where terrorists who come here to kill, cant be returned to their own country if there is a chance they will be sentenced to death.

That's nothing more than a consistent application of the principle that killing people is wrong.  It's wrong for the terrorists to do it, it's wrong for us to do it and it's wrong for us to send them somewhere where somebody else will do it.



I dont see killing people that wish to kill me as wrong. I see that as survival. If they dont want to be sent someplace they may be killed then its simple, dont come here and carry out acts of terror. To do otherwise is to have double standards.

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