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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 4:19:51 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hello ItalianSMistress

Please follow along with the statistics below

The FBI says there were 17,034 murders in The United States in 2006… the average time served for murder before parole is between 10 and 17 years. Just as a guess I would say it is safe to say at least 10,000 of those will live to be paroled.

The FBI says .2 percent will be convicted of murder again… if my math is right that is about 200 more murder victims.

Now if those murders were executed 200 lives would be saved… so to say capital punishment has no effect on murder rates is wrong....I just hope one of those 200 aren’t someone you love.

Lets be conservative and say only 3000 murders had irrefutable evidence… that would still save 60 lives… not insignificant considering that is only ONE years worth of murders.
Butch

.2% of 10,000 is 20 not 200.

In the UK we have recently had unsolved murders solved by scientific breakthroughs. In one case a guy had wrongly served 16 years in jail. Stephen Kisko died a year after his release and in my view the jail term for an innocent man, was indeed a death penalty. In the other a guy has been charged with a crime which everyone thought was committed by another ( Stagg ). Even after Stagg was found to be innocent, some of the detectives in the case insisted he was. Before we talk about death penalties, which are fine by me if the right person is convicted, we need to ensure innocent people dont get found guilty, Sadly i doubt that will ever happen. In high profile crimes police are still under a multitude of pressure to get a result and justice is lost in the rush for a conviction.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 5:39:24 AM

subrob1967

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Until the congress amends that pesky fifth amendment, the state will maintain the right to put to death anyone they feel they need to.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 8:30:13 AM

kdsub

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Hi NorthernGent

Here is a report on the UN crime statistics....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece

Here is another...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

Here is another

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

As we have mentioned before an internet search can always find information supporting both side of any position... but the UN statistics are pretty reliable..I think....If nothing else these links will make you aware that America is not any worse than your country in crime.

Politesub53...thank you I have never been very good with zeros..20 is still too many.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/20/2007 8:31:34 AM >

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 8:39:20 AM

meatcleaver

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The problem you have is that you are showing reported crimes and not actual crimes. People report more crimes whe they are confident something will be done about it. Where people tend not to report crimes is where people think nothing will be done about it. Women report more rape in England now more than ever before and one of the reasons is not because rape as a crime is going up but because women now feel more confident they will be taken seriously and something will be done by the authorities. All the countries in the bottom list you mention collate stats differently.

Murder is about the only crime you can have accurate stats on because there is a body that has to be disposed of. That statistic the US holds the prize.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/20/2007 8:41:01 AM >

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 8:39:47 AM

kdsub

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Politesub53

I am all for strict rules on when to apply the death penalty…but do you agree there are some murders where there is no doubt of guilt?

We have all seen security cameras where a robber pulls a gun and shoots and kills a store clerk… There are murders where you know for sure who is guilty and the circumstances… those people I believe should be executed.

Butch

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 9:35:40 AM

bipolarber

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Let's see... IF the death penalty were a deterrant, then why isn't Texas one of the most peaceful states in the union? Last I heard, they rank in the bottom fourth of the country, due to their violent crime rate. By the same token, why aren't the states that have banned the death penalty huge gapeing sores of rampant murder, rape and assaults?

It seem the reality is that there is no correlation between the two. It really becomes a question of: Does the state have the right to take a human life? Offhand, I say no. I'm much more in line with the line of reasoning offered on "Boston Legal" a few weeks back... the death penalty is just the government's way if standing in for the family and loved ones of the killer's victims. I say, sure, let the justice system try and convict them... but give the folks who knew the victim the chance to pull the trigger on the creeps. Or not, as the case may be.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 9:48:45 AM

Politesub53

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kdsub, yes i agree with you, in some cases the proof is clear for everyone to see. I dont know if the death penalty is or isnt a deterent, but as i said before, its fine by me if guilty people are given the death penalty.

We have the absurd situation in the UK where terrorists who come here to kill, cant be returned to their own country if there is a chance they will be sentenced to death.

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Post #: 67

RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 10:06:35 AM

popeye1250

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I wonder just who it was that said that the death penalty "was" a "deterant?"
Or who began saying that it "wasn't" a deterant?
And, if it (is) supposed to be a deterant how can it deter people if it's done in private behind closed doors instead of in public where everyone can see it?
I don't know if it would "deter" anyone but I don't think that that's the purpose of the death penalty.
Even if it's not a deterant it's very effective when used.
If we started executing people in public again then it may begin to have some deterant affect.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 10:56:04 AM

Katchoo

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Interesting thread and contributions. I work within a field where I see violent crime up close and personal. As far as the death penalty being a deterant, have we not as a society separated ourselves from death moreso than any other time in history? Have you ever touched a dead body? Used to be when someone died the family or community would take care of the body, wash and dress it, sit with it, bury it. Now when someone dies we make a phone call and an ambulance or the coroner swoops in and carries them away. I think this separation is part of what causes rubbernecking. How can death be a deterrant when most people do not know the face of death?
Another side to this is that the people who commit the largest portion of the these crimes, in my experience, tend to be people who have been staring down that road for a while. They start with burglaries, proceed to robberies, then graduate to murder. There are so many failed choices along the way. Premeditation is often a factor in the decision to kill someone, so again, failed choices.
Personally I am terrified of being tried by my peers. There are too many cases in which things go wrong. I still firmly believe in the death penalty though, but then I am a Hammurabi fan. *grins* It would be nice to see the endless appeals process replaced with a panel of intelligent, impartial people on the federal level who do nothing but review cases and decide if the evidence in the case truly shows there was "no doubt", such as in highly forensic based cases (DNA) or video footage as kdsub pointed out, though the question then becomes who will sit on the panel?
We do tend as a society to be growing more and more civilized though, if you think about it. Read "The History of Crime" sometime. Only recently are you not entitled to kill someone of a lower class then yourself, such as slaves or serfs. No more wild west justice these days either. So our views of the taking of life as a society have evolved.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 12:24:14 PM

Lordandmaster

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It's strange to me how the people who usually clamor for "small government" tend to be the first in line to hand government the most terrible power of all. Nothing irritates me more than hearing the phrase "small government" in political discussions. The debate between the Left and the Right isn't about big government vs. small government; it's about the proper role of government in society. The Right seems to believe that the role of government should be restricted to executing criminals and invading sovereign nations in the name of national security. I believe that government of the people, by the people, and for the people entails a good deal more than that.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 12:57:02 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I wonder just who it was that said that the death penalty "was" a "deterant?"
Or who began saying that it "wasn't" a deterant?
And, if it (is) supposed to be a deterant how can it deter people if it's done in private behind closed doors instead of in public where everyone can see it?
I don't know if it would "deter" anyone but I don't think that that's the purpose of the death penalty.
Even if it's not a deterant it's very effective when used.
If we started executing people in public again then it may begin to have some deterant affect.

i dont think of it as a deterrent......i think of it as a fair punishment...nothing more, nothing less.

there are different degrees of punishment for different bad choices we make in life. imho, 99% of folks that kill someone, make a choice to do it, when they had options.

if you make the choice to take someone elses life, when you were not protecting your life, loved ones life, or heck, ill even say your property(unless your property is someting illegal), you should give up your life for making that bad choice.

my opinion only.....and it wont change, as i am sure those of you that oppose the death penalty wont change you opinions either.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 1:44:32 PM

Aneirin

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Maybe the death pealty deters some would be murderers, maybe not, but pre meditated murder, is it fair to others if that murderer was incarcerated,(I am in the UK where life may not mean life).

As I see it, what use is there for a person who commits murder for pleasure, fun, sexual gratification etc. Not much in my view, better for all of us if they no longer existed

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 2:47:54 PM

kittiekatt

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Look at Canada. It doesn't have a death penalty, and it's not exactly known as a violent place is it? It's got a very low crime rate.

I'm Canadian, but actually pro-death penalty. I think if you can take someone's life away, then yours can be taken away as well. Why should Americans, and whoever else pay taxes for the rest of their lives to keep the people locked up, when they could just be executed. I know it sounds harsh, but it's not as if they don't deserve it.

It doesn't deter the murder rate because people don't think right before they kill someone "oh, I might be executed."

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 3:00:06 PM

Lkg4MstrSacramen

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no it doesn't. Stupid people who are acting on emotions are not going to stop and ask themselves "gee, what will happen if i do this" they are not capable of thinking that far ahead, most are below 3rd grade in reading.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 3:11:38 PM

kittiekatt

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Exactly. :P

There are a few exceptions, but for the most part...

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 3:23:09 PM

InkedMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittiekatt

Look at Canada. It doesn't have a death penalty, and it's not exactly known as a violent place is it? It's got a very low crime rate.

Take a look at the Quebec Biker War, starting in 94 and ran into late 2002 between 2 clubs I will not name here. Rather violent I'd say.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 3:25:10 PM

kittiekatt

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If you're going to point out every little thing, yes. But for the most part, Canada isn't violent. Last year we had like 54 murders?

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 4:49:07 PM

NorthernGent

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Hi

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi NorthernGent

Here is a report on the UN crime statistics....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece

The above relates to assault, i.e not rape or murder (universally acknowledged as the most violent of crimes).

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Here is another...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

Again, you'll find nothing in the above regarding murder and rape...with the exception of an acknowledgement that the US has a relatively high murder rate (as per one of the bullet points).

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Here is another

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

The above charts averages of various crimes.

As per my original post, the US has a higher rate of murder and rape, Britain has a higher rate of less serious crimes such as robbery and assault.

Try this article from the BBC which summarises stats from the British Home Office and the US Department of Justice.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/810522.stm

An extract from the report:

A report produced by the US Department of Justice in 1998 would appear to support the Home Office's claims.
It shows the murder rate was 5.7 times higher in the US than England and Wales and the rape rate was about three times higher.

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 4:51:00 PM

ItalianSMistress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

I just wanted to point out that the quote in My signature is from "that Night Stalker guy" His name is Richard Ramirez

How ironic,,,,,

He shouldn't be quoted. We shouldn't have to be subjected to the thoughts of these wastes of humanity. They shouldn't be giving interviews or writing books. If they are not going to kill them, then they should build a gulag where they go to never be heard from again. Maybe on one of the many deserted islands the United States owns. You know, one where they used to test nuclear weapons. Then and only then will I agree with getting rid of the death penalty for people like this.

Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but it is not everyones opinion, thank God, and those of us that enjoy reading about these people can. And if no one ever interviewed these people or anything, how would anyone ever learn anything about what makes this happen?

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RE: Does the Death Penalty Deter Murders? - 11/20/2007 5:30:58 PM

NorthernGent

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General reply:

Visit Saudi or the UAE and you'll see that a no tolerance policy generates a relatively low crime rate.

I would hazard a guess that the death penalty does indeed deter murder, and that the relatively high rate of murder in the US has nothing whatsoever to do with the death penalty.

For me, the death penalty is like something out of an Arabian Nights tale; you know, turning people to stone or beheading them: it really is that uncivilised.

What's interesting is that Britain and the old colonies (could be wrong with Canada) are a) the most conservative countries in the developed world b) have the highest rates of serious crime in the developed world and c) preach this eye for an eye, neanderthal, reactionary solution (Britain doesn't have the death penalty, but polls suggest we're 50/50 on it, if not leaning towards 55/45 in favour). Correlation or coincidence?

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