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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/20/2007 8:49:28 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I'm a Deist.  I believe in a creator, nothing more.  I was raised in a non-practicing Methodist family.  We went to church when someone died or got married with the exception of my grandmother sending me, my brother, and the cousins to vacation bible school when she had us for the summer.  I suspect that had more to do with giving us something to do for 8 hours more than instilling spirituality in us. 

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/20/2007 8:59:03 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I'm a Deist.  I believe in a creator, nothing more.  I was raised in a non-practicing Methodist family.  We went to church when someone died or got married with the exception of my grandmother sending me, my brother, and the cousins to vacation bible school when she had us for the summer.  I suspect that had more to do with giving us something to do for 8 hours more than instilling spirituality in us. 


No Christmass Eve ceromony or even Easter Sunday service?

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/20/2007 9:12:45 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

No Christmass Eve ceromony or even Easter Sunday service?


Nope, unless you count egg nogging yourself into bliss and gossiping about the non-present family members to be a ceremony.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/20/2007 10:55:33 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf

The 144,000 is correct for the RAPTURE. 12 thousand of the 12 tribes will make it in the rapture. That is not the number going to heaven as the Jehova Witnesses believe. Hope I clarified some of my beliefs.

In Christ,
Dave


Now this is interesting.  I have heard various theories about the 144,000 but this is a new one for Me. 
I have read and came to understand that the 144,000 are indeed Jews.  It is 12,000 each from the 12 tribes.  Howeve, what I understand is that they will convert after the Rapture.  The will be specially sealed by God so that they do not endure physical death during the 7 years of the tribulation but will be standing at the end when Christ returns.  They will suffer and be persecuted, but they will not die and will see the second coming in their worldy bodies.  Their job will be to evangelize as many of the remaining in the population as possible during that 7 years so that as many as can be saved will be.  I never read anywhere, or had any inkling, that they would be included in the Rapture.  Of course I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture (not Mid or Post Trib), so it would only make sense that these chosen Jews would not come to conversion before the Rapture, but during the very beginning of the 7 Year Tribulation.  

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 11/20/2007 10:58:01 PM >

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/20/2007 11:27:37 PM   
bryhtwulf


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Joined: 11/18/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

I'm also Pentecostal- AoG.   However the position papers do state belief in the trinity.  I haven't really explored the oneness doctrine but my understanding was that they do not believe in the triune nature of God. 

I'm fairly new to being Pentecostal with a background of being Methodist and Disciples of Christ/Christian.   Please let me know if my understanding is wrong. 


Now this is interesting. I was raised Assembly of God. My sub was raised Baptist. We are now attending a Methodist church and have chosen Methodisim as our denomination of practice to christianity. Either way, we both value the Trinity as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I never heard of the phrase "Jesus-only Christian" myself. After all, the whole concept of being a Christian is the belief that Jesus is the son of God, came to earth as a man, died for our sins, arose from the dead, and will come again.

Sure, we have different denomination in Christianity. However, I never heard of another type of christain who didn't follow the teachings of Jesus. So other than "Jesus Only" what other types of Christians are out there?

Then again, I do remember that people in India have a nack for practicing many religions at once. When you tell them about God and Jesus, many just add Jesus to the list of there other religions. Also, being that Buddisim is considered to be a philosiphy and not a religion, I have heard of there being "Christian Buddist." Does this have anything to do with being a Jesus-Only Christian?


LOL! We believe all of that too. We just believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost aren't 3 seperate things, they are all the same, Jesus. It comes from two verses mainly, "Hear O Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is one" and Jesus himself saying "I am my father and my father is I and we are one".

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/20/2007 11:30:41 PM   
bryhtwulf


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/18/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf

The 144,000 is correct for the RAPTURE. 12 thousand of the 12 tribes will make it in the rapture. That is not the number going to heaven as the Jehova Witnesses believe. Hope I clarified some of my beliefs.

In Christ,
Dave


Now this is interesting.  I have heard various theories about the 144,000 but this is a new one for Me. 
I have read and came to understand that the 144,000 are indeed Jews.  It is 12,000 each from the 12 tribes.  Howeve, what I understand is that they will convert after the Rapture.  The will be specially sealed by God so that they do not endure physical death during the 7 years of the tribulation but will be standing at the end when Christ returns.  They will suffer and be persecuted, but they will not die and will see the second coming in their worldy bodies.  Their job will be to evangelize as many of the remaining in the population as possible during that 7 years so that as many as can be saved will be.  I never read anywhere, or had any inkling, that they would be included in the Rapture.  Of course I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture (not Mid or Post Trib), so it would only make sense that these chosen Jews would not come to conversion before the Rapture, but during the very beginning of the 7 Year Tribulation.  

I too believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Also, I do believe that Jews are the only people who do not have to believe and accept jesus that make it to heaven as well. This stems from the Book of Daniel, where God states he will never break his covenant with the Jews. Also, Mary (Jesus's Mother) was, if I'm not mistaken, never baptised. I beleive Jesus would want his Mother to make it. (NOTE- Not the offical stance of most pentecostal churches, merely my own)

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/20/2007 11:48:02 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

I'm also Pentecostal- AoG.   However the position papers do state belief in the trinity.  I haven't really explored the oneness doctrine but my understanding was that they do not believe in the triune nature of God. 

I'm fairly new to being Pentecostal with a background of being Methodist and Disciples of Christ/Christian.   Please let me know if my understanding is wrong. 


Now this is interesting. I was raised Assembly of God. My sub was raised Baptist. We are now attending a Methodist church and have chosen Methodisim as our denomination of practice to christianity. Either way, we both value the Trinity as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I never heard of the phrase "Jesus-only Christian" myself. After all, the whole concept of being a Christian is the belief that Jesus is the son of God, came to earth as a man, died for our sins, arose from the dead, and will come again.

Sure, we have different denomination in Christianity. However, I never heard of another type of christain who didn't follow the teachings of Jesus. So other than "Jesus Only" what other types of Christians are out there?

Then again, I do remember that people in India have a nack for practicing many religions at once. When you tell them about God and Jesus, many just add Jesus to the list of there other religions. Also, being that Buddisim is considered to be a philosiphy and not a religion, I have heard of there being "Christian Buddist." Does this have anything to do with being a Jesus-Only Christian?


LOL! We believe all of that too. We just believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost aren't 3 seperate things, they are all the same, Jesus. It comes from two verses mainly, "Hear O Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is one" and Jesus himself saying "I am my father and my father is I and we are one".


Bryhtwulf, I'm not too concerned about the "management structure" in Heaven.
I mean does it really make a difference if the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" are one or three beings?
If they're seperate beings great, more people to party with!
I was brought up a strict Catholic but I just have no interest in that anymore. Something about worshiping saints just doesn't appeal to me. And I don't like all that hellfire and brimstone stuff that they try to push on people.
"My GOD" is not a punishing GOD, he's a hot shit with the best jokes in the Universe.
If he made us he *has* to have a sense of humor.
And if you really read the bible it's not the story of the Christians it's the story of the Jews thousands of years before their were Christians.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/21/2007 12:26:55 AM   
bryhtwulf


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/18/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

I'm also Pentecostal- AoG.   However the position papers do state belief in the trinity.  I haven't really explored the oneness doctrine but my understanding was that they do not believe in the triune nature of God. 

I'm fairly new to being Pentecostal with a background of being Methodist and Disciples of Christ/Christian.   Please let me know if my understanding is wrong. 


Now this is interesting. I was raised Assembly of God. My sub was raised Baptist. We are now attending a Methodist church and have chosen Methodisim as our denomination of practice to christianity. Either way, we both value the Trinity as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I never heard of the phrase "Jesus-only Christian" myself. After all, the whole concept of being a Christian is the belief that Jesus is the son of God, came to earth as a man, died for our sins, arose from the dead, and will come again.

Sure, we have different denomination in Christianity. However, I never heard of another type of christain who didn't follow the teachings of Jesus. So other than "Jesus Only" what other types of Christians are out there?

Then again, I do remember that people in India have a nack for practicing many religions at once. When you tell them about God and Jesus, many just add Jesus to the list of there other religions. Also, being that Buddisim is considered to be a philosiphy and not a religion, I have heard of there being "Christian Buddist." Does this have anything to do with being a Jesus-Only Christian?


LOL! We believe all of that too. We just believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost aren't 3 seperate things, they are all the same, Jesus. It comes from two verses mainly, "Hear O Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is one" and Jesus himself saying "I am my father and my father is I and we are one".


Bryhtwulf, I'm not too concerned about the "management structure" in Heaven.
I mean does it really make a difference if the "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" are one or three beings?
If they're seperate beings great, more people to party with!
I was brought up a strict Catholic but I just have no interest in that anymore. Something about worshiping saints just doesn't appeal to me. And I don't like all that hellfire and brimstone stuff that they try to push on people.
"My GOD" is not a punishing GOD, he's a hot shit with the best jokes in the Universe.
If he made us he *has* to have a sense of humor.
And if you really read the bible it's not the story of the Christians it's the story of the Jews thousands of years before their were Christians.

Please, call me Dave. yes, God does have a sense of humor, very much so. But yes, he is punishing. I'm sorry, but child molestors and rapists will go to where "the fire is so hot it burns white, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". The bible IS the story of the Jews. The term Chritisans really didn't come into play for about 200 years later. early Christians were still calling themselves Jews. It wasn't until constantine really that the faith "took off". Jesus was born, lived, and died a Jew. his disciples and Apostles were Jewish. Even hsi real name "Yeshu ben Nazareth" is hebrew.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/21/2007 12:32:54 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well I think Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein go to Heaven too.
Thing is they're there for us to take target practice on.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/21/2007 12:34:50 AM   
bryhtwulf


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Joined: 11/18/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well I think Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein go to Heaven too.
Thing is they're there for us to take target practice on.

ROFL! I like your style. How long have you been on this site or into this lifestyle?

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/21/2007 6:26:45 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Joined: 12/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf

LOL! We believe all of that too. We just believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost aren't 3 seperate things, they are all the same, Jesus. It comes from two verses mainly, "Hear O Israel, The LORD our God, the LORD is one" and Jesus himself saying "I am my father and my father is I and we are one".


So they're three seperate beings as one. That's what I was always taught. They're all the same but also different. God sent his Holy Sprit. God sent his Only Son. However, all of us are Gods children. So how is it that he only has one son? It's interesting that most of us call God our Father. 

Either way, the "Trinity" is to describe how God sends seperate parts of himself to us rather than his Whole Self as we do not obtain the capacity to endure such a Mighty Presence. 

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/21/2007 7:00:01 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf

Please, call me Dave. yes, God does have a sense of humor, very much so. But yes, he is punishing. I'm sorry, but child molestors and rapists will go to where "the fire is so hot it burns white, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". The bible IS the story of the Jews. The term Chritisans really didn't come into play for about 200 years later. early Christians were still calling themselves Jews. It wasn't until constantine really that the faith "took off". Jesus was born, lived, and died a Jew. his disciples and Apostles were Jewish. Even hsi real name "Yeshu ben Nazareth" is hebrew.


I always thought that the road to salvation was to ask for forgiveness for your sins and to accept Jesus as your personal savior....Couldn't rapists believe in the "J" dude ask for forgiveness but still have a healthy and hardy appetite for rape?  I would think that there are far more worst ways to offend the Lord .....I mean what the fuck! Pedophilia and rape couldn't even crack the top ten God Glamor Don'ts!!!

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/21/2007 7:43:40 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Well I think Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein go to Heaven too.
Thing is they're there for us to take target practice on.

ROFL! I like your style. How long have you been on this site or into this lifestyle?


In the "lifestyle" since I was 7 and got a pair of plastic handcuffs in a "Sherriff's Kit" and handcuffed the little girls in the neighborhood to a tree.
Here, about a year and a half.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/21/2007 11:07:44 PM   
nyrisa


Posts: 1830
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		I am a Deist. Short and simple, it is a belief system I can embrace.

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The last thing I want to do is hurt you...but it is still on my list.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/22/2007 12:54:15 AM   
XianDominSJ


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Joined: 9/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf
Jesus only is the belief that the trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are not correct, that they are all the same, JESUS. To me Jesus is all of the them. I am correctly known as an Apostolic, a type of Pentecostal. Aslo, we believe you must do a lot more to make it to heaven. You must be baptized in the water, FULL WATER BAPTISM, in the name of Jesus, not the trinity.


"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - Jesus commanding his disciples in Matthew 28:19. It's always funny when the Oneness crowd declares the Christ's commanded instruction to baptize somehow isn't Christian!

quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf
You must recieve the gift of the Holy spirit (I have spoken in tongues, been slain, and drunk in the Holy Ghost).

Ugh.  NOWHERE in Scripture is "tongues" (regardless of whether you believe in them for today or not) taught as sign of salvation or a requirement. NOwhere.  Every mainline Pentecostal denomination has recognized this "requirement" as totally unbiblical, as has every denomination outside "Oneness" cults and splinter groups. In point of fact, "tongues" is only mentioned in Acts and one Epistle (1 Corinthians only), nowhere else.  If, as you insist, "tongues-speaking" and "water baptism in the name of Jesus only" is the only way to be saved, then believers outside of Apostolic Pentecostalism (that's 2000 years worth of Christianity, since Oneness Apostolicism is a 19th century invention) is now in Hell, as if their faith in the finish saving work of Christ for the remission of their sins wan't enough to save them.  Total garbage, bryhtwulf.  The truth is this: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." [see Rom 10]   As for "slain" and "drunk" in the Spirit, this, too, is taught nowhere in Scripture.

For those Pentecostals interested in this important issue within Pentecostalism, see the "Apostles and Prophets" official position paper from the Assemblies of God. Though the AoG and I have our differences, I will give them much-deserved credit for speaking out against the unbiblical practices and false theology of the "Onesss/Apostolic" Pentecostalism.

Some things are so basic and clear that all major branches of Christianity (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestant, Coptic, etc.) find common ground or darn close.   In spite all your "praise the Lord" Christianese, virtually everything Oneness/Apostolicism believes falls outside of, and contrary to, the most basic tenets of the Christian faith throughout the centuries.

Funny thing is, if you did a little research in Church history (especially pre-4th Century) you'd see that the Trinity was THE unifying doctrine of the Church.  No one knows who said it, but it's a common refrain: "If you try to understand the Trinity you lose your mind, but if you deny it you lose your soul."

BTW, I was baptized Pentecostal some 17 years ago (though I left AoG some years ago) so I know these issues well.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/22/2007 1:11:00 AM   
hobbit9sub4u


Posts: 130
Joined: 10/29/2006
From: Bates Motel(florida)
Status: offline 		OMG! i thought i was the only Apostolic Pentecostal ever on a site liek this! wow, what a small world. i would love to talk sometime about things liek this.

Its late so i havent read the whole thread yet, but from what i have read (mainly about your beliefs, which are pretty darn close, if not identical to my own) i look forward to seeign what everyone else has to say.

i once told someone that i was at church when they messaged me and i was away and they blocked me, no explaination, all they said was , "wait, you go to church? you believe in GOD?" after i said yes i never heard from t hem again:)




< Message edited by hobbit9sub4u -- 11/22/2007 1:19:26 AM >

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/22/2007 2:12:11 AM   
XianDominSJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bryhtwulf
Also, I do believe that Jews are the only people who do not have to believe and accept jesus that make it to heaven as well. This stems from the Book of Daniel, where God states he will never break his covenant with the Jews.


According to all New Testament Scriptures, no one is saved apart from faith in Christ -- Jews included.  In fact, Paul opens his great letter to the Romans in Chapter 1 stating: "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." Yes, the Jews need the Gospel.  But the reason it's to the Jews first is something that actually confirms their need of Christ -- He is their promise.

God broke off His covenant with the country of Israel (ethnic Israel) when He sent them into exile in Babylon, as stated clearly: "I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries." [see Jer 3:8, a verse you don't hear in Churches often]   So God divorced (yes, divorced!) Israel, rightfully and justifiably braking off the convenant because of her spiritual unfaithfulness (metaphorically represented as adultery). God didn't fail in keeping the covenant, "faithless Israel" failed.  This is also demonstrated later in Jeremiah (i.e. chapter 31) where God promises a new and better covenant. If the old covenant (to Moses) was still intact, then such a promise wouldn't make sense unless a previous covenant had been ended.  Speaking of comparing the new and old (Mosaic) covenants, I recommend you read 2 Corintians chapter 3 regarding our ministry of the new covenant (in Christ). Therein Paul compares the Mosaic covenant with "the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit."

Where does this leave the book of Daniel and the promise? Daniel addresses God's warning to wayward and unfaithful Israel, warning her to turn from her ways.  But you must understand i that "not all Israel is Israel." [Romans 9]  "Israel" in many places in Scripture refers to those faithful to God (before Christ), not a race or country.  So when God promised to keep his covenant with Israel, he was (and is) referring to the faithful, as Paul writes: "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned'.'  In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."  Basically, there is a country of Israel (ethnic) and there are the "faithful" of Israel.  So did God break his promise? No! He sent Christ to be the salvation of all those who would put faith in Israel.

Now "the Gentiles are fellow heirs [with the Jews], members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." [Ephesians 3:6]   So the Jews are not saved apart from Christ, but rather Gentiles are saved with Jews by faith in promise announce to Abraham, confirmed in Daniel (and Jeremiah, Isaiah and all the others) which God kept and fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Christ.

Covenant theology aside, your claim doesn't make logical sense either... The whole idea of Jesus claiming to be Messiah -- the promised redeemer for the Jews -- is kind of pointless if they don't need Him.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/22/2007 3:18:25 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		i believe in the simple statement of Jesus, who said "It is not God's will that any should be lost."  i believe that it's not religion or any human to determine who is going to hell.  i believe that in the end, no one will be in hell because that's not God's will that any be lost.  How God goes about saving souls is not up to me to know or understand but it conforts me to know that God's will is law and will be done dispite our actions and belief to the contrary (Jesus also pointed to the lesson of Jonah who did everything he could to twart the will of God).  The lesson of Jonah also shows Who is in charge.

The most abundant chemical substance on Earth is water.  The unique properties of water is the whole explaination of the Trinity.  Water is the only substance that exists naturally in three states, solid, liquid, and gas.  Water will dissolve more substances than any other yet maintains its unique chemical properties.  The whole nature of God can be seen in water.

Personally i believe what the ancient (probably more ancient than Judism) religion of the Yoruba who state that all the world's religions hold a piece of the Truth and only through world unity will all the Truth be revealed.

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RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/22/2007 5:59:06 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		I agree that it is not God's will that any be lost.  However, he does give humans free will.  That means that it is up to us to accept the grace that God is willing to give us.  We do that just as XianDom stated, you believe and confess that Jesus is Lord. 

The whole argument about a list of things one must do to be saved is like the early church where Paul addressed those who were preaching Jesus plus circumcision.  Its not plus anything its "Jesus only" that saved us. 

As I stated before I'm very new (6-7) months of going to AoG.  However, in the community I'm in it was the only church I tried to attend which wasn't lukewarm.  All preached from the Bible,  all did the "right things" like being welcoming etc, but the passion for the Lord was missing in the other churches.  Another component was missing as well and thats the feeling of love that one should feel from the other members of the church.  That was the deciding factor for me. 

One thing I don't care for that much is the pressure to  have "holy spirit baptism."   Not because its a bad thing or something that shouldn't be sought but because it has a performance quality to it that bothers me personally.  I don't believe that is the only way the holy spririt makes himself known in our lives, or even necessarily the initial evidence. 

Having said that, I recently received the baptism in the Holy Spirit and it has been a great blessing to me and has done nothing but enrich my life.  However, I don't like that people sometimes feel "less than" if they don't have it.

At this point I also feel very pleased that this thread hasn't gotten negative and despite disagreements people have been polite. 


(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Oneness christians here? - 11/22/2007 6:22:49 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		i've had the same 'free will" discussion with my mother and i would hesitate to disagree entirely.  my interpretation of the lesson of Jonah is that God's will prevails even against our "free" will.  That means that we are free to take the path but that our destination (and only the destination) is pre-determined.  Sort of like we are going to Chicago but free will lets us choose the route and the method of getting there.  i personally don't believe that our free will ever supercede the will of God.  For me, knowing that God will make sure i get to where i'm supposed to go regardless of my mistakes is the comfort of my personal religion.

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Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

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(in reply to sharainks)
Profile   Post #: 40
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