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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/9/2004 3:29:19 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		M. Leonidas-

I do still use safewords, and when I do make a contract, one of the items will state that using the word "enough" puts the contract in abeyance till we have worked out whatever the issue is. One girl would use it in the day to day so we could discuss issues or plans outside of the dynamic, as she felt uncomfortable arguing or disagreeing with me otherwise.

Usually, to bring the contract or the dynamic or whatever back in force I'd just ask "are you my girl?" to which she'd answer "always".

It was kinda nice.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/9/2004 6:52:03 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

invented the safe word in 1978.


Was that during your years in the Old Guard?

Sinergy

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/9/2004 11:23:14 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

Was that during your years in the Old Guard?


Ahhh- you Doms today.....

Let me tell you, it was different then. It was tough. We didn't have these storebought fancy floggers- we just hit each other with rocks and sticks, and sometimes Joe, who was little.

We didn't have nine kinds of clamps- we didn't _have_ clamps. Just our teeth. We had to sharpen our teeth by hand, too.

If we wanted to wear leather, we had to go catch a cow first. Or catch Joe, but he'd get all strecthed out if you wore him too long.

But we had honor and respect - but no protocol, as the letter 'L' hadn't been invented yet.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/9/2004 11:45:34 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		Thanks for the laugh Lawrence.

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/10/2004 6:02:11 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		If the letter L had not been invented yet, obviously everybody who claims to be a part of the Old Guard must be wrong, since it would be pronounced Odd Guard.

But I digress.

In the classes I help teach, some of our students have pretty extensive assault / abuse histories stemming back to childhood. It is entirely possible that during a mock fight, the male assailant can scare her to the point where total dissassociation occurs. Signs of this can include eyes rolling up into head, fetal position, and complete cognitive shutdown.

Our goal is to reprogram the limbic system of the student so that it is no longer programmed to give up when assaulted. I.e. the limbic system does not know the difference between a real assault and a mock assault; the student MUST win the fight.

We have a safe word. We tell the student that if what we are doing gets her to a place where she feels she will be lost,

*ponders his worst fears and nightmares*

all she has to do is say her own name.

To me, a safe word is a way the person I am playing with can tell me that something is wrong, without her being forced to try to articulate in the moment what is wrong. I have heard it said that open and honest communication is the key to this lifestyle; a safe word, used or not, is simply a form of communication.

-- Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/10/2004 8:35:33 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

To me, a safe word is a way the person I am playing with can tell me that something is wrong, without her being forced to try to articulate in the moment what is wrong. I have heard it said that open and honest communication is the key to this lifestyle; a safe word, used or not, is simply a form of communication.

-- Sinergy


Well said, Sinergy. I often find safe words more important to use in the beginning. I find that when I start knowing a person, safe words become less relevant as I learn their body language and their level of tolerance.

There are 2 ways I can play with safe words as a form of communication:

1. I can use a yellow/red code. Yellow when things are starting to become unbearable, and red when they are really too much.

2. I can also tell my sub to give me a number between 1 and 10 (10 being the most painful), especially if I’m not sure of how much pain he/she can take.

This being said, I’m always in control of whether or not I back down and continue. My opinion is that I don’t have to go full throttle each time and it is interesting to see how one can progress, accept, overcome, etc.

As you can see I’m not an old guard type person. (By the way topcat, thank you so much for the laugh!) And I could even argue (with out going into semantics please!) that I don’t have slaves but rather play with subs. I’m not the 24/7 kind. Perhaps the dynamic is very different there. But in my situation, it is important to me not to plow down my submissive partner’s limits and not to take into account his/her tolerance level but rather push gradually and communicate while doing so.

Lady Angelika

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 7/10/2004 8:36:43 AM >

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/10/2004 10:15:26 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
But we had honor and respect - but no protocol, as the letter 'L' hadn't been invented yet.


So were you known as "Awrence" back then? *smile*

Funniest post I have ever read on these boards...bravo.

Yours,
Taggard

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A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/10/2004 10:18:53 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
There are 2 ways I can play with safe words as a form of communication:


John Warren, in The Loving Dominant descried a third way of using safewords.

Essentially, in somthing like an interrogation scene, he would provide the sub with an answer to some question, and she would only give it when she had reached her pain limits. He when then interogate, torture, and play with the sub asking the same question over and over until she could take no more and gave the answer, thus ending the scene.

I have never used this technique, but have stored it away in my memory banks for some rainy day.

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/13/2004 5:06:42 AM   
kiki blue


Posts: 315
Joined: 1/16/2004
From: Brisbane, Australia
Status: offline 		A safe word shouldn't get in the way of open communication. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "My back is starting to get sore in this position" or "I have a cramp in my left foot".

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/13/2004 7:03:10 AM   
melycious


Posts: 45
Joined: 1/20/2004
Status: offline 		~darn sherriA for introducing me to these lists.. all i do now is type..

personally i disagree with safe words.. mostly cause i cant talk when in the middle of play, i disagree with safe gestures, cause umm..i do some strange gestures when in the middle of play....

i rely on a few things when playing or choosing new partners

1. watch them play in situations where you are not the partner
2. the color thing works very well, because its a direct question, it is not contigent on the sub/bottom getting up the courage, finding the words, or even focusing that much thru pain to get the safeword out... instead.... the dom/me asking what color .. stops the play for a second..and gives more then 1 option....becasue sometimes the pain is severe but the sensation is good.. and if you can go back with a yellow..and redo it... YUM
3. colors also provide a roadmap for the Dom/me
4. making sure that you review the scene AFTER the scene.... perhaps in writing, int talking, on voice mail, whatever works for you...

mely

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/13/2004 2:39:32 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
He when then interogate, torture, and play with the sub asking the same question over and over until she could take no more and gave the answer, thus ending the scene.


Being asked the same question over and over again sounds like torture!

*grins

- LA

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/13/2004 3:09:56 PM   
kiki blue


Posts: 315
Joined: 1/16/2004
From: Brisbane, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Being asked the same question over and over again sounds like torture!


No, being locked in a room and only being able to listen to Celine Dion or Mariah Carey sounds like torture

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/14/2004 3:23:22 AM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Hooooboy...

This was addressed in another thread, but I'll reiterate. I don't like safewords. I think they inhibit the clear communication that I need with my partner (sub/slave/bottom/masochist/switch/whomevershemaybe.) I prefer to make it clear, up front, that what she says is important. If she says "I want out of here" I usually do just that. The only time this doesn't apply, is in a 'forced' scenerio - where I explain that a serious "no, really, I need you to stop right now because I can't take it" is necessary. Stop, to me, usually means stop. Keep in mind, I DO NOT PLAY CASUALLY!!!! Thus, I personally have no use for safewords, as I prefer to know my slave and her limits and needs well enough not to push that envelope.

Having said all of this, for someone who is clearly 'new' or 'in training' I would -still- emphasize the need for safewords. Safewords have -absolutely- nothing to do with role i.e. submissive, slave, masochist, bottom, or just plain vanilla. More importantly, the assumption that a newbie or an anything-in-training would have enough knowlege to determine their role, and the subsequent 'accepted use' of safewords is a bit like expecting a grade school student to know if they're going to need advance physics and intermediate chemistry books, or advanced chemistry and intermediate physics books for college - you just don't know yet. Safewords are absolutely vital (in my mind) for newbies (even if I, personally, would not take a slave who needs them - thus I would be violating my own guideline....again!) The difference, for me, is that I explain what safewords are, why they're necessary for most people, and the reasons I don't personally subscribe. The sub/slave/newbie has the choice then to abide by my expectations, or not as she prefers - thus she is -Risk Aware- before she -Consents- to my -Kink-.

From what I read in this thread, the original poster got all the help she needed - and Lawrence gave me a good laugh... Thanks!

Stephan

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/14/2004 9:32:47 AM   
lookingwithin04


Posts: 48
Joined: 7/8/2004
Status: offline 		i can not stress it enough...YES YES YES YES YES

you do not know the person well enough to know what their limits and bounderies are. Also watch out some people have lighter skin than others, they bruise easier and then are sore the next day...that's something Master and i didn't anticipate the last time we did a punnishment scene, my butt was black and blue for three weeks later...not bad just in one little spot.

so yes always offer a safe word or two....one for keep it at the same pace or a little lighter and one for stop.

(in reply to jillwfsub4blkdom)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/14/2004 9:37:52 AM   
melycious


Posts: 45
Joined: 1/20/2004
Status: offline 		~just curious how a safeword would have helped you to know your ass would end up black and blue?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/14/2004 10:15:44 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare
Stop, to me, usually means stop. Keep in mind, I DO NOT PLAY CASUALLY!!!! Thus, I personally have no use for safewords, as I prefer to know my slave and her limits and needs well enough not to push that envelope.


Umm...you have a safeword; It's "stop". Perhaps you have no use for overiding the meaning of other words, but we all use safewords, even if they are never formally defined.

In what it is that we do, communication is vital. Eschewing any form of communication seems impractical. I like to use all communication tools available, but that is my style.

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/14/2004 2:45:53 PM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline 		Taggard,

My reasons for not using a 'formal' safeword, are threefold.

First, and most important, is I believe that safewords have the potential to inhibit the kind of communication needed to know when 'enough is enough.' I was involved with a submissive once who, bless her heart, wanted to please me with all her heart. So much so, that she feared saying 'enough.' No matter how her face screwed with pain, or how miserable she clearly appeared to me - she would refuse to say stop. It wasn't because she didn't want to - she was usually exhausted, miserable, and hesitatent to play again, because - to me - it seemed she did not enjoy the session. However, by not saying when 'enough was enough' the safeword actually impeded her growth.

Second, I believe it contridicts the expectation that a slave surrenders everything (just my opinion folks, don't get panties into a twist.) In giving her a way 'out' she is reminded that this is really an illusion - that she has the 'power' to walk away anytime she likes. But expecting her to say 'I can't take any moreeeeeee' she is not guarenteed that saying 'please stop' will end whatever is happening. This also helps to build trust, as over time she is gently pushed within her boundries, but perhaps a little outside her perceived boundries.

And, lastly, because I really do think communication is better when it's done clearly. There's less room for confusion on forgotten wrds, and it doesn't provide a false sense of security that sometimes seems to occur. Having safewords doesn't mean the Dom -is- safe, or that he -will- listen. Safewords aren't 'off switches' they are simply genuine pleas for help.

So, in effect I emply communication, without the formal trappings of a 'safe word.'

I hope this clarifies.

Stephan

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RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/14/2004 5:14:12 PM   
kiki blue


Posts: 315
Joined: 1/16/2004
From: Brisbane, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lookingwithin04
my butt was black and blue for three weeks later...not bad just in one little spot.


You say that like it's a bad thing!

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 7/14/2004 7:34:55 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline 		Hey Stephen,

Good points. I wasn't confused, just commenting...more below.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare
However, by not saying when 'enough was enough' the safeword actually impeded her growth.


How would not having a safeword have helped? Would she have given in and said stop if there was no safeword? Why would her desire to not give in have changed?

Just because you have a safeword, it doesn't mean you have to get the slave to say it every time you play. Why didn't you recognize the signs and stop before it was too much for her?

quote:


Second, I believe it contridicts the expectation that a slave surrenders everything (just my opinion folks, don't get panties into a twist.) In giving her a way 'out' she is reminded that this is really an illusion - that she has the 'power' to walk away anytime she likes.


(Same panty twisting caveats apply) The way I look at it, you actually are creating an illusion, whereas I am playing in the real world. I like the real world, and I do not want any illusions. The slave, at least in the US, does have the right to walk out at any time. To deny or pretend this isn't true, to me strikes of some kind of role play. I'd rather face the realities and build a structure that allows me to play within it.


quote:


And, lastly, because I really do think communication is better when it's done clearly.


I think you might have some misunderstanding about safewords and their use. They aren't meant to be a replacement for other means of communication. They aren't meant to be goals to be reached during a scene. They are simply additional tools made available to assist in communication.

If during a bondage scene, a slave looks distressed and complains about something poking her that hurts, I don't need her to safeword before I will look into it. However, if we get into a scene where she wants to be forced, taken and used, she will have the ability to fight with all her strength and yell whatever she likes because we have established safewords.

All that said, you have you style and I have mine. Enjoy!

Yours,
Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: should a slave in training be allowed safewords? - 10/12/2004 6:05:55 AM   
cynnacent1


Posts: 340
Joined: 6/25/2004
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		i am dragging this thread back to the surface as i feel it is an awsome topic. For most, safewords are very important to have in place. In that BDSM centers around pain it's important to point out that there are 'good' pains & 'bad' pains.

Good pains can be a mix of plain & pleasure, while bad pain is all about pain which lacks any pleasure, may be physically damaging and is best decribed as the body's way of sending out a very loud red flag. As for myself and Master when W/we play ... there are no safewords as others may define them, but you can be sure that when i quirm away quickly and defiantly and firmly utter that forbidden word 'NO' the tone in my voice tells all and He stops and takes note of whatever the issue might be and decides whther it is best to continue or not at that point.

It has only happened a few times with me (that i recall) although He may say otherwise: First time, i had simply reached a limit with regard to pain while being spanked with a belt. Second time, involved spanking with a brush. Another time involved a first time anal experience. As did several other times since. And one time only it involved an actual minor and shortlived physical injury which was a result of my squirming suddenly and a spank missing it's intended mark.

W/we have no true safe words. Master plays safely & knows quite well by my responces, when to stop when i have reached a limit during play.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 60
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