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What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:35:20 AM

pinakorbacs

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Joined: 3/22/2006
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Hi to everyone !
Though not new to CM or the lifestyle for that matter, this is my first post so bear with me ...
I always thought that hard limits refer to certain bdsm , sexual or other concrete/specific activities that one of the partners would not engage in, under any circumstances , for reasons of causing them extreme physical or emotional distress. It turns out there are subs that apply a very broad definition to the term, including abstract and very subjective feelings, such as 'don't ignore me "< whatever I do or don't do > as being a 'hard limit'. IMHO such an interpretation negates the very substance of the concept of submission. What others think on this?

Post #: 1

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:39:47 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Well, conservative politics are a hard limit for me. A lot of other things are too, but I tend to look at these things as guideposts that helped me choose the right person. I would not date a real sports fanatic for example...

I would not be with someone that was unaffectionate either.

Calling these things hard limits just makes it very clear what one is willing to tolerate within a relationship so the other party can know where the person stands in my mind.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to pinakorbacs)

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:43:55 AM

Vanatru

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The definition I was given for hard limits was this: anything that would cause the person to call the cops, get a restraining order, or otherwise completely remove them from the person that crossed that boundary. I'm not going to get more specific about things that fall less than that as looking at people's hard limits on their profile, I can pretty well tell if they know what they're doing or not.

< Message edited by Vanatru -- 11/28/2007 6:44:48 AM >

(in reply to pinakorbacs)

Post #: 3

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:45:40 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vanatru

The definition I was given for hard limits was this: anything that would cause the person to call the cops, get a restraining order, or otherwise completely remove them from the person that crossed that boundary. I'm not going to get more specific about things that fall less than that as looking at people's hard limits on their profile, I can pretty well tell if they know what they're doing or not.

Twuly?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Vanatru)

Post #: 4

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:49:01 AM

SimplyMichael

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Limits are things that are off limits for that relationship at that time.

If I play casually with someone, sex might be a limit, or someone may say that humiliation is okay but I can't call her a whore because that is linked to some childhood issue.

The goal of limits is to provide a space for submissives to set healthy and CLEAR boundaries to keep themselves psychologically and to a lesser extent, physically safe. They are also a tool one can use to limit/structure what you are offering to someone.

I edited this to add, in the real world we expect submissives to be fully functioning adults who are responsible for themselves. Understanding their own needs, creating and defending boundaries/lmits is a crucial part of that self care.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 11/28/2007 6:52:02 AM >

(in reply to Vanatru)

Post #: 5

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:50:03 AM

LivingInSin

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Joined: 6/12/2007
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I dont think stating a limit- hard or soft- negates being submissive. Communication goes a long way in dealing with limits. I'm submissive, but that doesn't mean that when I am with a Dominant that my limits suddenly disappear. If someone cant respect my limits, well they just proved they cant respect me.

That being said, a couple of friends of mine have helped me explore what "used to be" hard limits. They didn't push me or anything. Just offered me a safe enviorement to try it with friends. Needles, staples, and public play are no longer limits of any sort.

_____________________________

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:50:52 AM

AbsitInvidia

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Joined: 11/23/2007
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What makes you so certain that to the submissive in question, ignoring him or her wouldn't cause,a s you put it, 'extreme emotional distress?'

I wonder why you feel the need to question anyone's hard limits besides the person who is submitting to you. A lot of what limits fall where is simply a matter of compatibility. I feel that everyone has a responsibility to themselves to hold out for a satisfying, fulfilling relationship rather than just settle for anyone who has a couple things in common with them. For you, that means not being with a submissive who has limits that you find trivial. For the submissive in question, it means not being with someone who finds their limits trivial.

And finally...a submissive can set his or her hard limits wherever he or she wants. A submissive is not a slave who has surrendered his or her will completely - a submissive is actively engaging in the act of submission. A submissive can say anal sex is a hard limit simply because that is something they refuse to do. For whatever reason. And if you want to be with that submissive, you have to respect that. Being a Dominant doesn't give one license to be a rapist simply because they think "oh well that limit is stupid anyway."

_____________________________

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What most people call rights are merely social norms, they are expectations - but expectations can and will be violated on a daily basis. On her knees. In the mud. Hard, and savagely. Expectations likes it like that.

(in reply to pinakorbacs)

Post #: 7

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:58:08 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Limits are things that are off limits for that relationship at that time.

If I play casually with someone, sex might be a limit, or someone may say that humiliation is okay but I can't call her a whore because that is linked to some childhood issue.

The goal of limits is to provide a space for submissives to set healthy and CLEAR boundaries to keep themselves psychologically and to a lesser extent, physically safe. They are also a tool one can use to limit/structure what you are offering to someone.

I edited this to add, in the real world we expect submissives to be fully functioning adults who are responsible for themselves. Understanding their own needs, creating and defending boundaries/lmits is a crucial part of that self care.

I agree with this post, once in a relationship, that is what limits are for.

My earlier response was to why someone may list certain things when getting to know someone before they have a relationship

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 8

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 7:01:12 AM

DarkDaddyZ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Limits are things that are off limits for that relationship at that time.

If I play casually with someone, sex might be a limit, or someone may say that humiliation is okay but I can't call her a whore because that is linked to some childhood issue.

The goal of limits is to provide a space for submissives to set healthy and CLEAR boundaries to keep themselves psychologically and to a lesser extent, physically safe. They are also a tool one can use to limit/structure what you are offering to someone.

I edited this to add, in the real world we expect submissives to be fully functioning adults who are responsible for themselves. Understanding their own needs, creating and defending boundaries/lmits is a crucial part of that self care.

I have to agree with this. Still, the term hard limits for me with negotiation doesn't mean no, ever. I would clarify in the beginning of a relationship about all limits. As far as casual play, I'd want to know what is okay to do and what is never okay to do and I'd want them to know the same from me. Sometimes we forget that tops also have a list of things that they aren't interested in.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 9

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 7:02:49 AM

DesFIP

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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Abandonment may be a deep seated terror for some due to early abuse and mistreatment. What you see as a minor thing, ignoring someone, may be their worst nightmare.

As far as a legitimate hard limit, anything a sub needs to limit, no matter how silly it seems to you, is legitimate. There's a thread floating around on crazy hard limits. Some of us have weird ones. Myself, duct tape on skin, especially as a gag. You would be surprised (I hope) by the number of men who zeroed in on that one item and said their first order of business would be to do that to me. WTF?

The first thing they propose to do is prove themselves untrustworthy and ensure I would never speak to them again? If you love duct tape gags, then I wouldn't be compatible with you. That's all there is to it. Now if we appeared to be soul mates in every other way, you would be excused for inquiring as to my reason for this limit. Of course, if it were due to an abusive past, I would be excused for saying you hadn't earned enough trust to learn that yet.

As it happens, I get panic attacks from that one gag. I'm fine with ball gags and other kinds as long as I can breathe through my mouth if due to other activities my nose blocks up. But duct tape gives me panic attacks and that's all there is to it. However, I don't owe any stranger an explanation of this and to all those who wrote saying they wouldn't honor my hard limit, I didn't give one.

I did give it to The Man but not on day one. We started out just talking. We became friends and some point along the way he did admit to curiosity about this. And at that point, I explained it.

My limits are my own and nobody else has the right to tell me what will or will not cause me distress.

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Post #: 10

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 7:55:47 AM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

Some of us have weird ones. Myself, duct tape on skin, especially as a gag. You would be surprised (I hope) by the number of men who zeroed in on that one item and said their first order of business would be to do that to me. WTF?

I agree that anyone who opens up a conversation with that is an idiot. However, I would bet that in a long term nurturing relationship with a skilled dominant that you could work through, given a lot of time, that limit. Whether you do or not isn't important but it would be liberating to do so.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 11

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:04:40 AM

Vanatru

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oh yeah, definitely, DD

(in reply to DarkDaddyZ)

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:11:38 AM

Missokyst

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Joined: 9/9/2006
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I have hard limits which will only be crossed if someone is prepared for a violent result.
I do not regard relationship issues such as being ignored, over indulging in sports television, or being either too conservative or too liberal, a limit.
For me those things are relationship issues that I observe before I start seeing someone.
Call me nuts, but I still put the horse before the cart.
Kyst

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to pinakorbacs)

Post #: 13

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:14:48 AM

Vanatru

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DesFIP: extremely important points. There's a whole plethera of possible limits from things that can't be controlled. Panic attack is a good limiter... though I find sometimes such areas can be improved and the response modified. All of that falls under things to be talked about. And you're right, pushing limits when you don't even know the person doesn't make sense.

(in reply to Vanatru)

Post #: 14

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:16:41 AM

CuriousLord

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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Hard limits are things a submissive can't be compelled to or/and couldn't stand. So, yeah, if they really don't want to be ignored, and you agree that's a hard limit, that would be your business.

And, yes, hard limits (or any limits for this matter) are deviations from submission. But, oh well. Submissives are human, too, not necessarily born just to serve, even if they want to as an aspect of their life.

(in reply to pinakorbacs)

Post #: 15

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:42:02 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Limits are things that are off limits for that relationship at that time.

If I play casually with someone, sex might be a limit, or someone may say that humiliation is okay but I can't call her a whore because that is linked to some childhood issue.

The goal of limits is to provide a space for submissives to set healthy and CLEAR boundaries to keep themselves psychologically and to a lesser extent, physically safe. They are also a tool one can use to limit/structure what you are offering to someone.

I edited this to add, in the real world we expect submissives to be fully functioning adults who are responsible for themselves. Understanding their own needs, creating and defending boundaries/lmits is a crucial part of that self care.

I guess I am going to be a copy cat and quote this great post.

A hard limit can be anything in the world a person calls a hard limit. For example, I have a hard limit of being allowed to work and that it is in my chosen profession.

If a person has a hard limit(s) that are too intrusive to the other person it has nothing to do with negating the substance of submission. It just means the two people are not compatible. If a person has a ton of hard limits does not mean they are not submissive or cannot be in a power exchange relationship. It just means they are not compatible with a person who needs few limits from a submissive.

It is literally as simple as what works for two people and those two people can call their relationship whatever they feel like.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 16

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 9:46:12 AM

xAdamx

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lmao..l find the word legitimate a strange word, because there is no where l know in the western world is it legitimate to crop the ass of anyone, neither is it consensual.

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 9:49:04 AM

YourhandMyAss

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From: Sacramento
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I think you're intittled to your opinion, but I'll put what ever limit I feel is needed in place for my relationship, regardless of what any one else thinks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs

IMHO such an interpretation negates the very substance of the concept of submission. What others think on this?

(in reply to pinakorbacs)

Post #: 18

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 9:51:15 AM

slaverosebeauty

Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
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I have hard & soft limits; some are determined by medical conditions and if certain things are involved then I can die, so those are definatly limits; others are things that make me quiver or that I have had bad experiences with or don't have enough experience with to feel comfortable doing or participating in.

When someone says they don't have limits that is a scarry thing, since it's not possible to have no limits; as for things not being 'mainstream' for limits, that's up to those invovled. If 'don't ignore me' is a limit then so be it. If it's agreed on, then it stands.

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 9:58:35 AM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

Some of us have weird ones. Myself, duct tape on skin, especially as a gag. You would be surprised (I hope) by the number of men who zeroed in on that one item and said their first order of business would be to do that to me. WTF?

I agree that anyone who opens up a conversation with that is an idiot. However, I would bet that in a long term nurturing relationship with a skilled dominant that you could work through, given a lot of time, that limit. Whether you do or not isn't important but it would be liberating to do so.

Actually, no. The very mention of it starts me panicking, hyperventilating, crying at which point I can't breathe through my nose so I would be suffocating for real. This one is to stay.

Other things we have worked out how close we can go. It's taken four years of every six months or so being tied to a pole to discover I panic if my head is tied but not if it isn't. Makes no sense to me, but there's no time to work through something when you're suffering from panic attacks. It's an instantaneous thing.

And if my therapist hasn't been able to stop them, I doubt he can. In fact, he's smart enough to know that he could make things a lot worse because he isn't a trained professional. I'm using panic attack in a clinical sense, I suffer from generalized anxiety disorder.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 20

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