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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:03:02 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		This is a good reason why what?

If you compared both groups economically, the single white female bunch would fair better than the other groups... want to know why? Because they have more access to education, jobs, and cultural capital, that is why...

And another thing, it is very hard to build families when historically speaking there were things that happened to your community that did not lend themselves to monogamous lifelong relationships with an involved man on the scene... historically slavery set up the situation in which Black men were not in the position to be "responsible" fathers... not to mention that socio economically it has been harder to establish one's self in a job that one can afford to care for a family. The sex drive being what it is, people make the babies anyways... and if you think that is "wrong", well people make babies no matter what, it is called the biological imperative.

Now seeing that schools are funded at the local level by property taxes, the schools in certain areas are way underfunded... it is pretty damn hard to break out of that environment. If you aren't raised knowing how to get a good job, an education, and you know absolutely no one to help you advance... it probably is going to be pretty darn hard for you to do so... especially for the person of average intellect.

If you do not think so, well strip yourself of all your connections.. take your cell phone, your car, your education.. and we will drop you in East LA, tell you to make your own way out... but just to make it interesting... if you do manage to get out, we will add cops to harass you where ever you go to boot.

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:07:17 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Black or African American

65%


65%?!  This means to say that almost two out of every three black kids doesn't have two parents to raise them?!  Holy hell..

That's.. just so.. wow.

American Indians have less than one out of every two.. a far superior (even if still disturbing) figure..

Hispanic/Lation's.. that's not much more than 1 out of every 3..

White.. that's less than out of every four..

Asian/Pacific's less than one out of five...


But, since this subject seems to have been with regards to white and black culture.. that's shocking!   23% and 65% may look a great bit different, but they're not scalars.. they're proportions..  Culturally, that difference is.. I'm reluctant to use "astronomical", but that may be a slight exagerration.



Okay.. rant off.  Time to get some sleep.  Just.. wow, doesn't anyone find that a little out there?

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:14:36 PM   
NaiveTempest


Posts: 345
Joined: 11/20/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Just because there is no father in a child's life doesn't make them commit a crime. You can't look at a child and say "Yup, he's gonna be a criminal." I do believe it's important to have a father figure in a child's life though. But there are child out there with both parents who steal, break the law, moleste, kill, shoot bunches of people for no reason, etc....Black on black crime is sad yes, but it's not the only crime. White on white, latino on latino, etc it ALL happens.

And as far as statistics go..... When reading them do people take into account the size of each populous? What is the ratio of whites to hispanics to blacks to Amer. Indians to Asians? So then what are the actual numbers of single parent homes, not just the percentage? I read statistics with a large grain of salt. People pull them out when it works for them, and ignore them when it doesn't.

PS. - If one looks at that lovely article with it's percentages don't forget to read the line at the bottom that states this: "Single-parent families may include cohabiting couples ........." My aunt and uncle were together for 20 years and had 3 kids before they married. So you can count them as part of that statistic; so then do they fit with societies idea of what a single-parent family is made up of? Changes things a bit to my way of thinking.

< Message edited by NaiveTempest -- 12/11/2007 10:23:34 PM >

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:23:32 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I get a kick out of these stats because the way that Whites are treated by law enforcement and the justice system is drastically different than what Blacks experiece. The crime of having a bag of cocaine carries a lot less of a penalty tha crack cocaine... I wonder if they came down as hard on the Ken Lays of this world if the prisons would be filled with Whites...

_____________________________

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:26:00 PM   
NaiveTempest


Posts: 345
Joined: 11/20/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I know a black female that got 14 years in prison for a bag of pot, where as a white male withmeth go 2 years. That made sense how?

_____________________________

"All the things I should have said that I never said/All the things we should have done that we never did/All the things I should have given, but I didn't.../Give me these moments back..."

Kate Bush, "This Woman's Work"

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:26:01 PM   
chickpea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Black or African American

65%


65%?!  This means to say that almost two out of every three black kids doesn't have two parents to raise them?!  Holy hell..

That's.. just so.. wow.

American Indians have less than one out of every two.. a far superior (even if still disturbing) figure..

Hispanic/Lation's.. that's not much more than 1 out of every 3..

White.. that's less than out of every four..

Asian/Pacific's less than one out of five...


But, since this subject seems to have been with regards to white and black culture.. that's shocking!   23% and 65% may look a great bit different, but they're not scalars.. they're proportions..  Culturally, that difference is.. I'm reluctant to use "astronomical", but that may be a slight exagerration.



Okay.. rant off.  Time to get some sleep.  Just.. wow, doesn't anyone find that a little out there?


That's too general comparing race groups with just sheer numbers.  For example, the hispanic or Indian culture may have more close knit family ties due to the history of their culture, than whites or blacks.  So if they don' have two parents, maybe they have two aunts an extra uncle and grandparents there as well.  But I guess you need to start somewhere in trying to study cultural differences or end certain social problems with these with funded studies using statistical surveys.  But my point is that numbers are only a good starting point.  Statistics can be skewed by the number of people taking the survey, what groups tended to be part of the survey, and how the questions were asked to the survey participants, and was there enough survey participants to make a good generalization.  So, right then, the numbers can be off...  Then there's so much more beyond just the numbers with the cultures and other factors influencing quality of family life involved...that this survey completely ignores.

Not that I'm saying that the survey is wrong.  But if you're after truth, these numbers may be misleading. 

< Message edited by chickpea -- 12/11/2007 10:35:51 PM >

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:29:10 PM   
Dominatist


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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/11/2007 10:36:27 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		As I read the actual study criteria it's a bit confusing how they determined race at all:

"On the ACS, the question regarding whether a person is Hispanic is separate from the question asking whether a person is white, black, Asian or Pacific Islander, or American Indian. Thus, people are asked to indicate whether they are of Hispanic origin and then in a separate question are asked to select a racial group. A respondent can identify more than one race group. Race/ethnic groups represented in this table are not mutually exclusive. The category of white includes only non-Hispanic white. The categories Black or African American, American Indian, and Asian and Pacific Islander include both Hispanic and non-Hispanic. Those in the Hispanic or Latino category include those identified as being in one of the non-White race groups.
Single-parent families may include cohabiting couples ..."

and it includes "co-habitating couples".  So societies/cultures that don't favor marriage as much are going to get defined as single parent households, which seems a bit off to me. 

I'm not sure it matters.  I'm sure the african american number would still be higher with a more current study (not using data from years 2000 and 2001) that had clearer definition of race and single parent child.  It's probably a true statement to say black males shouldn't leave their children.  Neither should anyone else, male, female or any color/race. 

As Julia states however, you can't look at statistics as though they exist in a vaccuum.  That 65% is pretty likely to have a much different life than others.  The native americans have totally different issues than the other groups.

The issue as I see it is this.  As human beings regardless of our color/religion/sex/race we need to help create a world where children born into poverty have the ability and desire to stay with their families and excel in life rather than merely getting by.  This is not a race issue.  Treating as such invites the attitude domiguy is talking about satirically, it's not me, it's not my race, why should I care?  This is an issue of what we can do as a society to help other members of our society succeed.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/11/2007 10:37:47 PM >

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 6:45:17 AM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Of course, agree with the Black guy that is not really a part of the community he critiques.... because he has as much idea of what is going on in the 'Hood as you do


Sorry that Bill Cosby isn't 'real' enough for you.
And the sad thing is, you'll never realize how much more that says about you than it does about him.



"He was born William Henry Cosby Junior, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on July 12, 1937. His welder father, William Senior, abandoned the family while Bill was still a child leaving the youngster to raise his younger brothers, Bob and Russell, while their mother Anne found work as a domestic. "
http://www.hellomagazine.com/profiles/billcosby/

"William Henry Cosby, Junior, was born in Germantown, Pennsylvania, July 12, 1937, to Anna and William Cosby. There were four boys in the family, but one died from rheumatic fever at six years old. Soon after the young boy's death, William Cosby, Sr., left his family and joined the Navy. Bill, the oldest son, became the man of the family and helped his mother pay the bills by doing odd jobs such as delivering groceries and shining shoes. He tried to keep up with his school work, but he dropped out of high school to join the Navy in the early 1950s. Cosby's mother had always stressed the importance of education to her children, and so eventually Bill earned his diploma through correspondence school and was accepted at Temple University in Philadelphia on an athletic scholarship."
http://www.bookrags.com/Bill_Cosby

"Cosby's son Ennis was shot to death in January 1997 after stopping to change a tire just off a Los Angeles freeway... The same year, a woman named Autumn Jackson was arrested after trying to extort $40 million from Cosby, claiming to be his illegitimate daughter. Cosby admitted to an affair with Jackson's mother but denied fathering Jackson. She was convicted of extortion and sentenced to 26 months in jail... "
http://www.who2.com/billcosby.html


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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 7:33:00 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'm not sure whether this whole thing is not a chicken and egg debate to which no satisfactory causality can be produced in the modern setting.

We have exactly the same situation in the UK as is mentioned here in the US. Absent fathers are to be found in every possible group one might like to determine, and an absent father (according to government statistics) is more likely to leave his offspring more vulnerable to getting caught up in criminal behaviour and low academic and socio-economic achievement. Whilst it would be entirely inaccurate to say that this is a problem found only in Afro Caribbean communities, it is apparently more prevalent - but this means that we must look outside of ethnicity for any possible causal link.

And the causal link I believe to be present is low expectation from others, and low aspiration within the families concerned. It would be no lie and no slur whatever, to say that certain children are not expected to achieve in school and that certain groups do not value educational achievement. Again, there is no direct ethnic link to this, but I believe there is definitely a cultural relationship. In the UK for instance, we find that two groups stand out from the rest in these regards, and those groups are Muslims and Afro Caribbeans.

It is very easy to blame the people concerned who leave their families, but when they are raised with the expectation on them to not achieve and the expectation of their families and peers to conform to group standards - which latter are at odds with the majority culture in which they live, it is no surprise that some groups stand out in these terms.

The only solution really is to totally change cultural expectations - within the "problem" groups themselves but also and most importantly, to change the expectations of majority culture to no longer regard the failure of aspiration of these groups to achieve as something inherent to them.

E

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 7:37:04 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have lived in other neighborhoods than the one I inhabit today.. things change, and unless he has been living in the project in the last 30 or 40 years he knows as much about it as I do... and that is the way it is.

It is rather easy to lose touch, especially when one has never been in touch with the reality of gangs, inter ethnic conflicts, and police profiling... I stand by what I said

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 7:39:47 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		However difficult it may be  there is only one way that a disadvantaged group of any kind will improve their status and that is if they do it themselves.
No amount of social engineering or offering excuses based on historical misfortune will do any good at all.
adding: if political reform is required to help rectify the problem then that will not come from the disadvantaged groups but will require sympathy from members of the contemporary ruling class.

Even relatively wealthy rappers have been thought to have been involved in murderous activity
Not sure why but  at least extreme poverty couldn't have been the reason.
I dont recall Perry Como threatening to shoot Bing Crosby lol

Then I'm bad 'cos I say what is manifestly true. Many droopy drawed liberals just seem to find that difficult.
Doesn't Cosby say...lets start parenting ?

LadyEllen says that certain groups have a culture of non achievement. That actually is quite condescending in that say Afro Caribbean youth do want achieve and do so be being tough and "street smart".
Gets them nowhere tho'

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/12/2007 8:30:53 AM >

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 7:55:40 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		The city where I live has two major areas of social and racial disadvantage.
Expensive "pie in the sky" initiatives are launched with the intention of improving things.
10/15 years later the excercise is repeated, accompanied by the same old empty rhetoric.

This kind of thing happens everywhere and no one seems to notice.
At least those advocating and implementing the intiatives dont lol

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 9:15:45 AM   
ItalianSMistress


Posts: 427
Joined: 1/19/2007
From: Niagara Region Ontario Canada
Status: offline 		I have to be honest that I did not read the whole second page of this thread, I was just dying to get in here and say something.  I am so offended by the post that I dont know where to start.  This is clearly just racist.  My boy that lives with Me is Jamaican, and I dont know about the states, but here in Canada, esp close to Toronto, the level of crime associated with the Jamaican Community is way too high.  I hate it when people assume that My boy must sell drugs and shoots people for a living.  This is the same kind of idea.  Race has nothing to do with the single mothers.  The numbers can be changed around or even at a more in depth look may show other opinions or factors.  How many of those single mothers with black children are so because their childs father is in jail?  How many of those fathers really did not do anything more than "driving while black" but can not afford proper legal help to prove it?  Many years ago, I dated a black man from just across the border, every time we went across together we got pulled over.  Every single time.  Yet Me and My white girlfriends went over just as often, and I dont recall ever once the same thing.  This is more of a cultural problem than a race one.  In Jamaica, many times, its the mother that lives the children with the father in a quest for a better life for herself, and this is not even always viewed as bad.  My boy has legal custody of his child from his previous relationship, as does many of My male friends.  Also, just in My circle of friends, more than half of My white female friends have white children and are single mothers with little to no help from the fathers.  I think I only have one friend with a black child that is single, now I know this is only a small percent of the population, but this is My experience.  My boy is a wonderful parent, not only to our son and My step son, but we also raise My ex wifes daughter.

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 9:40:45 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Black or African American

65%


65%?!  This means to say that almost two out of every three black kids doesn't have two parents to raise them?!  Holy hell..

That's.. just so.. wow.

American Indians have less than one out of every two.. a far superior (even if still disturbing) figure..

Hispanic/Lation's.. that's not much more than 1 out of every 3..

White.. that's less than out of every four..

Asian/Pacific's less than one out of five...


But, since this subject seems to have been with regards to white and black culture.. that's shocking!   23% and 65% may look a great bit different, but they're not scalars.. they're proportions..  Culturally, that difference is.. I'm reluctant to use "astronomical", but that may be a slight exagerration.



Okay.. rant off.  Time to get some sleep.  Just.. wow, doesn't anyone find that a little out there?


I think it would be just as interesting to know what the figures were 200 years ago for the blacks in Africa, the Mexicans in Mexico, and the Native Indians here in what is now the USA... before the Anglo-Saxon influence.

Seems to me... all that really seperates any of us is education, economics, and skin pigmentation.


< Message edited by subfever -- 12/12/2007 9:43:59 AM >

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 9:46:19 AM   
greyarcher315


Posts: 99
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		  First, let me say there is no easy solution to this problem. Second, the problem is not with blacks per se, its with the culture that has developed among them. Put anyone of any race in that culture, and most times you will get the same results as you see with the black community. For whatever reason, Young blacks are learning that it is normal to have multiple children by multiple partners, and have them at a young age. They end up relying on the welfare system, drop out of school to take care of their kids, and then have no job prospects because they have no education or training.  A no snitching mentality keeps police from tracking down criminals, which just degrades the neighborhoods further.  A large number of black males will end up in prison or dead at a young age. They are locked into a downward spriral, and unless something happens to change directions, nothing will improve. Until someone starts teaching the young kids some discipline and control, so that they don't kill each other off or start families without being ready to raise them, nothing can change. There really needs to be a leader that will step foward who everyone will listen to, and those are rare. (trust me, Jesse Jackson And Al Sharpton are  not it).

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 10:19:32 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

However difficult it may be  there is only one way that a disadvantaged group of any kind will improve their status and that is if they do it themselves.
No amount of social engineering or offering excuses based on historical misfortune will do any good at all.
adding: if political reform is required to help rectify the problem then that will not come from the disadvantaged groups but will require sympathy from members of the contemporary ruling class.



I very much agree with this statement...but I would have used different words than sympathy and ruling class. There needs to be political will to enforce existing laws... the laws are good ones and in place.

I truly believe Black America needs to stop looking back…not forget…but stop looking for racism at every personal setback and move forward. If racism is encountered then pursue recourse in the courts not the streets.

I think rather then marching in circles in front of the police station with placards I would sue the hell out of the racist bum in the courts…hurt them where it really makes a difference in the wallet.

I don’t think people can be made to like anyone…even if by race…but they CAN be made to respect everyone’s rights.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/12/2007 10:23:24 AM >

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 10:59:51 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"None but ourselves can free our minds"  is pretty much a universal truth. 

All men and women need to take responsibility, that is basically the solution to everything. 

We could have any revolution or evolution or solution of politics, and if its still the same people, nothing will be fixed. 

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 2:45:08 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I like to point out that I hate "black" culture, something I'm all too often frustrated by its confusion with black people.  (This notion that one must act a certain way to be part of his own race.)  I do wonder how much it affects people.

I'm not used to seeing cliches and segration.. grew up in a rather affluent community where I think social issues fall to the wayside (and, let's be honest, better education and generally nicer people).

Now, I'm at a public univerisity.  I've noticed an odd trend.  When I go to the dinner here, there's typically a bunch of tables pushed together by a group of black individuals.  They're typically loud, close together, and chatty.  Honestly, they strike me as feminine in such a respect, looking for conformity of the group to lead them.  They strike me as submissive pack animals.



When I was younger and attending college I noticed that many of the math, computer majors and their ilk would always seem to gather together whether they were dining or studying in the library....No matter the time of year they always seemed rather pasty as if there skin had never been exposed to the Sun. Their gaze seldom left their books or tables, perhaps they were afraid of their surroundings, afraid to make contact and be forced to actually partake in a conversation or maybe it was all the beatings they were forced to endure earlier in life that might have caused this odd behavior.

They would speak in hushed tones....Their movements always struck me as resembling a sort of an androgynous, cave dwelling being that had been deprived of all social and human contact.

As much as I was sickened by their appearance and mannerisms...When in their presence, I still managed to muster a healthy amount of pity.

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RE: Black Men Must Take Responsibility - 12/12/2007 3:08:53 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I get a kick out of these stats because the way that Whites are treated by law enforcement and the justice system is drastically different than what Blacks experiece. The crime of having a bag of cocaine carries a lot less of a penalty tha crack cocaine... I wonder if they came down as hard on the Ken Lays of this world if the prisons would be filled with Whites...


Its got nothing to do with colour. Crack is seen as more addictive so it carries a heavier penalty. If you are charged with carrying crack, you face the same possible sentances.

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