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RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 6:41:48 PM

Leatherist

Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I wonder if they have one of those decoder rings.. those were cool.
Kyst

I wonder if you have to take a secret oath like the masons. And like, go to secret meetings and wear a cool costume with like-a cobalt blue cape...... and then the slaves all dance around and no-wait, that's just Gor.

never mind.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 121

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 6:46:19 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterlink65

wow i never knew i had my retina scanned.

nice to know you have seen it all and have no doubt something cannot exist without your knowledge of it.

do you know where satanists have secret meetings and ceremonies too then? or is that just another hoax?

See, there is a legally registered religious organization called The Church of Satan -- so that would be a starting place to see if such a thing existed.

However, belief is not the same as proof. Proof requires hard evidence.

In an age of easily manipulated photographs and a role players who put a lot of time into their fantasy pursuits, hard evidence requires high standards.

Why does it matter to you what others think? Why can't your beliefs be enough for you? Why do you want to talk about secretive societies? Are you sure they'd be happy with you speaking about them?

For one piece of evidence about such underground "SM" (note the " " folks) some of you might want to read V.M. Johnson's book "To Love, To Obey, To Serve". Let me warn you that it may scare the crap out of you. Having spoken with her I know that she believes she took a huge risk to write this book and get it published but that she felt it was necessary to explain what can happen as a warning to others.

Now she is not talking about "European Houses" but she claims to give insight into what kink was like before SSC or RACK. As a historian I have a lot of questions about what she writes for it is merely one piece of information that claims to be a first hand account.

Not in specific reference to Ms. Johnson, whom I respect greatly, but as an author I know that I could write something amazing and claim it was a first hand experience. One piece of evidence is never enough to prove something.

Until such secret societies come out into the light either through their own choice or by being targeted by others, usually people with some social authority, any belief in them is merely belief.

As I have said numerous time here and elsewhere: A historical claim for BDSM is unnecessary. To find evidence and document the past is a very worth while pursue but the drive to believe in some collective past without hard evidence benefits no one except those who might use the lure of this mysterious past for their own personal gain.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 122

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 6:48:41 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterlink65

maybe you should read befor you write.

i thought this was all consentual adult behavior, and i thought discussing illegal activity was not allowed on here.

my slaves are here voluntarily. and i believe that is what the OP is trying to suggest.

so quick to judge and ridicule others, but relunctant to look in the mirror h

I assure you, I have read every post, including this from you.

quote:

is it that farfetched that there may actually be a place for slaves to be trained, or labor camps? i know for a fact there is a place in cleveland ohio that my neighbor visits and pays good money for these sessions. i have seen the photos, and as mentioned in this thread, it took a sponsor to get him in there. but they will not be on youtube, because youtube will not accept that kind if video. and there still are some people who can actually keep a secret, believe it or not, and i am sure they do not want some busybody entereing thier secret society. i also know there are labor camps.

I never mentioned anything illegal, nor did I break the rules of TOS.

Unless you are saying you reside in this secret house in Cleveland, or your slaves were trained there, what do they have to do with the topic at hand? The OP is about a well known slave claiming knowledge of things for which she cannot or chooses not to provide proof.

I asked a question of you and received an accusation rather than an answer. I believe that you believe in such places. Me? I require substantiation and have yet to find it in your responses (or any other place for that matter.)

When I look in my mirror, I see a person who prefers facts over rumor, corroboration over innuendo. And I’m quite comfortable with that image.

< Message edited by catize -- 1/1/2008 6:56:06 PM >

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 123

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 6:54:05 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterlink65

maybe you should read befor you write.

i thought this was all consentual adult behavior, and i thought discussing illegal activity was not allowed on here.

my slaves are here voluntarily. and i believe that is what the OP is trying to suggest.

so quick to judge and ridicule others, but relunctant to look in the mirror huh?

So you are claiming that there are ancient houses of BDSM spanning back 1000s of years of unbroken family history with father handing the son the flogger... and we are just supposed to believe this because you say so?

I haven't been that much of a dupe since I went snipe hunting when I was 5... Here snipe snipe...

Sorry, I do not buy the ancient houses of BDSM....

Secret groups, sure, people get off on super secret groups that they can feel special to belong to..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 124

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:03:06 PM

SunnyTawse

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
Status: offline

(In answer to no one in particular...)

Well... you know... every once in a while there is an expose about some secret society that does kinky stuff, and it's all very scandalous.

I'm not sure where I stand on this matter of the ancient European houses of bdsm. Maybe they did (do?) exist and maybe they didn't (don't). A great Buddhist teacher some time ago answered a question about why a person should believe in the more esoteric mystical claims of Buddhism by saying something to this effect: "You may judge larger truths by the veracity of the smaller truths you know to be true. Have I told you the truth so far? Have you proven to yourself that what I've claimed is possible so far is actually possible?"

By that standard, CR may be correct; I've yet to see anything else I disagree with on the site.

I also met an older gentleman once who claimed to have been involved personally with one of these house. I reserve judgement on whether he did or did not. I didn't question him about the matter because I was too busy learning some amazing things from him. He didn't strike me as a braggart, but... <shrugs>... he could have been. But you know, most myths, like rumors, have a kernal of truth in them somewhere.

As for Athenor... we're quiet, and we have secrets all right. But we aren't a secret society in the same way the Knights Templar were. We have a couple events every year that are open to the kink public and every two years we announce who we've elected for new officers. But I do know of at least two underground groups that have been active in the Minneapolis area for over 15 years, and unless you know someone, you would not have any idea at least one of them existed. The other one... well... one of the members started blabbing about it a few years ago and now it's not quite so secret anymore. Of course, 15 years hardly compares to 200 or 2000 years.

I'm skeptical. It's my nature to be skeptical. It's my nature to be secretive. It's also my nature to be drawn to things that are secretive.

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina
Archon of Rings, Athenor Lodge
http://Athenor Lodge.com

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 125

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:06:58 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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I think its entirely reasonable to doubt the existence of such "ancient houses" who have somehow managed to remain entirely secret. The odds are simply against it. I find it even more interesting to note how persistent the stories remain, how many seem to very much want such "ancient houses" to exist... despite the absense of any proof of such. I think that is a far more interesting subject to examine. If someone wants to believe they do, that's fine with me, their belief doesn't really affect me either way. I may find it interesting to examine why some wish to believe as they do, but that's about as far as it goes.

As for myself, frankly I don't care whether they exist or not. Let me put it this way, suppose some of these "ancient houses" actually do exist... what difference does that make to me, what do they have to offer me? Most likely it would make no difference to me, I'm not part of their secret club and therefore their existence has no bearing on my life at all. Okay, suppose they read some of my essays and thought,"Hey, that Pad's a really froody guy who knows where his towel is... let's recruit him!" My first response would be,"Yeah, that's nice, what's in it for me?" I suspect their recruitment drive would end there.

See, here's the thing... they probably don't have much of anything to offer me. Secret training methods? Not likely that any such methods would including anything I either don't already know or can't learn on my own anyway. I could care less about their secret protocols, positions, etc. so the only real secret training knowledge comes down to behavior modification... and on that subject I already have a wealth of information (as could anyone who cared to do their own research). Just recently we discussed the application of part of J W Brehm's theory of reactance to submissives, and that's hardly the first time such things have been discussed openly here on these forums. The work of Alfred Adler, Carl Rogers, Pavlov, Julian Rotter, to name a few have all been discussed on these forums and others... and those are just the ones I recall off the top of my head. My point being, someone willing to educate themselves and adapt the wealth of information already out there could very well match any knowledge an "ancient house" might possess.

So maybe this "ancient house" has slaves available. Okay, now that's a tangible commodity to offer that might actually be worth something. But, then I'd have to ask where these "slaves" came from? How were they trained? Does any of that fit with what I want? I'd be a bit miffed if there were anything unethical involved (yes, that sort of slavery does happen, but generally the only "ancient house" involved with that is some form of organized crime). I also doubt that some such group could produce a slave trained to my specifications chiefly because we may not share the same ideas of what a slave should be. So even if they were to bestow upon me two or three beautiful slaves just cause they think I'm a really froody guy... I'd be wondering how much time I was going to have to spend retraining those slaves to suit me. Ah well... then again maybe you shouldn't look a gift slave in the mouth

But I somehow doubt if such a group did exist that they'd give me some hot nubile young slaves for free... so they'd want something... and that raises the question of what I, or any of you, have to offer in the bargain? My guess is, probably not much other than money... and for probably 99% of you dominants reading this, there endeth that fantasy.

Do private, non-public, semi-secret organizations and clubs exist... absolutely. Are they European? Well, some of them are, some of them are American, some are Asian... pretty much anywhere people get into sharing their kink. Are they "ancient" dating back hundreds or thousands of years? I've never encountered one nor seen any evidence of one. The few semi-secret organizations I have encountered over the years were all modern institutions, none had a history older than 50 years or so. Do these organizations have special knowledge regarding training, managing and maintaining households, etc.... sure, but none of it is anything that a clever individual couldn't replicate on their own.

So, to sum up, whether such ancient houses exist or not is a moot point for me. I personally find it very unlikely. But either way it doesn't really make much difference to me... I'm doing just fine on my own and don't have any real use for such an organization. But hey, if such ancient houses do exists... I do happen to have a wealth of very specialized knowledge I'd be willing to share... for a price.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 126

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:15:47 PM

EvilGenie

Posts: 1323
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Morocco and Maine occasionally
Status: offline

~FR~
I don't know anything about the 2000 years but I do know something about something. When I lived in the UK I became friends with a 70 year old Dominant gentleman known throughout large portions of the UK who introduced me to an old ''training school'' (school for lack of a better term) there, mainly for Dominants. He escorted me to one in York where I was met, interviewed and began ''Master of the Cane'' training which I completed. This was a medieval building along a narrow street in the old city where the gates and walls still remain. So, I do know that old, how old I am not sure, training ''schools'' do exist but as for the family houses deal I never heard talk of them when I lived in the UK.

Oh and julia, yes I do remember jade's essay on her training.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 127

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:25:00 PM

masterlink65

Posts: 683
Joined: 11/3/2007
Status: offline

i cannot speak for the ages of these houses. all i know is my neighbor has gone to cleveland on several occassions, he has shown me 4 polaroid photos, not doctored by a PC. i know nothing of these european houses you are speaking of, but i do know there are camps and houses. but most on here are in it for the scene, and have little knowledge, when they claim to have a world of knowledge unsurpassed by others.

and i doubt churchofsatan.com is going to list ritual killing times. church bulletin, we will slay the rabbits at noon on monday, and the turtle at midnight tues. bring dish to pass.

my neighbor is not one to lie, brag, or story tell. i have seen the marks he has recieved, as well as other things to make me believe something out there does exist. do i really care, not too much, but for people to shoot down ideas they really know nothing about is well,,,, shallow

personally, i have no need for these places, as i trane my slaves to my personal needs. although i would not be opposed to interviewing a slave that has been trained by such a place. there are such things as pro doms and dommes. and someone did trane slaves back in the day.

if you are a mere bottom or sub, why would you know about these things anyway, you have no reason to. there are alot of secret societies that exist, but very little is known about them. oh ,,, you tops and doms never heard of it,,, it must not exist then. if you do not have a slave, or are not going to be trained as a slave, why would you even begin to think such a place would exist?

you are better off with blinders on and being jaded into your beliefs arent you? or perhaps miniturised by the thought of something greater or bigger than you out there?

(in reply to SunnyTawse)

Post #: 128

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:25:55 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I do not believe in ritual killings either.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 129

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:37:54 PM

masterlink65

Posts: 683
Joined: 11/3/2007
Status: offline

ritual killings do happen. you ever hear of richard ramirez? he was the night stalker in CA he performed many ritual human sacrifices.

he also had a good time smoking heavy drugs, and listening to black metal

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 130

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:38:29 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Okay, suppose they read some of my essays and thought,"Hey, that Pad's a really froody guy who knows where his towel is... let's recruit him!"

Rule #1
The ancient houses will teach you that a ‘froody dom’ NEVER knows where his towel is………that’s the slave’s job!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 131

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:39:15 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterlink65

ritual killings do happen. you ever hear of richard ramirez? he was the night stalker in CA he performed many ritual human sacrifices.

he also had a good time smoking heavy drugs, and listening to black metal

These are isolated nutbags, not some ritualistic religious super secret society... which is what your post seems to infer.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 132

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:48:39 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

We have I believe, along the edges of this blessed isle, now known as the UK, the last vestiges of travellers' paths and romany trecks. From Cornwall, through Wales (which still contains a root language unknown anywhere else in the World) the vestiges of traditions taken up into the beautiful expanses of the Cumbrian mounatins, as ancient as the earth itself. We have celtic Crosses, and Henges and houses made around one tree beam that stand on deeply hidden watered lay lines, and cathedrals hand crafted by stone masons who were the first enabled to embelish stone with an enscribed word. We have the roots of both personal and social slavery hammered and kiln blasted, burned into the very structure of our society and are perfectly capable of melding the universal conscousness of visionary foresight with the most blatant of urban reality, where sex meets rock and roll and yes: secert handshakes, tribal heritage and both women and men kept as chattel are not that far from living memory through tell-tales told at night.
There are houses here, not so secret, which are used as hospices and are perhaps now museums or places of worship where the walls talk to those who can hear them and shadows walk through those walls even for the sane. We also have hospitals where, unfortuneately, the radiators talk to those in need of medication.
How is any of this connected to Secret Houses or bdsm?......I will never tell but that is not to say I do not know.
Neither am I a dedicated follower of fiction but there is more here than meets the naked eye.........
is this thread now dead??

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 133

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 7:52:37 PM

masterlink65

Posts: 683
Joined: 11/3/2007
Status: offline

the point i am trying to get across is:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
there are many things in this world that go on without our knowledge.

if you want to walk around life with blinders on, go right ahead. dont blame me when you get hit on your blind side

was the manson family and isloated nutcase.? there are lots of things going on in an organised manner that we have absolutely no idea they happen.

we never knew about david koresh and the branch dividians until our government destroyed thier compound. to say you know everything (generalisation, not singling anyone person out)is like when i see expert next to topics in a profile. it means to me you would tend to think higher of yourself than most others think of you. experts often times fall short to me, after all, saying you are an expert tells me you believe you have learned it all and there is nothing more to learn. to me life has turned out to be a never ending learning process. i consider myself to be good at what i do, but do i claim to be an expert? hell no, i do like to leave myself some room for error and room for growth.

juliaoceania,,, i have noticed you spend alot of time trying to belittle, and criticise anything i have to say, a bit juvinille, but if it works for you , by all means, carry on as you were.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 134

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 8:23:22 PM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterlink65

the point i am trying to get across is:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
there are many things in this world that go on without our knowledge.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, Columbo.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 135

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 8:29:31 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

was the manson family and isloated nutcase.? there are lots of things going on in an organised manner that we have absolutely no idea they happen.

Those were not ritual killings, those were slaughters, and they were not done over an extended period of time to worship satan or some other god, they were done in order to start a race war...

quote:

we never knew about david koresh and the branch dividians until our government destroyed thier compound. to say you know everything (generalisation, not singling anyone person out)is like when i see expert next to topics in a profile. it means to me you would tend to think higher of yourself than most others think of you. experts often times fall short to me, after all, saying you are an expert tells me you believe you have learned it all and there is nothing more to learn. to me life has turned out to be a never ending learning process. i consider myself to be good at what i do, but do i claim to be an expert? hell no, i do like to leave myself some room for error and room for growth.

They did not commit sacrifiial murders either.

quote:

juliaoceania,,, i have noticed you spend alot of time trying to belittle, and criticise anything i have to say, a bit juvinille, but if it works for you , by all means, carry on as you were.

I have often passed your posts by with no comment at all, I believe this is the second thread on which I have had a disagreement with you, and I have not belittled you as a person, just not agreed with your point of view... there is a difference. I am not attempting to belittle you.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 136

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 8:34:50 PM

SunnyTawse

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/17/2004
Status: offline

Were you addressing me, masterlink65? If so, it would seem a bit odd, as I'm one who says such places may exist.

(And, I might add, you'd be the first person to ever mistake me for a sub or bottom...

)

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 137

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 8:36:23 PM

masterlink65

Posts: 683
Joined: 11/3/2007
Status: offline

seeems like you go out of your way to take things i say out of context.

like the part about dave koresh. i used that as an example of something going on we didnt know aboutm thus it beiung a secret, but you decided to turn it into something like, they did not commit sacrificial murders. i didnt say they did, i was just pointing out an instance in our immediate history that went on without notice until it was brought to our attention by the news.

and you also went out of the way to make sure i knew what charlie had intended for his plot. he intended to start a race war, how? by performing his ritual murder, and what does time periods have to do with ritual? are you only here to argue?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 138

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 8:58:58 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

and you also went out of the way to make sure i knew what charlie had intended for his plot. he intended to start a race war, how? by performing his ritual murder, and what does time periods have to do with ritual? are you only here to argue?

I have read about Manson and seen documentaries... it is the prosecutor in this case that stated this..

Here is the link

http://crime.about.com/od/history/p/krnwnkl.htm

quote:

jumpstarting the Race War: Manson prophesized that the Beatles song "Helter Skelter" signaled the beginnings of a racial war of blacks against whites. Manson and his family would take refuge beneath Death Valley and when the war was over and the blacks were in power, they would come to Manson to lead the new nation. There were obvious problems with Manson's vision, but the biggest problem was that the race war wasn't happening fast enough. He decided that the blacks needed to be shown how to get things going.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to masterlink65)

Post #: 139

RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training - 1/1/2008 9:05:26 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SunnyTawse

Were you addressing me, masterlink65? If so, it would seem a bit odd, as I'm one who says such places may exist.

(And, I might add, you'd be the first person to ever mistake me for a sub or bottom... )

Sunny Tawse
Sadien Domina

Respectfully I would never mistake you as such....

He can't or he won't let it drop..........

I am so grateful for the emotional luxury of laughter that such dogmatism creates.....

Prinsexx
.

(in reply to SunnyTawse)

Post #: 140

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