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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 8:31:40 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I always find it amusing that people form subcultures about non conformity-and then conform to them.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 8:34:21 AM   
max2rime


Posts: 6
Status: offline 		Isn't Hot Topic owned by the same company as the Gap?

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 8:53:44 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

i am goth and i also into BDSM. i begun wearing collars when rather young, not becouse i wanted to imitate BDSM. i did not know what BDSM was but becouse i wanted to freak out my mother. Goths often like the darker side of things, that be vampires and other things that go bump in the night or prisoners from some bygone dungeon. BDSM do not have copyright on collars. Yes collars have a special meaning for BDSM pepole Goreans and similar lifestylers, but to many Goths it is simply a article of fashion jewelery. It is the same as a cross yes? To a Christian person it is a powerful symbol, but for many others a cross pendant is just a pretty bauble and to me, both are fine.

i wish you all well.



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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 9:39:32 AM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline 		Hate to break it to you, but the kink culture doesn't have a monopoly on collars and corsets.  Both have been around far longer than BDSM and Goths often take their cues from the eras that originated both.  If it annoys you, get over it.  I doubt you'll find many Goths critcizing you for your wardrobe choices.  Even if we don't "get" you either.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 11:00:12 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

I doubt you'll find many Goths critcizing you for your wardrobe choices.  Even if we don't "get" you either.


i don't know about you but i have met plenty of goths that take grate pleasure in critiquing others wardrobe choices. One can even say some goths have that a a treasured hobby. :P

i wish you well




_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 11:10:42 AM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

quote:

I doubt you'll find many Goths critcizing you for your wardrobe choices.  Even if we don't "get" you either.


i don't know about you but i have met plenty of goths that take grate pleasure in critiquing others wardrobe choices. One can even say some goths have that a a treasured hobby. :P

i wish you well


In my experience, we critcize each other's wardrobes more than we critcize outsiders' clothing.  The whole point of Goth is being yourself, regardless of what mainstream socieity thinks.  Unless you shop at Hot Topic/Torrid.  Then you're a Mall Goth and it doesn't count. 
 
Of course, I'm old enough to be considered "old school" (whatever that means), and I've grown much more reclusive in my Elder Goth age.  Most of the people I ran with in my semi-misspent youth and I couldn't have cared less what the preps, jocks, or skaters were wearing as long as they left us alone.  I'll conceed things may be different now.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 12:33:58 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		~fr~ Sometimes they overlap most of the time they don't.  When The Chamber was open in Atlanta, we had a kinky friendly room.  The Chamber probably got up to 700, 800 patrons a night, maybe 40 to 50 came into the kinky room.  Though they all got into the theatrical aspect of SM on the mainstage.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:13:23 PM   
ThinkingKitten


Posts: 447
Joined: 6/15/2006
From: Ontari-ari-o
Status: offline 		Random notes here:
LA - so you're a "romantic" goth then - the lace and velvets n' stuff?
A quick trip to the Nightwish forum, or Tarja's new forums will show you how the debate still rages about who's goth amongst them. Personally I'd say neither. Cradle of Filfth... now thats a different story.
A "mall goth" ..... LOL, that's good.
No matter which way you cut it, goth is still just a sub-genre of heavy metal - and those dudes still have the bragging rights for black, silver and leather (except even some of that came from the earlier gay leather movement....).
 
And let's not forget the EMO's in there too, just to muddy the waters further.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:18:26 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		As far as wardrobe, I'm fairly straight laced...even when I was younger and my friends were fashionable in that monochrome sort of way. Of course, if you asked any of them who the freak was, they'd point to me. It was actually a little bit of an inside joke...I was the dash of color.
 
At any rate, I always appreciated their sense of dress for a few reasons. 1) It made them happy. 2) They had fantastic clothes that I could pilfer and borrow for parties. 3) The shoes. The shoes. The shoes. We would actually go in, as a group, and buy shoes to share...it made life much easier.
 
The only fault that I ever found with the goth style was the pressure they put on themselves to maintain anti-societal behavior...but, there were other things that caused us to grow apart none of which had to do with their interest or lack of interest in BDSM. I guess I've never really thought the two were correlated.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:19:12 PM   
LadyLupineNYC


Posts: 618
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: NYC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

 Unless you shop at Hot Topic/Torrid.  Then you're a Mall Goth and it doesn't count. 


My little group of Domme friends calls them 'baby goths'...and when I wnet to see Bauhouse it was  beyond funny- the didn't play Bela Legosies (sp?), not ecen for the encore, and I though there was gonna be a riot.  I for was was impressed and pleased they didn't.  Having said all that, I myself tend towards a mix of perisan/corporate...ppl basically have no idea what music I listen too (very eclectic) of what 'scene' I am in unless I tell them...

...blah blah blah...book...cover...blah.... 

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:21:41 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		~fr~ Off topic: Shameless plug: in the Bay Area I'm DJing at Torrid on January 19 (Stoneridge, Oakridge and Sun Valley) so all you BBW goths into BDSM come on out, buy some hot clothes and say hi

Back to your scheduled programing and sorry for the hijack

Z-

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:30:24 PM   
BloodLuna


Posts: 403
Joined: 10/28/2007
Status: offline 		LadyLupine:  luna has heard and used the term BabyGoth.  Master is from NY when the goth scene was at its height in the 80s.  He calls the preteenas (Mall-goths) out here Baby Bats.  There is a hilarious book about Goths written by Voltaire (the goth singer not the philosopher) that combines some historical feedback combined with hilarious "personality sketches" of different types of goths.  It kind of reminds luna of those descriptions of the submissives and dominants from Screw the Roses, like the "uber sub" . . . funny to read, funnier if you know the culture well. 
 
luna
 


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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:31:25 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

What people wear has a limited relationship to what they do. I'm into bondage but I can't imagine wearing a latex corset. It has zero appeal texturally speaking to me.


Again I completely agree... I have been going around agreeing with you a lot lately.

I think that I have outgrown needing to make a fashion statement around my interests, or interests around my fashion statement. I just want to wear things that I enjoy or he enjoys on me. If he wanted me to where a latex corset, I would, but only because he wanted me to. I prefer satin, silk, lace, and eyelet.

I remember when I was in high school, how one dressed determined who they hung with,  at 40 years old that seems all too silly to me. But then again I do not understand designer handbags either


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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:34:45 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline 		The goth subculture has not one thing to do with non conformity. People into it conform to goth subculture.

I totally think lace and victorian ambiance is asthetic, but when groups of people all gravitate to the same set of asthetics based and then hang out together, that is not called being yourself or non conformity.

Im not saying its bad to look goth, but the genre is based heavily on catholic imagery and extremely eurocentric artistic genres, which makes it as tied to mainstream western culture as Britney Spears.

And I dont know what possesses so many people to adopt this 'more goth than thou' attitude.

You're not really goth if you shop only at hot topic? You're not really goth if you hang out at the mall?

quote:

If it annoys you, get over it. I doubt you'll find many Goths critcizing you for your wardrobe choices.


Now that is some serious BS. No one judges my wardrobe choices like goths. I like lace and corsets and all, but Im not white or christian and I cant really justify venerating someone else's heritage to the degree that I dress gothic every day. But its goths that will make assumptions and tell them to me about how Id be so shocked by how dark they are or how edgy I am not because I wear bland clothing.

My annoyance with them is minor- If they dress like that then I want to play, but often they dont want to. They have their uses of course. If not for them, then anyone who bought fetish wear would be automatically outed.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:40:34 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I don't mind Goths at all. Gives leartherists a more expansive market to sell gear we make in.

Why would I care about the motivations behind the fashion?

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My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:45:59 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

The goth subculture has not one thing to do with non conformity. People into it conform to goth subculture.

I totally think lace and victorian ambiance is asthetic, but when groups of people all gravitate to the same set of asthetics based and then hang out together, that is not called being yourself or non conformity.

Im not saying its bad to look goth, but the genre is based heavily on catholic imagery and extremely eurocentric artistic genres, which makes it as tied to mainstream western culture as Britney Spears.

And I dont know what possesses so many people to adopt this 'more goth than thou' attitude.

You're not really goth if you shop only at hot topic? You're not really goth if you hang out at the mall?

quote:

If it annoys you, get over it. I doubt you'll find many Goths critcizing you for your wardrobe choices.


Now that is some serious BS. No one judges my wardrobe choices like goths. I like lace and corsets and all, but Im not white or christian and I cant really justify venerating someone else's heritage to the degree that I dress gothic every day. But its goths that will make assumptions and tell them to me about how Id be so shocked by how dark they are or how edgy I am not because I wear bland clothing.

My annoyance with them is minor- If they dress like that then I want to play, but often they dont want to. They have their uses of course. If not for them, then anyone who bought fetish wear would be automatically outed.


Can I ask, do 25 year olds still worry about this stuff these days? I was more worried about paying rent, eating, and making sure I had a babysitter than I was about this sort of thing at 25... In fact I have not worried about what other people thought about my wardrobe choices since I was 16.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:50:23 PM   
SylvereApLeanan


Posts: 8275
Joined: 11/1/2007
From: Hell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLupineNYC

My little group of Domme friends calls them 'baby goths'...


There was a marginal differentiation, for us, between the "baby bats/kindergoths" and Mall Goths.  The former were young (think 13-16 to our 20-something) but they were sincere.  They knew Bauhaus, Joy Division, and Siouxsie as well as the new Dark Wave stuff.  They read the great, classic authors and could hold an intelligent conversation on music and literature.
 
On the other hand the dreaded Mall Goths (also known as Spooky Kids) thought Marilyn Manson, Type O-, and Tool were "goth" and/or thought all they had to do to be goth was purchase all their clothing from HT without knowing anything about the music and writing.
 
Um...no.  Just no.
 
These days, my wardrobe is more Middle-Aged Mommy than Goth.  Though I still feed my velvet fetish now and then. 

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 1:52:03 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:


Can I ask, do 25 year olds still worry about this stuff these days? I was more worried about paying rent, eating, and making sure I had a babysitter than I was about this sort of thing at 25... In fact I have not worried about what other people thought about my wardrobe choices since I was 16.


Generally no. 25 yr olds are not very concerned unless they are obsessed with fashion. I myself have never been concerned with how other people perceive my choice of clothing until I began to get into the fetish scene, which seems to intersect somewhat with the goth/industrial scene. And then I got all this crap from people looking more fetishy than me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 2:18:42 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I would tell people to stick it is they were dissecting my clothing choices.

The only person who I care to make a fashion statement for is my Daddy, he will decide what I wear to lifestyle events, not me. He has already told me we are going to go shopping and he will direct that, especially when it comes to my shoe choices.

I understand from a cultural perspective that clothing is important to people, they make judgments about others based upon their clothing, but there comes a time when we get to the point where we ask ourselves these all important questions "Does this person judging me determine how much money I make? Is this a person who has an opinion that will impact my life? Do I really care what this person thinks?" If the answers to those questions is "no", why bother thinking about it?

If I were you I would ask your master about these questions, how does he want you to dress for lifestyle functions, and let that be your guide... isn't his opinion all that matters? And if you are judging goths for not being kinky, are you any different from them?


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The gothic/industrial subculture - 12/26/2007 2:32:48 PM   
l1z


Posts: 7
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline 		i have three sets of clothing...the stuff i've filched from Hubby's closet, the stuff i've bought to appease societal/familial expectations, and the stuff that i just think is purdy (some hot topic hand me downs from the thrift stores). none of them tell you a thing about me except i'm not a nudist. and for the record i'm not goth...i'm just chubby and black is slimming ^_^

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Profile   Post #: 40
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