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RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 6:46:11 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

Bhutto represented many things progressive in Islam, and Pakistan. Of course the fundamentalist wanted her dead. Now look to see which countries have large populations of fundamentalist, especially in control of the government or other power positions. Now you will see how the odds were truly against her being able to survive for very long. Islam is long over due for their internal revolution of their religion.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 7:41:59 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

The US bombed one of his safehouses in Afghanistan back in late 2001 killing his wife and children [...]


So, to see if I've got this straight, in an attempt at neutralizing a threat, the US liberated the threat from all Earthly bonds, so that he can now fully commit himself to his jihad with nothing to lose, no way to turn back, and a personal righteous zeal in addition to the one that he already had? I'm sure more than a few people in the various terrorist organizations out there are eternally grateful for this highly beneficial (for them) move.



Our intel said he was there. His family was not the target and we didnt even know they were there. And for awhile he was believed to be dead. A newspaper in Saudi Arabia even published his obituary.
These terrorists move around constantly. So any intel we get on their location that is more than a day old may not be correct any longer. So you are faced with that decision to either act now or try to confirm. If you try to confirm it, you may miss him. If the intel is reliable and the target is of high value, you take the shot. That's what we did in this instance and apparently the intel was correct and he was there....the guy just wasnt home.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 7:43:16 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Do you think the intel came from tortured suspects?

Curiously and laughingly,
Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 8:11:06 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		it is sad.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 8:36:23 AM   
Master96


Posts: 593
Joined: 2/13/2006
Status: offline 		It is a big lost! For Pakistan and the rest of the world

Though, she wasn't that innocent. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto#Charges_of_corruption

But nobody is perfect, I guess


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Master96,

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Understand that actions will always speak louder than words.


Before you speak, ask yourself..
Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?
Does it improve upon the silence? - Sai Baba

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 8:47:24 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Nobody is innocent, and that is a non-issue when you stop to consider Bush and Cheney.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 8:57:10 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

Bhutto represented many things progressive in Islam, and Pakistan. Of course the fundamentalist wanted her dead. Now look to see which countries have large populations of fundamentalist, especially in control of the government or other power positions. Now you will see how the odds were truly against her being able to survive for very long. Islam is long over due for their internal revolution of their religion.


She did ok in the 90s; if memory serves, she was stripped of her position as a consequence of corruption, but she lasted a few years.

It'll be interesting to note how many women have ascended to the top position in the enlightened West.

Having said that, the ins and outs of Pakistani politics are of no consequence to me, except to say that Pakistan is not a fair measure of the Islamic world: the Pakistanis are far more fundamentalist than most Arabs - a consequence of poverty.

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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 11:01:12 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Having said that, the ins and outs of Pakistani politics are of no consequence to me, except to say that Pakistan is not a fair measure of the Islamic world: the Pakistanis are far more fundamentalist than most Arabs - a consequence of poverty.



Hi NorthernGent

I have often heard how fundamentalist Arabs do not represent the majority thinking of Islam….Will someone please tell me where I can find all these majorities of people.

It seems to me every large nation with majorities of Moslems have a majority of radical fundamentalists.

I get so tired of hearing from Moslems how they deplore violence BUT… But hell... radicalism would not last if not supported by the majority of people and governments in the Moslem world.

I truly hope I am wrong but I see no evidence otherwise.

Butch

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 11:15:55 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

Bhutto represented many things progressive in Islam, and Pakistan. Of course the fundamentalist wanted her dead. Now look to see which countries have large populations of fundamentalist, especially in control of the government or other power positions. Now you will see how the odds were truly against her being able to survive for very long. Islam is long over due for their internal revolution of their religion.


The entire religion?

We might say the same of Christianity--at least if we lived in a different culture.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 11:27:18 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I believe the truly great religion of Islam has been taken over and used by both radicals and governments to hide their inadequacies and greed. To further their need for personal glory and power.

It is sad.
Butch

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 11:29:30 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Having said that, the ins and outs of Pakistani politics are of no consequence to me, except to say that Pakistan is not a fair measure of the Islamic world: the Pakistanis are far more fundamentalist than most Arabs - a consequence of poverty.



Hi NorthernGent

I have often heard how fundamentalist Arabs do not represent the majority thinking of Islam….Will someone please tell me where I can find all these majorities of people.

It seems to me every large nation with majorities of Moslems have a majority of radical fundamentalists.

I get so tired of hearing from Moslems how they deplore violence BUT… But hell... radicalism would not last if not supported by the majority of people and governments in the Moslem world.

I truly hope I am wrong but I see no evidence otherwise.

Butch


The people who run your country and mine have a vested interested in painting a certain picture; as a consequence, most sources won't give you or I a balanced view.

Yeah, they have some conservative views towards equality, liberty and order which don't correspond with mine, but then don't we all, eh? - I'm sure I don't need to mention some of the primitive acts we conduct in the name of freedom.

I'm rather bored and uninspired with this one-sided view of cultural differences. It really is tiresome and a case of same old. We've been doing this for centuries. It's always someone else - the Jews, the Irish, the French, the Russians, the Muslims: you name it, everyone but god's chosen people.

I suppose you simply have to ask yourself a few questions:

a) How much do you know of Islam?
b) How much do you know of the Middle Eastern countries?
c) From whom are you getting your information?

'Thing is, we're all humans with dreams and aspirations; I can't believe that the dreams and aspirations of another culture amount to fundamentalism, and based on what I've seen with my own eyes, i.e. spending time in the Middle East, I don't believe the picture painted by those with a vested interest.

Ponder the concept that goverments need an enemy as a means of binding people together for the nationalist cause; American identity was shaped in part by a common enemy - the Indians. The English nationalist cause was in part shaped by the French foe. That's the way governments operate - create an enemy, instill fear, generate a common cause, rally the troops etc.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 11:36:20 AM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, Benazir would have brought the positive changes necessary for Pakistan to maintain sanity and stability.  Unfortunately, Musharraf (the puppet dictator the US sponsored to seize power in a military coup) succeeded in neutralizing Benazir so we can expect more of the same there.  Pakistan will continue to allow US troop movements, the Pakistani people will continue to be angry and oppressed, Islam will continue in the same direction, and absolutely nothing will change.  That's the way Musharraf wants it, that's the way the US needs it, and that's what happened.  Expect blame to be put on CIA-funded Al Quaida and anybody but Musharraf.  Just another day in paradise. 

"Ya gotta get yer mind right!"
-Cool Hand Luke


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 11:45:14 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"East is East and West is West..."

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 12:36:12 PM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Greetings..~smiles~

Just a reply...

And here we go again. Now we've gone from bomb blast to bullet wound to neck to shrapnel in the head to now a head injury due to hitting it on the sunroof?

Truely understands to that their customs and such are vastly different but the carrying out of her body from the hospital by "supporters" in a wooden box is just bizarre. Would they really just release this womans body to literal strangers like that instead of her family members?

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

_____________________________

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(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 5:13:08 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Not the entire religion no, but in general yes. Christianity has already had several revolutions. For e better take on Islam, try reading about sufis. we always hear about sunnis and shites, but never about sufis.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

Bhutto represented many things progressive in Islam, and Pakistan. Of course the fundamentalist wanted her dead. Now look to see which countries have large populations of fundamentalist, especially in control of the government or other power positions. Now you will see how the odds were truly against her being able to survive for very long. Islam is long over due for their internal revolution of their religion.


The entire religion?

We might say the same of Christianity--at least if we lived in a different culture.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 5:36:09 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


The people who run your country and mine have a vested interested in painting a certain picture; as a consequence, most sources won't give you or I a balanced view.

Yeah, they have some conservative views towards equality, liberty and order which don't correspond with mine, but then don't we all, eh? - I'm sure I don't need to mention some of the primitive acts we conduct in the name of freedom.

I'm rather bored and uninspired with this one-sided view of cultural differences. It really is tiresome and a case of same old. We've been doing this for centuries. It's always someone else - the Jews, the Irish, the French, the Russians, the Muslims: you name it, everyone but god's chosen people.

I suppose you simply have to ask yourself a few questions:

a) How much do you know of Islam?
b) How much do you know of the Middle Eastern countries?
c) From whom are you getting your information?

'Thing is, we're all humans with dreams and aspirations; I can't believe that the dreams and aspirations of another culture amount to fundamentalism, and based on what I've seen with my own eyes, i.e. spending time in the Middle East, I don't believe the picture painted by those with a vested interest.

Ponder the concept that goverments need an enemy as a means of binding people together for the nationalist cause; American identity was shaped in part by a common enemy - the Indians. The English nationalist cause was in part shaped by the French foe. That's the way governments operate - create an enemy, instill fear, generate a common cause, rally the troops etc.


As you may have been able to tell from various posts I am a fairly religious person. I have casually spent time reading about other religions and tend to think of God as a source that may very well be the founder of most major religions.
I am tolerant of other beliefs and believe freedom to worship is essential to a free government and human rights. So I would say I am reasonably knowledgeable of Islam though nowhere near an expert.

However I do, as stated, believe governments trying to direct attention away from their problems at home have radicalized Islam. This practice has made fertile recruiting grounds for terrorists. They have taken a great religion of peace and used it for an excuse to murder.

If you need to be convinced try this;

First… draw a rough cartoon of Christ and depict him as a terrorist…scan this cartoon then post here with your address.

Second… draw a picture of Muhammad depicted in exactly the same manner…don’t forget your name and address as well.

Then after a period of time measure the response and tell me if you think Islam is radicalized.

I am well aware of the traditions of the depiction of Muhammad. I also know there is nothing in the Koran that specifically prohibits such depictions. I would however never purposely insult a culture or person. But then again I would not demand death for someone that choose to depict Christ as gay… or a terrorist …. or anything else.

You are however right on much of what you posted above... I am in no way denying the slant of western depiction of Islam. Nor the terrible fumbling record of the west in the Middle East. We ARE more worried about oil than peace in that region. This however is not an excuse for terrorism based on religion.

Butch

PS  Don’t forget to name your teddy bear Muhammad…no wait I think Jesus would be safer come to think of it…don’t you?


< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/28/2007 5:37:40 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 5:43:27 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That is why we pay 'lip service' to separation of church and state, Butch.

Here, we have an opposite problem, where average wisconsin cheeseheads will take the city to court for posting a nativity scene............it is all a matter of angle of incidence. That is why Jerry Falwell can tell people (and many have faith) that God is punishing America for any perceived tolerance of the pinko faggot commie buttfuckers........

Nah, same shit painted in a different brown.

Only those who believe in Odin and the other Gods of Valhalla are of the true and old religion.

The rest are killing themselves and we are patiently awaiting our turn to take over the world, as they did in the middle ages........

We knew the wanna be religions couldn't last

Knute AngurVadel




_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 6:04:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		 


mnottertail

I hope you don’t think I was defending the Christian religion against Islam.  There is no way to defend the past actions of so-called Christians.

All religions through history have been human kinds way to try and explain the impossible. Distance and time without beginning or ending… where did we come from where are we going…WHY

They have all promoted family… good over evil… a path to follow…a way to act for the benefit for all.

Their teachings have all been warped and bent to fit mans ambitions… This does not make the religion bad… but it does the people that would use it.
Butch

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 6:08:06 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Nope, I don't think anything of the kind, Butch.

Those promotions are good and needful, the demotions are what needs slaying, and if that be in the name of religion, let 'er buck........

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Pakistan's Bhutto killed in attack - 12/28/2007 9:36:44 PM   
MistressPav


Posts: 350
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Bitch shoulda known better than to pop her head up out of a vehicle like a turkey at the old-timey turkey shoots.

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(my boy "ToyZ")
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Profile   Post #: 80
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