RE: Can Bush do this?

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Muttling -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 2:02:11 AM)
I made this a seperate post because it it worthy of being seperate.........Torture and the UCMJ........ The president of the United States is given the power and authority to withdraw us from the Geneva Conventions or limit or compliance with them at any time he desires. This was very specifically and intentionally set up with respect to torture because there was a fear of "What if we have captured an enemy (then a communist now a terrorist) who we know for certain is involved in a plot to plant a nuke on U.S. soil?" The president should (and does) have authority to authorize any means necessary to get details of the plot from that individual and it would most certainly involve torture. In the case of Guantanimo, the PRESIDENT authorized certain interrogation techniques that are widely considered to be torture (I agree that they are). Since the order came from the president and we are talking about a treaty agreement instead of U.S. laws, it was a lawful order and the soldiers should not be held responsible. The president should be, but not the soldiers. If the soldiers were using such techniques at the command of a military officer, they would have been guilty of following an unlawful order and guilty of all the crimes associated with following that order. However, the ONLY man who has the authority to authorize torture gave the order and they were obligated to comply under the UCMJ.

luckydog1 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 2:02:59 AM)
I wonder if there was a devastating (unprecedented) type earthquake right before the election and the West Coast was in Ruins, If the Democrats would want the election held on time. Or a Nuke in NYC? This directive is clearly intended for a serious cripling of the nation. I guess if you think 911 was orchestrated by Bush and his cronies, you would worry about this. I mean if that was what was up, Iraq could have been played far differntly and Bush would have siezed Power at the Peak of his popularity. They could have used Sarin on our own troops in Iraq then Nuked Tikrit, and say all the evidence went up in the mushroom cloud. Make another 911 event and sieze power. It's easy to write a scenario like that. It's not what happened.

Muttling -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 2:08:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Bombs do not have ticking countdown detonators like the movies. hehe....You might want to research "clockwork fuses". The WWI and WWII aerial bombs and mortars could be equipped with a brass "clockwork" fuse. And the litterally did have a ticking countdown detonator, kind of like an egg timer. [:D]

Aylee -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 6:36:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee "I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God)." Excellent point, HOWEVER, that second to last sentence is the REALLY important one. You might want to research how Articles 90, 91, and 92 of the UCMJ have been applied in previous court proceedings. It is a federal crime to follow an unlawful order, a wonderful example of this is the Oliver North trial in which North claimed that he was only following orders and shouldn't be held responsible for them being illegal orders. As we all know, he WAS held responsible. The bolded section was in response to who was giving orders and whose orders had to be followed.

Aylee -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 6:38:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Bombs do not have ticking countdown detonators like the movies. hehe....You might want to research "clockwork fuses". The WWI and WWII aerial bombs and mortars could be equipped with a brass "clockwork" fuse. And the litterally did have a ticking countdown detonator, kind of like an egg timer. [:D] In this day and age, bombs are not used like they show on TV and in the movies with the ticking LED countdown display. Muttling, you are taking this stuff out of context for fun?

Alumbrado -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 6:59:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee "I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God)." Excellent point, HOWEVER, that second to last sentence is the REALLY important one. You might want to research how Articles 90, 91, and 92 of the UCMJ have been applied in previous court proceedings. It is a federal crime to follow an unlawful order, a wonderful example of this is the Oliver North trial in which North claimed that he was only following orders and shouldn't be held responsible for them being illegal orders. As we all know, he WAS held responsible. The bolded section was in response to who was giving orders and whose orders had to be followed. Errrmmm... who do we think was giving Ollie his orders? Anyhooo... Nixon was going to use special emergency proclamations to stay in office by force, Reagan was going to summon up his minions from the netherworlds to suspend the Constitution, Clinton opined that the term limits didn't really apply to him.... nothing new in this latest round of scare mongering.

Owner59 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:00:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Bombs do not have ticking countdown detonators like the movies. And torture doesn`t work, either,like in the movies.But that`s not the question. The question is,if would work,and you could save thousands of American lives,would you do it? The big brave guys, who would torture someone to get information,should be as willing to "sacrifice", and go down town on a suspect,to get that vital info. No. For one, adultry is against the UCMJ. So are homosexual acts. So is rape. I would just behead him on TV. After all, I believe that is okay by the Geneva Convention. At least, THEY are not considering that torture. Just to bring you up to speed kid,torture is also against the USMJ. So if the guy had info about a planted bomb,you would cut of his head, on TV.That`s your answer? LOL What does that say?lol,and laughs again. I guess that means the bomb goes off,and you`re partially to blame,b/c you weren`t willing to do what it took,to save American lives. I`m impressed ,by your bravery.<snicker>

MissSCD -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:02:53 AM)
*Check the constitution for your answer.* *Regards, MissSCD*

Owner59 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:14:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 I wonder if there was a devastating (unprecedented) type earthquake right before the election and the West Coast was in Ruins, If the Democrats would want the election held on time. Or a Nuke in NYC? This directive is clearly intended for a serious cripling of the nation. I guess if you think 911 was orchestrated by Bush and his cronies, you would worry about this. I mean if that was what was up, Iraq could have been played far differntly and Bush would have siezed Power at the Peak of his popularity. They could have used Sarin on our own troops in Iraq then Nuked Tikrit, and say all the evidence went up in the mushroom cloud. Make another 911 event and sieze power. It's easy to write a scenario like that. It's not what happened. "I guess if you think 911 was orchestrated by Bush and his cronies, you would worry about this." Why is this childish stupidity,being inserted into the conversation? No one`s mentioned anything like that,accept for the bush lickers/brown-nosers. Is it a way of obfuscating,from the OP? The answer to the OP,apparently ,is yes. The Bush lickers hope ,that people will believe that the republicans would ~never~,~ever~, do such a thing.That they are so honest and love America so much ,that they would never implement such a fascist plan as "directive 51" . That`s why they hatched this plan, in the 1st place,right?Nothing to worry about,apparently.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m11.gif[/image]

Owner59 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:19:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Bombs do not have ticking countdown detonators like the movies. hehe....You might want to research "clockwork fuses". The WWI and WWII aerial bombs and mortars could be equipped with a brass "clockwork" fuse. And the litterally did have a ticking countdown detonator, kind of like an egg timer. [:D] Meh,... She`s a military expert,foriegn affairs expert,an expert on Constitutional law and the USMJ,....and apparently,a bomb and explosives expert.<snicker> Can`t argue with experts,can you? LOL ,We are so fucked.

Alumbrado -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:23:41 AM)
quote: She`s a military expert,foriegn affairs expert,an expert on Constitutional law and the USMJ,....and apparently,a bomb and explosives expert.<snicker> I doubt if anyone is an expert on the USMJ... except you.

Aylee -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:29:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Bombs do not have ticking countdown detonators like the movies. And torture doesn`t work, either,like in the movies.But that`s not the question. The question is,if would work,and you could save thousands of American lives,would you do it? The big brave guys, who would torture someone to get information,should be as willing to "sacrifice", and go down town on a suspect,to get that vital info. No. For one, adultry is against the UCMJ. So are homosexual acts. So is rape. I would just behead him on TV. After all, I believe that is okay by the Geneva Convention. At least, THEY are not considering that torture. Just to bring you up to speed kid,torture is also against the USMJ. So if the guy had info about a planted bomb,you would cut of his head, on TV.That`s your answer? LOL What does that say?lol,and laughs again. I guess that means the bomb goes off,and you`re partially to blame,b/c you weren`t willing to what it took,to save American lives. The adultry part should have tipped you off. Gosh, all I would have to do is remove my burkha. But at least you got the sarcasm about the televised beheadings. Well, you laughed anyway. It is a silly scenario. You say that torture does not work. Except it this one case it is going to work. But only if I am a guy and the bomber is a guy and not a suicide bomber. Plus we do not know what info we are torturing out of the guy. Or not torturing in this case because torture does not work and I do not have the bits to make it torture in this special scenario. So, I am all alone with this crazed jihadist. And for some reason he has told me that there is a bomb. You are maintaining that the rationale action at this point is to find a male to give him a blow job. Because male on male contact is the ONLY thing that is going to break him. Such a realistic scenario.

Owner59 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:31:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: She`s a military expert,foriegn affairs expert,an expert on Constitutional law and the USMJ,....and apparently,a bomb and explosives expert.<snicker> I doubt if anyone is an expert on the USMJ... except you. Ugh,a devastating body blow,from an intellectual giant.... Not sure how much more, I can take.Please stop,oh,please make it stop...... I guess we can count you in, for "information extraction" via dick sucking,if need be?

Aylee -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:33:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: She`s a military expert,foriegn affairs expert,an expert on Constitutional law and the USMJ,....and apparently,a bomb and explosives expert.<snicker> I doubt if anyone is an expert on the USMJ... except you. Thank you. I did not have a chance to respond about that, as I was giving the benefit of the doubt that it was a typo. But yes, it is there again, but you got to it first. I am however, an expert at using my space bar.

Alumbrado -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:35:55 AM)
In the case of certain posters, the benefit of the doubt still hasn't been earned.

Owner59 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:48:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Bombs do not have ticking countdown detonators like the movies. And torture doesn`t work, either,like in the movies.But that`s not the question. The question is,if would work,and you could save thousands of American lives,would you do it? The big brave guys, who would torture someone to get information,should be as willing to "sacrifice", and go down town on a suspect,to get that vital info. No. For one, adultry is against the UCMJ. So are homosexual acts. So is rape. I would just behead him on TV. After all, I believe that is okay by the Geneva Convention. At least, THEY are not considering that torture. Just to bring you up to speed kid,torture is also against the USMJ. So if the guy had info about a planted bomb,you would cut of his head, on TV.That`s your answer? LOL What does that say?lol,and laughs again. I guess that means the bomb goes off,and you`re partially to blame,b/c you weren`t willing to what it took,to save American lives. The adultry part should have tipped you off. Gosh, all I would have to do is remove my burkha. But at least you got the sarcasm about the televised beheadings. Well, you laughed anyway. It is a silly scenario. You say that torture does not work. Except it this one case it is going to work. But only if I am a guy and the bomber is a guy and not a suicide bomber. Plus we do not know what info we are torturing out of the guy. Or not torturing in this case because torture does not work and I do not have the bits to make it torture in this special scenario. So, I am all alone with this crazed jihadist. And for some reason he has told me that there is a bomb. You are maintaining that the rationale action at this point is to find a male to give him a blow job. Because male on male contact is the ONLY thing that is going to break him. Such a realistic scenario. It is a silly scenario. So is the scenario,of torturing people in order to save lives. The example always given,is the ticking time bomb,and whether we should allow torture to find out where that bomb is. You say that torture does not work. Except it this one case it is going to work. But only if I am a guy and the bomber is a guy and not a suicide bomber. The pro-torture,happy go lucky neo-conservatives, argue that torture is necessary,and give the same example ,I gave. My hypothetical just switches out the torture,water-boarding part,etc,with going down on a jihadist,to get that vital lifesaving info. I guess your inability to answer the question ,means you`d let the terrorists win. The question,would you do that "dirty thang",to save American lives. No parsing now,answer the question.Is saving American lives,worth this sacrifice? Can`t wait to hear Luckydog`s answer.Pretty sure he`ll pussy out, though.

Owner59 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 7:56:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: She`s a military expert,foriegn affairs expert,an expert on Constitutional law and the USMJ,....and apparently,a bomb and explosives expert.<snicker> I doubt if anyone is an expert on the USMJ... except you. Thank you. I did not have a chance to respond about that, as I was giving the benefit of the doubt that it was a typo. But yes, it is there again, but you got to it first. I am however, an expert at using my space bar. I am however, an expert at using my space bar. whoshhh! Thank God ,for that. Now American, is safe.

Aylee -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 8:00:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 It is a silly scenario. So is the scenario,of torturing people in order to save lives. The example always given,is the ticking time bomb,and whether we should allow torture to find out where that bomb is. You say that torture does not work. Except it this one case it is going to work. But only if I am a guy and the bomber is a guy and not a suicide bomber. The pro-torture,happy go lucky neo-conservatives, argue that torture is necessary,and give the same example ,I gave. My hypothetical just switches out the torture,water-boarding part,etc,with going down on a jihadist,to get that vital lifesaving info. I guess your inability to answer the question ,means you`d let the terrorists win. The question,would you do that "dirty thang",to save American lives. No parsing now,answer the question.Is saving American lives,worth this sacrifice? Can`t wait to hear Luckydog`s answer.Pretty sure he`ll pussy out, though. All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal. All men are mortal. Alice is a According to you, because jihadists fear homosexual contact SO much, they will immediatly give up any information when such happens. The more specific example is, would I give a blow job to a jihadist in order to extract information, since they fear this homosexual contact so much that such would cause them to give up any and all info. Like Alice, in the above syllogism, I am not a man. Just as that syllogism cannot be completed, your question cannot be either. The space bar is your friend.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 8:05:32 AM)
Hey, Owner59, here's a scenario for you ... Martians from Uranus (immigrations a problem at thar, too, ya know. [:D] ) have taken 26 virgin princesses from Pellucidar hostage, and plan on sacrificing them to Issus, the goddess of Barsoom at the monthly games. Your mother, sister, and twin female sibling are all captured by mistake (as they aren't princesses, but were simply innocent tourists who masqueraded as handmaidens but confused for royalty ... long story ....) Now, the religion of the Therns allows for the release of up to four unrelated captives, if one man is willing to spend a year with his tongue stuck to a frozen pole of feces that has been built in the Caverns under the North Pole for this very purpose. Here is the question: Would you allow American Express to launder your shorts? You must answer this question within 1 minute of reading this post, and you must answer it in three paragraphs of no more than 26 words each, and one additional paragraph of 250 words. You have 10 minutes. Go. Firm PS. Failure to correctly answer will define you as an immoral weakling, unfit for political autonomy or fitness to post ever again on the CM forums in the OTF. [:D][:D]

Owner59 -> RE: Can Bush do this? (1/2/2008 8:07:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 It is a silly scenario. So is the scenario,of torturing people in order to save lives. The example always given,is the ticking time bomb,and whether we should allow torture to find out where that bomb is. You say that torture does not work. Except it this one case it is going to work. But only if I am a guy and the bomber is a guy and not a suicide bomber. The pro-torture,happy go lucky neo-conservatives, argue that torture is necessary,and give the same example ,I gave. My hypothetical just switches out the torture,water-boarding part,etc,with going down on a jihadist,to get that vital lifesaving info. I guess your inability to answer the question ,means you`d let the terrorists win. The question,would you do that "dirty thang",to save American lives. No parsing now,answer the question.Is saving American lives,worth this sacrifice? Can`t wait to hear Luckydog`s answer.Pretty sure he`ll pussy out, though. All men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal. All men are mortal. Alice is a According to you, because jihadists fear homosexual contact SO much, they will immediatly give up any information when such happens. The more specific example is, would I give a blow job to a jihadist in order to extract information, since they fear this homosexual contact so much that such would cause them to give up any and all info. Like Alice, in the above syllogism, I am not a man. Just as that syllogism cannot be completed, your question cannot be either. The space bar is your friend. We`ll let you go down on the female jihadists.lol They`re just a god fearing,as the men. Now step up,.... and save lives,......lol To the normal,everyday,average folks: Though my hypothetical is silly(as is the neo-con version),the subject of torture is a serious one. It should be discussed honestly and with maturity.The military doesn`t want this,the State Department doesn`t want this.Normal ,everyday people don`t want this.Only the ubber patriots ,want this. My question is to show just how dis-honest and immature ,the pro-torture/pro Bush crowd is. And they haven`t let me down.

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