Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Non-Constructive Responses


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Non-Constructive Responses Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 1:58:43 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		all the Jews i know talk about the Jewish guilt thing.....they are who i learned about it from.....i tell em they got guilt, as a Baptist, i got the fear of eternal burning in hell......dunno which of us got off easier-lol

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:02:26 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

I am Jewish and have no idea what you mean by this. Are you saying that Jewish people get down on themselves and do not take constructive criticism? Or that they have low self-esteem. None of which is true in my case or anyone else that I personally know. Unless you are basing assumptions on just YOUR partner or Woody Allen characters.

Care to comment?

I comment that you are too sensitive.

But generally, it's a joke based on a stereotype that Jewish kids are raised with tons of guilt and never being good enough and never doing the right thing and always having to please their moms.

If you can't laugh and appreciate a stereotype for the pleasure it can bring, what can you laugh at?

As well, I think it's way too soon after trying to pretend that Hannaukah is a "major holiday" to the Jewish faith to start taking any umbrage under that label and be taken seriously.


I'm sorry Red, but I have to agree with her. It's a joking stereotype like the whole Catholic guilt thing. Part of Val's family is Jewish, a good number of our friends either are or have Jewish family and we make a lot of jokes about the whole "Jewish guilt" thing. Just like we make jokes about the fluffy bunny Pagans and the Jesus Crispies (think the kids who walk around wearing shirts with Jesus logos).


Aqua, you should know by now that I have a sense of humor about most things, including being called a JAP, etc. However...what I was replying to was the discussion in this thread about non-constructive responses, of which I felt that was.

There is a very, very fine line between joking about JAPS, etc. and other comments that are made. I have had friends and family in personal situations and in business situations targeted in anti-semitic ways. You would never believe it would you, living where I do, but the fact remains that it does happen.

And, I did not reply negatively to LA at first until she felt it necessary to criticize me for a personal belief system that I have about a Jewish holiday that I mentioned back in December.

She felt it was necessary to bring that comment into play during this discussion when all I did was ask her to comment on her statement, as I would anyone else.

If you read my questions/comments to her, you can see what I asked in a very neutral way, one in which she took to be overly sensitive and then further inflamed the situation by bringing up my opinion on Hanukah, which is not even relevant.

That type of ridiculous posturing is what gets my ire going. Not simple joking around about JAPS.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:12:12 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		I did look back and my opinion is she made a joke about Jewish guilt that was taken a little too seriously. I also disagreed with you in the thread about Hannaukah, BTW.

At the risk of being flippant, can we settle this over some latkes?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:13:19 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I did look back and my opinion is she made a joke about Jewish guilt that was taken a little too seriously. I also disagreed with you in the thread about Hannaukah, BTW.

At the risk of being flippant, can we settle this over some latkes?


I hate latkes, but how about some wine?

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:14:18 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Aqua, you should know by now that I have a sense of humor about most things, including being called a JAP, etc. However...what I was replying to was the discussion in this thread about non-constructive responses, of which I felt that was.

So when you said "I don't like stereotypes in any form." what you really meant was "I don't like stereotypes when I don't laugh at them and want an excuse to curse at someone."

quote:

And, I did not reply negatively to LA at first until she felt it necessary to criticize me for a personal belief system that I have about a Jewish holiday that I mentioned back in December.

I didn't criticize you for it, I simply said that you can't expect to be taken seriously on a point about being Jewish when you made such a blatant misstep regarding a Jewish tenant so recently.

And you do realize that statement is the equivalent of saying "She started it"?

quote:

If you read my questions/comments to her, you can see what I asked in a very neutral way, one in which she took to be overly sensitive and then further inflamed the situation by bringing up my opinion on Hanukah, which is not even relevant.

That type of ridiculous posturing is what gets my ire going. Not simple joking around about JAPS.

Again, you're ok with stereotypes as long as you like to laugh about it and don't want an excuse to curse at someone.

And if you sincerely believe anyone is going to consider your initial response to have been "nuetral" then you really are deluded.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:15:37 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I did look back and my opinion is she made a joke about Jewish guilt that was taken a little too seriously. I also disagreed with you in the thread about Hannaukah, BTW.

At the risk of being flippant, can we settle this over some latkes?


I hate latkes, but how about some wine?


I've got a bottle of some yummy blackberry stuff that is even kosher! Which reminds me... I forgot to light the candles yesterday. Damn it.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:22:00 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Aqua, you should know by now that I have a sense of humor about most things, including being called a JAP, etc. However...what I was replying to was the discussion in this thread about non-constructive responses, of which I felt that was.

So when you said "I don't like stereotypes in any form." what you really meant was "I don't like stereotypes when I don't laugh at them and want an excuse to curse at someone."

quote:

And, I did not reply negatively to LA at first until she felt it necessary to criticize me for a personal belief system that I have about a Jewish holiday that I mentioned back in December.

I didn't criticize you for it, I simply said that you can't expect to be taken seriously on a point about being Jewish when you made such a blatant misstep regarding a Jewish tenant so recently. (who are you to make a judgement on my opinion regarding my feelings on a Jewish holiday? are you insane???)

And you do realize that statement is the equivalent of saying "She started it"? (yes, you did start the negativity, I simply asked you to comment on your statement)

quote:

If you read my questions/comments to her, you can see what I asked in a very neutral way, one in which she took to be overly sensitive and then further inflamed the situation by bringing up my opinion on Hanukah, which is not even relevant.

That type of ridiculous posturing is what gets my ire going. Not simple joking around about JAPS.

Again, you're ok with stereotypes as long as you like to laugh about it and don't want an excuse to curse at someone. (no, I already explained my position on answering the question put forth in the OP's question. I commented on YOUR comment. Get over it. I don't need an excuse to do anything.

And if you sincerely believe anyone is going to consider your initial response to have been "nuetral" then you really are deluded. (My reply to you was neutral and I am not deluded nor do I care who sees it as neutral or not. I know my intent. Intent is what I am concerned with, not your opinion. I only clarified for Aqua since she is always very reasonable about discussions. Even though she and I can agree to disagree, she does it in an inoffensive manner, unlike your reply to my asking you to comment, in which you brought up my personal belief system.)


Now, if you feel you would like the last word, LA, be my guest, since I am now done with you and this ridiculous conversation.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:22:33 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I've got all the answers I need at this point so you ladies can feel free to have at it.

Just take off a shirt or something.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:22:47 PM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Children, please.

XI


_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:23:44 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I've got all the answers I need at this point so you ladies can feel free to have at it.

Just take off a shirt or something.


No, we are done, at least I am and apologies for the hijack rabbit.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:24:38 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I've got all the answers I need at this point so you ladies can feel free to have at it.

Just take off a shirt or something.


No, we are done, at least I am and apologies for the hijack rabbit.


*pouts*

So no shirts being taken off in the cat fight?

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:29:59 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I've got all the answers I need at this point so you ladies can feel free to have at it.

Just take off a shirt or something.


No, we are done, at least I am and apologies for the hijack rabbit.


*pouts*

So no shirts being taken off in the cat fight?


I only do jello wrestling, ask Aqua. No cat fights, wouldn't want to break a nail.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:36:16 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I've got all the answers I need at this point so you ladies can feel free to have at it.

Just take off a shirt or something.


Heehee, way ahead of you. I'm already in my undies!

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 2:53:49 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		FR to yank this kicking and screaming back to the original topic...

Yo!  AngryBunnyDude!  I remember going to a seminar eons ago about dealing with different types of people in the workplace.  I know, I know, bear with me for a minute.  One of the types was a person that when reprimanded for something, did not take it as an opportunity for change and growth, but as an affirmation of their low worth as a person.  Sound familiar?  The inexperienced manager would end up apologizing for reprimanding, and the behavior that caused the error in the first place was never corrected and did not change.

I searched for the solution to that, and I couldn't find the specific recommended steps.  Because I don't hire people like that, or they don't last very long for other reasons, or I just handle it my own way, I don't remember the exact advice.  I do know that it involved not buying into the "pity party", but keeping the topic on track regarding the specific behavior that needed to change no matter how much the other person tried (on purpose or otherwise) to derail it.  It may have involved confronting obviously ridiculous statements such as "I cannot do anything right" with a statement of fact such as, "you and I both know that is not true, you are great at XXX and XXX and XXXX.  If I didn't think you were a valuable employee (partner/friend/part of my life/whatever), then I would not bother with this.  You are valuable, and you need to work on this one thing." 

Notice the last statement had the conjunction "and", not "but" in it.  It would read negatively if you said, "You are valuable, but you need to work on this one thing."

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 6:15:06 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Well, if negative reinforcement doesn't work, I suggest not using it. Simply ignoring unwanted behavior and only responding with positive reinforcement instead.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 7:34:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Actually, this is really helpful, because it stems toward her problem. I prefer to be private about what goes on in my own interpersonal relations, more or less, and she reads the forums so I am not going to embaress her by spewing her life story here for all to see.


Make sure you keep the positive statements in the realm of credibility. Probably goes without saying, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. If you would like to do it more thoroughly, pick up Lazarus' books on cognitive behavioural therapy, and possibly some of Pinker's books (like "How the mind works").

Another good point is that if you give her more stuff to succeed at (I'm not talking about rigginng the game, so to speak, just picking it more carefully), you get her into the habit of succeeding, and get to build successes on top of successes. That may take a certain amount of time, but it's also a fairly reliable approach, as long as it doesn't feel like you're coddling, handholding or holding her back. Each failure costs more than you gain by an equivalent success; that's just how most people are wired. Hence, getting into the habit of succeeding can be a good thing.

I also think the advice about reinforcing your judgment over hers (the whole bit about you setting the standard, not her) is sound. Just keep in mind that this also requires actually being honest about failures, so she knows she can trust the positive feedback she gets.

Also, if she isn't getting some kind of catharsis out of punishments, I'd either consider using a different kind (I can't really offer advice on that without a clear idea about what the failures are), not using them at all, or stepping them up. The latter should only be done if you're sure it will provide catharsis, of course, but I figure you can judge whether that is the case or not. I do know that some can find it hard to mete out sufficiently strict punishments to alleviate guilt over failures, though, and in the cases where punishment actually does provide that, it can be useful to try to move it up to a level that works. Not a favoured technique with me, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/12/2008 7:38:55 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I find it sickening to see anti-semitism in any guise, especially from someone who is dating a Jewish person.


Kind of touchy, it seems to me as a neutral third party (i.e. I've not been exposed to the origins of the stereotype, and I feel about the same regarding you and LA both). And the quoted part fuels a stereotype that gives rise to anti-semetism, namely that Jews (in this stereotype that you're fuelling) will cry "anti-semitism" at things non-Jews would take as regular, interpersonal disagreements.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/13/2008 9:18:29 AM   
eevin


Posts: 64
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

For example, the person automatically responds by getting down on herself and viewing herself as a failure and incompetent as opposed to constructively viewing this as an opportunity to improve.


Personally, that's how i react.  Even though i know i should take it constructively.  Any time ANYONE tells me something negative i take it to heart that i'm failure because they've seen something negative (or at least not positive) about me.  Then i get angry with myself  a bit later because i've let that happen to me again.


_____________________________


Plants are simply slow animals.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/13/2008 9:34:54 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I find it sickening to see anti-semitism in any guise, especially from someone who is dating a Jewish person.


Kind of touchy, it seems to me as a neutral third party (i.e. I've not been exposed to the origins of the stereotype, and I feel about the same regarding you and LA both). And the quoted part fuels a stereotype that gives rise to anti-semetism, namely that Jews (in this stereotype that you're fuelling) will cry "anti-semitism" at things non-Jews would take as regular, interpersonal disagreements.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Your opinion has been noted and discarded. Thanks for the input.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Non-Constructive Responses - 1/13/2008 12:19:43 PM   
carlie310


Posts: 256
Joined: 9/23/2007
Status: offline 		FR~

This is something with which I currently struggle.  I hate to let anyone down and at least one Dom has noticed this pattern in my behavior.  The best advice that I've seen in this thread is the one about framing the correction as "I love you and. . ." instead of "I love you but. . ."  The first is very affirming; the second makes the neurotic in me wonder how many buts it will take to cancel out the love.

The advice to ignore the disobedience and focus on the positive is good as well, except I would make one small change. If I were in a conversation with someone about *me*, I would suggest that the disobedience (or 'opportunity for growth', lol) be noted as briefly as possible, with as few emotional whammy words as possible.  (disappointed, for example)  eg: "You didn't do XYZ today.  What is your plan for doing it?" If I screw up and it never gets mentioned, the opportunities for self-flagellation abound.  Bringing it up and dealing with any practical consequences (not balancing checkbook, to steal an example from an entirely different derailed thread) takes care of the issue while minimizing the emotional impact.

Of course, that's how it would work better for me, right now.  Tomorrow may be different for me, and today is almost surely different for everyone else.

I look forward to reading the next thread you start, MR, for a variety of reasons.

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: Non-Constructive Responses Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078