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Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 12:34:02 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		This isn't meant to start a huge Age and Experience flame war nor is it an insult to all the young people out there. It would be kind of self defeating if it was since I still qualify as one of those "silly young people".

However, as much as we like to turn our noses, stomp our feet in the ground, and pretend that we know everything in the world, I think there is still an equation at work in regards to personal growth that involves time and experience. The more passage of the time, the more experience and knowledge you are able to accumulate. Hence, time ultimately presents a limit as to how much a person can experience and learn.

The point I am leading up to is that there CAN (Note the word CAN and not the word IS) be a substantial difference between a dominant taking control over aspects of a middle aged submissives life and a dominant taking control over aspects of a submissive's life who is barely in their 20's and hasn't finished college.

For example, taking control over someone's personal finances before they have an opportunity to gain experience with managing complex finances can have a repercussion on the growth of someone that isn't present with someone who has spent years managing their own finances.

For mainly the Dominants/Masters/Whatevers out there who's demographic involves young girls (late teens, early 20's), have you ever been faced with this moral dilemma? Do you think it is an unwise decision to take control of certain aspects of someone's life when it might stalwart their growth as an individual?

Finally, leading up to the bigger and more controversial question intended for everyone, do you think a TPE dynamic (for the purposes of discussion, I am using TPE to mean an authority dynamic where major control over an individual's life is surrendered) at too young of an age can be an unwise life decision?



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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 12:52:40 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I will only say if I had understood my submission earlier in life and had belonged to a wise Master in my 20s, I would have saved myself a hell of a lot of pain and confusion in life.  Then again, that pain and confusion formed me into who I am today.  Then again, without it, maybe I'd have just been formed into another cool person.  :)

Here's what I believe - Opportunities present themselves when we are open to them and ready for them.  What we do with them at that point, is up to us. 

So that's kind of a see-saw answer, but I think if someone has a need, denying that need until later, while it can indeed work out for the best, isn't necessarily the best thing to do with it.

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 12:55:21 PM   
SadisticBastid


Posts: 11
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline 		Damn good question... shows your maturity level simply for comprehending the finer aspects of control... rather than just being a chest banging Dom who says I will take all control, without considering the impact of such control.

Now there are several different ways of looking at this:

1. There are those who wand that level of control, because ultimately it instills a sense of dependance in the slave to the Master or Dom. Sad, but true.
2. There are those who simply don't care. Also sad, but true.
3. There are those like you who care, but don't know how to correctly adjust for each situation to do what is BEST for the submissive, and not just themselves.

For those who fit into category number 3... I can offer a little bit of advice as I have been in that very situation several times before, and looks like I will be again shortly. First you must not be selfish and only care about yourself... you have to think about your slave, and what is in her best interest. Its not always best to take complete control because as you stated, that has a lasting impact on their own personal growth.

So in that event, sometimes its best to be more of a mentor and a guide than a Master. That means, watch her, monitor her, and lead her, but ultimately let her make her own choices in that arena. Some might think that makes you less of a Dom for not wanting to just take over and save her from herself, but at times, she will have to make her own mistakes before she can learn. You need to understand that however, and be prepared to stand there and let her make a mistake, but be ready to catch her, and minimize the impact as much as possible so that she can lern, but not ruin her life and her future.

Kudo's to you for thinking beyond simply I am Dom I will control all :)

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:09:05 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

For mainly the Dominants/Masters/Whatevers out there who's demographic involves young girls (late teens, early 20's), have you ever been faced with this moral dilemma? Do you think it is an unwise decision to take control of certain aspects of someone's life when it might stalwart their growth as an individual?


Why would you assume that taking control means stunting their growth?  Taking control can mean expanding their capabilities, within the context of your control.  I've instructed previous partners to open checking/savings accounts (to use your finance example), how to balance their checkbook, how to create and manage a budget, etc.  It's my desire to make her more capable, rather than less. 
 
And that does not detract from her submission and service to me one bit.  In fact, within the context of my relationship dynamic, it makes her submission to me more valuable because it is based upon much more than a need that stems from being unable to fend for herself.  I believe that objectifies me. 
 
Besides, I enjoy teaching and personally choose to have a positive and constructive effect upon my partner's life. 

quote:


Finally, leading up to the bigger and more controversial question intended for everyone, do you think a TPE dynamic (for the purposes of discussion, I am using TPE to mean an authority dynamic where major control over an individual's life is surrendered) at too young of an age can be an unwise life decision?


That all depends upon what it is that you *do* with the authority you have to exert control.  If you use it exclusively for your benefit, it's likely to have an adverse effect upon your partner (regardless of age, but more profound for someone younger who simply has more to learn).  If you use it for mutual benefit, or for the benefit of the relationship (which includes the both of you), then it's likely to improve her life.
 
John

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:10:09 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

So that's kind of a see-saw answer, but I think if someone has a need, denying that need until later, while it can indeed work out for the best, isn't necessarily the best thing to do with it.


I can certainly understand that. I don't think abstaining from finding the relationship you want is the answer, but I still think that the late teens, early 20's is an important period of time where you are getting away from the authority dynamic present with your parents and start making your own decisions.

This is why my philosophy tends to line up with what SadisticBastard said...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadisticBastid

For those who fit into category number 3... I can offer a little bit of advice as I have been in that very situation several times before, and looks like I will be again shortly. First you must not be selfish and only care about yourself... you have to think about your slave, and what is in her best interest. Its not always best to take complete control because as you stated, that has a lasting impact on their own personal growth.


There is decisions or aspects I won't have any control over past giving advice in my own relations with my young girl. Somethings that go beyond the length of your hair or the outfit you wear are things that people need to be experienced with doing themselves before turning over to a "new parent".

Even if it means I don't get to claim the title of an "Uber TPE 24/7 Complete Control M/S relatonship"

But I am still want to hear words exchanged and my opinion isn't solid.

Thanks for your responses and the compliments



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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:14:26 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Why would you assume that taking control means stunting their growth? 



To clarify where I was coming from, I was talking less in the sense of "taking control" and more in the sense of "making decisions for them that it might be better if they made for themselves".

I can teach someone how to balance a checkbook and how to manage money and give them advice on what to do with it, but that won't be the same as solely making the decisions for them on what they do with their money. I'm of the opinion that making your own decisions, thinking for yourself, and making mistakes is a large part of developing wisdom in a certain area.

I agree with what your saying and it gives me a new way to look at it so this is not a rebuttal.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 1/12/2008 1:17:44 PM >

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:17:49 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Finally, leading up to the bigger and more controversial question intended for everyone, do you think a TPE dynamic (for the purposes of discussion, I am using TPE to mean an authority dynamic where major control over an individual's life is surrendered) at too young of an age can be an unwise life decision?




Yes I think it can be. If someone never learns how to manage their own life, they are stranded if anything should happen to the person who was managing it.

That said, I think you can also balence things. I am learning how to budget with Valyraen's advice and while it hasn't been an overnight success there has been noticable improvement. And if a TPE or d/s relationship is what you are inclined for, I don't think you have to wait until you have all of life's answers to start exploring and having relationships.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:18:21 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		I wouldn’t trust anyone with my finances but myself so any Dominant wanting control over those aspects of my life is in for a fuck off type response. Why is it people think that every D/s relationship is a TPE one where the submissive partner has no autonomy at all? The question is unrealistic as I don’t know many people handing over all their financial dealings to a Master and if they are then they are idiots because those relationships are just as susceptible to ending as any other.

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:23:02 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Why is it people think that every D/s relationship is a TPE one where the submissive partner has no autonomy at all?


I would be interested to know where I suggested everyone was.
 
quote:


The question is unrealistic as I don’t know many people handing over all their financial dealings to a Master and if they are then they are idiots because those relationships are just as susceptible to ending as any other.


I don't know a whole lot of people who have climbed mountains, but if my decree to the public was that discussions on mountain climbing were unrealistic and pointless because of the lack of my own personal experiences with meeting mountain climbers, won't you consider me to be a silly person?

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:23:45 PM   
takenbyjohnr07


Posts: 787
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		No matter what the age, you should never venture into anything you are not ready for. In this day and age if you do not know how to balance a check book, savings account or pump your own gas you should not be entering into any type of  Totally controlled Dominanting relationship.

Unless you just play once in a while, a good relationship that will last takes work,, maturity and and some understanding of the world.

Unless of course it is a fetish or a complex, i cannot imagine the majority of 18 or 19 year old's, who are now legally out of school and  legally out of their parents control  for the first time in  their lives to walk into a relationship where they are more controlled then ever.

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:24:00 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

I wouldn’t trust anyone with my finances but myself so any Dominant wanting control over those aspects of my life is in for a fuck off type response. Why is it people think that every D/s relationship is a TPE one where the submissive partner has no autonomy at all? The question is unrealistic as I don’t know many people handing over all their financial dealings to a Master and if they are then they are idiots because those relationships are just as susceptible to ending as any other.


Actually, plenty of people hand their money over and it's not a BDSM thing. How many vanilla couples have one partner who handles the money primarily because they are better at it?

Nor is Rabbit saying that every d/s relationship is a TPE. He is simply asking a question about TPEs. Big difference.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:32:40 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		I think it is extremely important for every adult to understand basic skills like banking, bill paying etc. With that in mind I think it would be a wonderful idea to teach and assist rather than take control of finances. If control is taken in consideration to a very young person I would hope that it wouldn't be done blindly, rather that the s-type is still aware of when and how things are being paid.I've seen women of my mothers generation that are suddenly widowed or divorced find themselves in a situation they simply are not equipped to handle because they were either never taught or never put to use the knowledge. If there is an s-type that is simply abysmal at taking care of finances again I would suggest teaching over taking control.  If the skills are in place and the s is content having the D take control then so be it, I just think it is a huge part of growing up and becoming an adult. When I was in my early 20's I would have gladly handed over, thrust, abandoned my finances to anyone willing to deal with them. I also would have been left not knowing how to save or what to save. At the age I am now (42) I'm not sure if that is something I could release control of, the person would have to be awfully skilled in handling accounts, stocks & bonds & IRA's etc.It isn't just money, it is quite literally my future and well being (monetarily). I guess I have a see-saw answer too

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:33:48 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Sorry it’s my opinion that the question is one of those ‘let’s say for example ones’ hypothetical nonsense that isn’t going to relate to anyone’s personal experience anyway. No one hands over their financial details and says “Please Master I don’t know how to save money please help me. Bank Master? What’s a bank account I’ve not heard of one of them?”

Do you seriously think young people have no clue about personal finances and based on what?

Hands up Masters that want to be Bank Managers now or personal accountants? If that is your kink I suppose



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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:36:18 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub


Yes I think it can be. If someone never learns how to manage their own life, they are stranded if anything should happen to the person who was managing it.


This is why I am such a believer in what I expressed in the thread on protecting one's property - My Master used his control over me to teach me to think, analyze, and take care of myself.  When he is no longer on this earth, I will have been equipped with the tools to continue to live as he taught me to live.  In doing so, I will still be serving him and won't be left in a helpless or lost state.

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:36:47 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Actually, plenty of people hand their money over and it's not a BDSM thing. How many vanilla couples have one partner who handles the money primarily because they are better at it?



So the specific D/s relevance is exactly?

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:39:39 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
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Status: offline 		I think a master who chooses to take someone on at a young age needs to understand what that means- in their stage of life, maturity, sense of self and processing.

In fact everyone should understand what making a commitment with that person will mean in regards to where they are and where they will be going on in life.  It's simply that at a young age a lot more/bigger/flashier/frequent life changes are a LOT more likely than at any other point in time.

So know what you are getting into and prepare for it.  It's expecting things to go otherwise and being upset when they do that causes the real problems.

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:40:59 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Sorry it’s my opinion that the question is one of those ‘let’s say for example ones’ hypothetical nonsense that isn’t going to relate to anyone’s personal experience anyway. No one hands over their financial details and says “Please Master I don’t know how to save money please help me. Bank Master? What’s a bank account I’ve not heard of one of them?”

Do you seriously think young people have no clue about personal finances and based on what?

Hands up Masters that want to be Bank Managers now or personal accountants? If that is your kink I suppose




The kink for controlling people's money is alive and well. And yes, some submissives and slave would like their owner to control their money, and their owners do. I don't know if you've read them, but in many threads people have stated that while they work, their paychecks are handed over to their owner or their owner has complete control of their bank account.

As far as I'm concerned, Valyraen does have a large degree of control over my money. It's in my name but if we need something and he decides it should come from my account, unless I've got a good reason for it to be otherwise, it does.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:43:36 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Actually, plenty of people hand their money over and it's not a BDSM thing. How many vanilla couples have one partner who handles the money primarily because they are better at it?



So the specific D/s relevance is exactly?


It's the active control. I would suspect in many of those reasons, the reasoning for it is that one partner is better. In a d/s or TPE relationship the reason could simply be "Because I'm the owner and I want to control the money". Rabbit is asking if people will decide to not control that aspect of a sub/slave's life for the good of the sub/slave.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to FullCircle)
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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:44:31 PM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Sorry it’s my opinion that the question is one of those ‘let’s say for example ones’ hypothetical nonsense that isn’t going to relate to anyone’s personal experience anyway. No one hands over their financial details and says “Please Master I don’t know how to save money please help me. Bank Master? What’s a bank account I’ve not heard of one of them?”

Do you seriously think young people have no clue about personal finances and based on what?

Hands up Masters that want to be Bank Managers now or personal accountants? If that is your kink I suppose



I didn't know jack shit about budgeting or investing when I was 19 and there is a vast difference between my knowledge now and then.

And given that your reply so far is the only one screaming "Oh this is so irrelevant", you might want to reconsider your opinion based on fact.

(As well as drop the "My Kink is OK, but Your Kink of Giving Up Control of Your Money Fucking Sucks and Is Stupid" attitude)

That's my opinion.

Edited to Add : (You might try thinking a bit and realizing there is a greater philosophical question here that goes past the details of the example I used to illustrate it)

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 1/12/2008 1:47:00 PM >

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Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Control, Young Subs/Slaves, and Individual Growth - 1/12/2008 1:48:59 PM   
touchofeuphoria


Posts: 33
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quote:

I think there is still an equation at work in regards to personal growth that involves time and experience. The more passage of the time, the more experience and knowledge you are able to accumulate. Hence, time ultimately presents a limit as to how much a person can experience and learn.


I wouldn't go as far as saying time presets an actual limit, but MOST younger people won't be as experienced and will show that with the things they say and their actions.

quote:

For example, taking control over someone's personal finances before they have an opportunity to gain experience with managing complex finances can have a repercussion on the growth of someone that isn't present with someone who has spent years managing their own finances.


That is a VERY good point, and I agree with this.


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