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RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/30/2008 6:12:50 AM   
DS4DUMMIES


Posts: 180
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Third person? .....that's old and tired.....I am not from the "old leather"...I'm from the "new cosmos" school of dominance...I practice Steven Hawking Dominance...and require MY slaves to speak in anything from the 4th...to 11th person.

_____________________________

"When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly.” Patrick Overton

(in reply to schoenekitty)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/30/2008 6:18:57 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

Third person? .....that's old and tired.....I am not from the "old leather"...I'm from the "new cosmos" school of dominance...I practice Steven Hawking Dominance...and require MY slaves to speak in anything from the 4th...to 11th person.


Stephen Hawking? If you know about his health....you better switch to something else
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking

_____________________________

~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

(in reply to DS4DUMMIES)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/30/2008 6:24:38 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		who it serves..........don't make me have to beat you again.

MasterRon

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to backseatbebe)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/30/2008 6:33:21 AM   
MySweetSubmssive


Posts: 1139
Joined: 2/7/2006
From: Lehigh Valley, PA
Status: offline 		FR

I adore third person speech, when done well.  When on the cusp of pursuing dominance, I met an immaculate submissive who used this language beautifully.  In my mind, the pleasure and purpose of third person speech is to 1) create a mental bondage for that person, 2) make it such that the submissive is, with every utterance, genuflecting, 3) aid the erasure of self.

I find phrasing such as "this slave" and "this one" to be clumsy, inelegant and to *reinforce* the self.  It's onerous and non-pleasing.  A positive example of what I like:  If I ask if the submissive is going to watch the Super Bowl next weekend, he might say, "Sports are not watched, Ma'am."  Short, elegant, to the point.  There is a receptive passivity I appreciate -- made better in that person's case because he was anything but passive. 

MSS

< Message edited by MySweetSubmssive -- 1/30/2008 6:34:47 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, James, you're such a cunning linguist."

--Miss Moneypenny

(in reply to DS4DUMMIES)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/30/2008 7:50:24 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Damn - Check out day in Vegas - Another GREAT trip hi-lighted by a visit to Lady C, owner, proprietor of the wonderful store, 'Lady C Leather' on West Sahara . Although having beth fitted for a new set of cuffs wasn't as much fun as fitting her for the harness we purchased when last we visited, it was still great to see her and W - the on site 'tailor'. She's expanded her store and its filled with great stuff. Best of all - while you wait you can have your 'off the rack' selection custom fitted. It is a wonderful experience to go to her shop. A leather store owned and operated by people who are active in the community. We highly recommend a visit if you're in the neighborhood.

But back to the question at hand...
quote:

My master would like me to do it and I don't feel like it's still me talking, like I can't truely express myself honestly and emotionally in this manner... Any thoughts to that as well?


kitty,
My thought is basic and should be the first thought anyone has when giving or receiving an order or request whether from a dominant or Master - WHY?

Heresy? Questioning a Master? Disrespectful? You mean as opposed to questioning him/her on an open forum?

If the answer makes sense to you and the relationship you have or want to have, then by all means comply. If its requested, and you get a response "because I said so!"; you're back to square one regarding issues of trust and/or confidence. There could be a very basic goal or focus and/or commitment.

There was a point made a few pages back about "slipping" and using this form of communication. Well, I guess its always a possibility, but in the 5 years that beth's been required to do so, she hasn't slipped once to my knowledge, or at least has never "slipped" and been pointed at and ridiculed. That's usually a tactic taken by the one handed web-surfer crowd; whom I'm sure would "vomit" witnessing many other activities that we engage in regularly. If it bothers you, or your submission requires universal validation and acceptance, submit privately and not in a public forum.

The practice of 3rd person speech requires focus and commitment. Obviously its not for everyone and shouldn't be considered a benchmark of any hierarchy of submission or slavery. As part of our 24/7 dynamic it serves a purpose. As an isolated aspect of a relationship it doesn't provide any insight. I've said that 24/7 isn't 24/7 physical intercourse. You can take that literally or figuratively. It is 24/7 'foreplay' interrupted by physical recovery from the 'intercourse' of all manner and sort. One of the purposes of third person speech with us is pointed to constant undercurrent generating a desired mental and emotional dynamic. It required, and requires, beth to have represent as my submissive. Hearing her is a constant reference to our commitment to each other. It serves our dynamic very nicely.

But it has to make sense for YOU and be part of your relationship goal. Without that, its nothing more than the shallow, silly tactic to imply a dominance or submission that doesn't match the rest of the picture being presented; as others have stated representing their beliefs. Their opinion, like ours, should be respected and considered.

Whether its origin was from the 'Old Guard', 'Gor', or part of the 'collard slave ritual' initiation of the Royal Ancient Order of the Swiss Chard doesn't matter. Its a tool which results in the submissive to think and focus prior to communicating. Its a shame that a similar, easy to use, tool isn't as readily available for the dominant side of the flogger. 

Good luck! We can see Maria del Rey from our place. Maybe we can speak more of this, and you can speak directly to beth regarding her feelings on the manner, in person at the next South Bay Munch group get together in Torrance?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/30/2008 8:13:09 AM >

(in reply to schoenekitty)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/30/2008 8:07:32 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

Third person? .....that's old and tired.....I am not from the "old leather"...I'm from the "new cosmos" school of dominance...I practice Steven Hawking Dominance...and require MY slaves to speak in anything from the 4th...to 11th person.


Stephen Hawking? If you know about his health....you better switch to something else
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking


It's the mind...NOT the body.



(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/30/2008 8:14:12 AM   
LadyLauren


Posts: 2
Joined: 1/21/2008
Status: offline 		It is a mind-fuck, as has been mentioned. It takes the 'person' out of the person, which is what appeals for slaves. Submissives are not slaves, which is why it's hard for them to understand.

I have been both a submissive and a slave. As a submissive, 3rd person was a hard limit. I just could not overcome my distaste. As a slave, it became a natural form of speech that I would slip into, as I felt more Owned...it was beautiful. :-)

(in reply to childoftheshadow)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/31/2008 11:03:31 AM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeggyO

Out of curiosity, do you know any of the people who have created www.bornslaves.com? Have you had personal experiences or interactions with them?


I don't know any of these people on a personal level. Nor do I need to know them personally in order to evaluate the website and conclude that it is not what MistressNoName claims it to be.

Be clear, I'm not calling Slave Master "fraudulant" since his website does not portay itself as representative of "Old Guard" Leather. I'm simply (and clearly) stating that other people's portrayal of the website (or them, based upon the website) as representative of "Old Guard" is completely contrary to the documented factual record.

This is a website largely dedicated to "New Age" leather spiritualism. And while there's absolutely nothing wrong with folks incorporating spiritualism in their BDSM, there is nothing to suggest that "New Age" spiritualism even existed in the "Old Guard" era, much less that it played any meaningful role in their society.

Similarly, the website was offered as an example of "Old Guard" training methods that utilized third person speech by a poster on this board. This is also something that, if true, seems to have escaped the documented factual record (and thus I feel justified in concluding that it's not true). I don't see where the website makes such a claim, but if it does then I would consider that a fabrication.

quote:


I know that Slave Master has been very involved in the gay leather scene for many years and I believe he was one of the founding members of Butchmann's.


Master Steve is the founder of Butchmanns Academy, though Slave Master is an instructor. He has legitimately been involved in the gay leather scene for some years (his website says fourteen). None of which changes the fact that the New Age leather represented by his website bears no resemblance to the era commonly referred to as "Old Guard". Seriously, it's impossible to conceive that any of the accepted historical accounts of the era failed to mention this.

And frankly, in Slave Master's defense he should not be held accountable for how an anonymous poster to an online community may say about his website. This is not about defending Slave Master who (near as I can tell though I have not read every article at the site) has not made any claim that would require a defense. Misstating other people's positions (such as has evidently been the case with Slave Master) brings undeserved scrutiny upon them, and in this case I believe that an injustice has been done to Slave Master.

quote:


I am curious if your opinion is based on the web site only or if perhaps you have some other knowledge.


My opinion is based upon a cumulative understanding of the "Old Guard" era based upon what recognized Leather historians have written, having personally discussed the topic with a few of those historians, and comparing that to what I've read at the website. Admittedly, I do not consider myself expert on the topic, though well informed and conversant.

John


Rover - whether you believe that "Old Guard" training methods utilize usage of the third person or not, is really beside the point. The fact is that they have and some do still use these methods. I pointed out one example of such training methods which can be viewed on that site and the person who wrote the site is in fact a Leatherman...his spirituality notwithstanding. Many Leather men and women also hold spiritual beliefs. You choose to call those beliefs "new age," I do not. It's really that simple. Incorporating spiritual beliefs and practices into one's leather "practice" does not make that practice "new age." I'm not sure at all where you get that idea from, nor am I interested in knowing. But, Jay Wiseman, Joseph Bean, etc...are not the only authorities on things Leather or "Old Guard," though these folks have certainly contributed a lot to the written record. There are many more who didn't necessarily write a whole lot, yet still also contribute(d) to leather culture.

My original post was simply to point out that the usage of third person speech is not and was not simply something invented by onliners. There is and always has been a realtime component - both for the Goreans and within Leather culture...and as I also pointed out, this is most likely a dying practice.

MNN

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aka Ms Petal - Check Me out on the Web.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/31/2008 11:09:00 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: DS4DUMMIES

Third person? .....that's old and tired.....I am not from the "old leather"...I'm from the "new cosmos" school of dominance...I practice Steven Hawking Dominance...and require MY slaves to speak in anything from the 4th...to 11th person.


Stephen Hawking? If you know about his health....you better switch to something else
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking


It's the mind...NOT the body.





lets ask him.. I am sure it is not that easy ;)


_____________________________

~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/31/2008 11:26:06 AM   
Zaraseeks


Posts: 130
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline 		Not going to read through this whole thread and get caght up in the hijacks, I have never spoken in thrid person (outside of some really bad joking)  But I certainly would if I was collared by someone who asked this.  Note, I would only be collared by someone who had already earned my respect so I would trust that they had good reason.  People I do tend to respect tend to be opposed to this...so I guess thus far its worked out for me!

(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/31/2008 2:15:50 PM   
CelticPrince


Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		kitty,

John below has it correct, however I am of the mind that it is growing in the D/s path.
It allows the dymnamic to continue in a low impact mode. Grins, keep at it, and after awhile it will become very easy to utilize.

CP

(in reply to schoenekitty)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/31/2008 2:27:21 PM   
FRSguy


Posts: 653
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		Do they sound like Yoda when they get old?

(in reply to backseatbebe)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/31/2008 3:17:38 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

Rover - whether you believe that "Old Guard" training methods utilize usage of the third person or not, is really beside the point. The fact is that they have and some do still use these methods.


And so I've simply asked for your references that support this contention.  You've stated as factual, and I know for a fact that neither you nor I was around to see it for ourselves.  I also know for a fact that none of the folks at the website you forwarded were around to see for themselves.  Further, I did not see anything that they said to imply that they have asserted third person speech to be part of "Old Guard" training.
 
So you're right... the issue is not whether I believe it to be true.  The issue is whether you have any factual justification for alleging that it's true.  You can still believe it to be true even without factual documentation.  But that's not factual... it's called "faith".

quote:


I pointed out one example of such training methods which can be viewed on that site and the person who wrote the site is in fact a Leatherman...his spirituality notwithstanding.


You asserted third person speech to be an "Old Guard" training method, not a training method used by any Leatherman of any era.  There is a difference.

quote:


Many Leather men and women also hold spiritual beliefs. You choose to call those beliefs "new age," I do not. It's really that simple.


I did not create the term "New Age" as it refers to spiritualism, nor did I define it.  If you'd like to learn more about it, a Google search of "New Age Spirituality" will yield 430,000 links.  You might find this link helpful in understanding what "New Age" spirituality is, and the term is appropriately applied to the website you provided.
 
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DMUS_enUS223US223&q=new+age+spirituality

quote:


Incorporating spiritual beliefs and practices into one's leather "practice" does not make that practice "new age."


I never said that it did.

quote:


I'm not sure at all where you get that idea from, nor am I interested in knowing.


Ever in search of answers, I see.

quote:


But, Jay Wiseman, Joseph Bean, etc...are not the only authorities on things Leather or "Old Guard," though these folks have certainly contributed a lot to the written record. There are many more who didn't necessarily write a whole lot, yet still also contribute(d) to leather culture.


I'll ask again (and have lost count as to how many times I've asked thus far) for you to kindly provide a credible factual source for your assertion that third person speech was part of "Old Guard" training methods.  Continued sophistry is no substitute for a simple source.

quote:


My original post was simply to point out that the usage of third person speech is not and was not simply something invented by onliners. There is and always has been a realtime component - both for the Goreans and within Leather culture...and as I also pointed out, this is most likely a dying practice.

MNN


Please provide a real time source for the use of third person speech in Gor.  To the best of my knowledge, the origin for Gor would be fictional novels.  And real time Gorean communities do not (to the best of knowledge) predate online Gorean communities (ie: the practice was developed online).  But this is not a discussion about Gor (please, by all that is holy, don't anyone turn this into a discussion about Gor).
 
In order for third person speech to be a "dying practice" in Leather, it had to have been alive in the first place.  If it has a pedigree such that you claim, it should be easy enough to provide your source.  If you have no credible source, how did you learn about it?  An internet chatroom?
 
Seriously, you're not a journalist protecting a source and we're not going to find you in contempt if you can't provide one.  Let's just lay our cards on the table so we know whether this is fact or fantasy.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to MistressNoName)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 1/31/2008 9:26:37 PM   
MistressNoName


Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		John,

Give it a rest. I offered a source which didn't satisfy you. So be it. Cest la vie. Believe what you like, as will I. What I stated comes from perusing many different resources which I didn't write down because I'm not doing a Phd on the topic as perhaps you are. I happened to like the bornslaves site, so I bookmarked it. Anyone who takes a look at the site can judge for themselves. If you have any other gripes with me, write me off board. Let's not disrupt this thread any further.

Sorry kitty, for this ridiculous digression. I simply wanted to point out that John's assertion that third-person speech is mainly an internet invention, or however he put it, is not so.


MNN

_____________________________

aka Ms Petal - Check Me out on the Web.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 2/1/2008 6:44:02 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

John,

Give it a rest. I offered a source which didn't satisfy you. So be it. Cest la vie. Believe what you like, as will I. What I stated comes from perusing many different resources which I didn't write down because I'm not doing a Phd on the topic as perhaps you are. I happened to like the bornslaves site, so I bookmarked it. Anyone who takes a look at the site can judge for themselves. If you have any other gripes with me, write me off board. Let's not disrupt this thread any further.


If you make public statements as if they are fact, but are factually untrue, please do expect to be called upon to document your sources.  I'm sure you'll agree that information is only as good as its source, and when you share something that's out of step with documented history people have a right to evaluate the source for context. 
 
This isn't a billboard where you can say whatever you like and everyone is forced to read it without comment.  You don't want the scrutiny?  Don't say it in such a public fashion.

I don't care if I'm the only one interested in the factual truth.  I believe there is far too much crap spewed about on the internet in regards to BDSM histroy; told and retold like ancient myths.  Particularly so as it relates to the "Old Guard".  Those that have an interest in the factual truth (even if they be few in number) have a right to have it appear alongside, and in repudiation of, internet fantasy.

quote:


Sorry kitty, for this ridiculous digression. I simply wanted to point out that John's assertion that third-person speech is mainly an internet invention, or however he put it, is not so.


I'm still waiting for that point to be made.  All you did was send a link to an internet website that provided no mention (that I could find) of "Old Guard" use of third person speech (as was your original assertion).  You may as well  have provided a link to CastleRealm.
 
Now, you can either learn something yourself or not.  That's your choice, and you have every right to remain consensually ignorant on the subject.  But don't delude yourself into thinking that you can or will be able to spew fantasy as fact, and not be called to task for it.  It doesn't often happen on these boards.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 2/1/2008 6:49:13 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to MistressNoName)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 2/1/2008 7:14:03 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So you have two things to decide.  Who is the dominant in the relationship.  You or him?
If it is you, then you do what you want.
 
If it is him, then you have to decide whether you can submit to what he wants and ifnot, explain it to him and don't submit.
Submission isn't always easy, it's hard work and you don't always get to do what you want and what feels comfortable - it's about submitting to the desires of another, someone whos decision is what is more important than what you think you can or can't do.
 
the.dark.

 
Awesome post, in my opinion, and should be copied/pasted into about 90% of the threads here. 


i agree! Sometimes it is like "how many definitions can we have for the word submission"? And then "How many people will agree with my definition so i can prove my Dominant wrong"?
Semantic are everything..why not ask this question: "How can i be more comfortable complying to my Master's directives"?
 
Either that or just admit to role-playing to spice up your sex life, because i will bet money i don't have that "Bedroom D/s and M/s" is what 90% of CM's participants are all about. And nothing wrong with that but for crying out loud - be honest about it~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 2/1/2008 7:16:22 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelic

~fr~ ~disclaimer~ i have not read any responses.  i apologize if this is a repeat.

A couple on here (Mercnbeth) are Master/slave (but oh so much more imo).  Merc requires beth to not only speak in 3rd person but write in 3rd person.  Honestly, beth is almost the only person i have seen that carries it off with beauty and grace.  From what i have seen, for her it is far more than just a "fad" or a cool way to type.  i highly recommend that you seek out their opinions.

Excellent advice. i would go so far to say other valuable info would be learned from them as well~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to angelic)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 2/1/2008 8:07:00 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I don't particularly like it either, but I suppose I could put up with it from a submissive. If she goes 4th person (omniscient 3rd person) I'd lose it.


Yes, the ethereal realm...very difficult for rope~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 2/1/2008 8:18:59 AM   
trusted


Posts: 6
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline 		third person speech sucks but as a slave if told to use it then it is a given.  there are times though that it does slip out naturally but they are far and few between

< Message edited by trusted -- 2/1/2008 8:20:42 AM >

(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Who is required to, or requires his/her slave to sp... - 2/1/2008 8:20:29 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

(Back to your regularly scheduled program)


Can we return to our regularly scheduled person, too?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 100
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