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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 11:22:24 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		RL Blair has also got to take his fair share of the blame for the current housing situation. if i recall correctly he didnt oppose majors reforms of the right to buy, as he was scared it may cost him votes in the 97 election. Ironically i found the statement below online

< The result has been one of the biggest scandals of the Blair era. Homelessness doubled, household on waiting lists rose from 1 million in 1999 to 1.7 million in 2006. Incredibly, this is far worse than under Thatcher.
At the end of the Thatcher period in 1990, the Tories were still building just over 14,000 Council houses a year. By 2000 Council house building had fallen to – just 87 a year.
In 10 years under Thatcher 400,000 Council houses were built. In 10 years under Blair it was down to just 4,000 – 1% of the Tory total. >

Whose web site do you think i found that on ? The Tory party ? Camerons ? The Sun ?  No suprise suprise ( sorry Cilla ) i found it on Micheal Meachers web site, You remember him, that well known marxist MP who said second homes should be banned. Laughable that he owned close to a dozen properties himself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,,425372,00.html

This is my problem with the current Labour party.... lets all be socialists ( except ourselves )

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 11:38:24 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Pardon me I'm from across the pond and while I've vsited merry olde on a number of occasions this has never been clear to me.

Why aren't apartments and homes being built by anybody but the government? If the situation is as dire as you've made it out to be why not buy up a farm on the edge of a particularly expensive urban area and build townhouses or houses on it? In the US people have been making a tidy profit doing that for an awful long time. Last time I was in London there certainly was open land out past Windsor that would make fine subdivisions.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 11:42:27 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Houses are built by other people - and sold.  And they make a huge profit.  But 'affordable' housing is a different matter altogether.  New homes crop up constantly, but they are no use to those on a low wage etc.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 11:45:06 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


Well, and I dont have exact demographics or census reports to hand, isnt Brixton largely Afro Caribbean populated? Maybe even 90% AC populated? Which would sort of make it inevitable that AC people would be responsible for most of the crime?

E


Lady E, Lambeth Council have a web site, i suspect you can find census details for the borough as a whole. At a guess maybe a third or more are from ethnic minorities, but these are from all over the world. There are hundreds of different languages spoken, its likely these days there are more Africans than Afro Carribeans.  At the time of the riots i would guess only a quarter of the population were from ethnic minorities.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 11:48:22 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		PS53, don't even get me started on Labour! I've many examples of the abandonment of principles of so much of the party. I'm not trying to push any party's line, just saying what I honestly think.

I've just noted that black men are SIX times more likely to be stopped and searched than white men and Asians two times. Last year, there were 850,000 s+s carried out. 11% resulted in arrests, no figures were released for how many of those arrested were actually charged. I suspect that's because it is very low. Stop and search isn't about finding criminals, its about raising the "temperature" on the street for a short period of time. Can someone tell me how it benefits us?

Just another tool in the police's armoury? Maybe. But if one section of the population are singled out to such an extent with no demonstrable record of succesful prosecutions - or even UNsuccessful ones, we have to ask if that is the kind of society we want to live in - and if we're wise, we'll also question what the outcome of such actions is to be. No, this isn't in the league of Palestine just yet but building bridges, this ain't.


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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 11:51:45 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Pardon me I'm from across the pond and while I've vsited merry olde on a number of occasions this has never been clear to me.

Why aren't apartments and homes being built by anybody but the government? If the situation is as dire as you've made it out to be why not buy up a farm on the edge of a particularly expensive urban area and build townhouses or houses on it? In the US people have been making a tidy profit doing that for an awful long time. Last time I was in London there certainly was open land out past Windsor that would make fine subdivisions.


The simple answer is the cost of both land and housing. To give an example of how high it is, i live by the beach, a beach hut ( wooden shed basically ), no more than 8` by 6` sold last summer for £11,000 and that is by no means the most expensive. The other reason is planning laws. Some councils wont allow new buildings on greenfield sites.

http://www.beach-huts.co.uk/huts/huts_sale.html

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:00:05 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Domken,
Private housebuilders pay massive prices for land with residential permission, then leave it to moulder, thus protecting the value of the houses they currently have on sale elsewhere. They are motivated by profit, not the general good. A Rightist, monetarist zealot created this mess but it has been considered political suicide to correct it. Now, post one slump and two booms, we as a nation are financially hitched to the vagaries of house prices. Debt has been repackged so often no-one knows who owes whom how much.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:08:57 PM   
ottRopesandKnots


Posts: 105
Joined: 9/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Crime figures should determine who is searched not balancing the books.


WTF?  Crime figures shouldn't determine who is searched, the relevant need for a specific individual to be searched should be the determination.  If the police feel that an individual requires searching they damn well better not quibble about filling out a report afterwards to explain why.  I don't want the police to be able to just search people at will and without real cause, at least a report creates some vague semblance of accountability.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:13:14 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Domken,
Now, post one slump and two booms, we as a nation are financially hitched to the vagaries of house prices. Debt has been repackged so often no-one knows who owes whom how much.


yep - and this is what happens when one stops creating wealth and instead moves paper around for an economy; not so much taking in one another's washing, but it amounts to the same result - a house of cards which is set to fall at the faintest breeze, and there's a gale coming in....

E

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:28:06 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Its just been announced that the PC lunacy of requiring the police to fill out a detailed document everytime they stopped anyone is to be abandoned.
It was only introduced a couple of years ago because the minorities felt victimised.



I see. You'd like to give the police the power to stop and search, without recourse, those whom you fear. Marvellous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The reason for stopping is the increase in gun and knife crime which itself is a consequence of PC attitudes to Law and Order.



Yes, let's impede the civil liberties of the vast majority, who are innocent of no crime I might add, in order to satisfy your personal view of the world which is quite probably underpinned by reading too many tabloids.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Carnt help larfing I carnt



The irony eh. You think you're doing England a favour, when in fact you're wanting to walk all over the English spirit of tolerance and privacy.

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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:33:54 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

... the civil liberties of the vast majority, who are innocent of no crime I might add


errr, Gent? ... shurely shome mishtake?

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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:37:26 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Man, all that "PC" crap has you guys on a path to National suicide.



'Thing is, Popeye, Political Correctness is an American concept, and many here think it is decidely unEnglish and is another example of the sort of American culture we really don't want, e.g. McDonalds etc.

Personally, I have more of a problem with the attempted use of Political Correctness as a tool to direct a discussion away from the facts and towards tired old labels. I'm largely indifferent to its origins, meaning and implications.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:43:25 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

... the civil liberties of the vast majority, who are innocent of no crime I might add


errr, Gent? ... shurely shome mishtake?


Ahh yes.......see, the board has turned my mind........sentences that make no sense like "The Jews are the people who are not to be blamed for nothing"...Jack the Ripper would be proud.

You know what I mean...guilty of no crime....

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/30/2008 12:46:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 12:56:04 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I do indeed. I also agree with the whole PC thing. I'm more sick of hearing people moan about "PC gawn mad" than I ever was of objections to black coffee or bin-liners - if they were ever real. It's simply progress that as society evolves we become more aware of how to deal with each other. That such changes are labelled negative just baffles me.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 1:02:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I do indeed. I also agree with the whole PC thing. I'm more sick of hearing people moan about "PC gawn mad" than I ever was of objections to black coffee or bin-liners - if they were ever real.



'Couldn't agree more, there's nothing so conformist and downright dull as yelling "PC!"

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 1:16:24 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Here's PC gone mad

We have a forced mariage unit, brought into being to prevent forced marriages in the Asian communities. Every year, from Bradford alone, 300 girls go "on holiday" to their cultural homelands and dont return. The forced marriage unit has issued posters and information to the schools - yet they wont issue them for fear of causing offence to parents.

We have active practitioners of female genital mutilation at work today in several British cities - this is illegal, yet the authorities do nothing, for fear of offending against "cultural differences". The Asian lady who runs a charity to stop it said last week that we Brits are far too sensitive about this sort of thing.

And then we had the announcement the other week that popular folktale "The Three Little Pigs" is to be rewritten, since the presence of pigs as the characters was potentially offensive to Muslims. Meanwhile, not a word from the Muslim community, who are likely still laughing at how daft we've become. Or still laughing at "Winterval".

E

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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 2:30:46 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		The thing is, where is the "PC" in this situation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Here's PC gone mad

We have a forced mariage unit, brought into being to prevent forced marriages in the Asian communities. Every year, from Bradford alone, 300 girls go "on holiday" to their cultural homelands and dont return. The forced marriage unit has issued posters and information to the schools - yet they wont issue them for fear of causing offence to parents.


Where is the detail here? Are these materials really adequate? Maybe they are offensive, we just don't know. Could the schools maybe have a better knowledge of their communities than the police? That seems likely, as they deal with them daily, whereas the police deal mostly with criminals and as we know, often lack the awareness to approach the wider public with sensitivity. I'm sure thousands of girls go on holiday to Asia every year and return untroubled. Should their parents be stigmatised before everyone else?


quote:


We have active practitioners of female genital mutilation at work today in several British cities - this is illegal, yet the authorities do nothing, for fear of offending against "cultural differences".


The authorities actually probably do nothing because they can't persuade victims to give evidence and/or lack of witnesses. As horrifying as this practise is, stamping it out permanently will require the cooperation of the affected communities and there are also accompanying health risks with driving it even further underground. What's "mad" about proceeding with caution?

quote:


And then we had the announcement the other week that popular folktale "The Three Little Pigs" is to be rewritten, since the presence of pigs as the characters was potentially offensive to Muslims. Meanwhile, not a word from the Muslim community, who are likely still laughing at how daft we've become. Or still laughing at "Winterval".

E


I'd attach no credence to this whatever. Except perhaps to mention that as a five-year old kid in school in Central London, I was handed books like Little Black Sambo and Little Black Quosha. Incredible as it seems today, teachers thought nothing of using such material to teach classes of diverse children to read. There was a whole host of stuff like this, B'rer Rabbit and all that other crap.

That wouldn't happen now - and I call that progress. Let's not be fooled by ultra-conservatives - who really have other agendas - into trying to roll back all the good that's come of applying the lessons of the last few decades. That's the real social engineering. The Sixties happened. New people were empowered and given voices. Things have changed. Let's deal with it and move on.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 2:46:55 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Look RL - I'm part of a minority covered by "hate crime", one indeed that is a target for all. I'm all for driving out ridiculous prejudice and discrimination, but there is a limit past which our rightfully increased sensitivity becomes just as ridiculous.

In particular it becomes ridiculous when we are afraid to apply our laws - laws mind you - because we're worried about offending cultural sensibilities.

If I arranged for my daughter to be mutilated and/or arranged her kidnap and unlawful imprisonment and/or beat her for having the wrong boyfriend, I'd be up in court so fast it'd make my head spin.

What we need is for everyone to be treated equitably - no special cases, the law applied without fear or favour. Now I appreciate the police have a reputation to deal with in this regard, but they are making efforts to change and have indeed changed a lot because the likes of me sits on Independent Advisory Groups, harassing them to change attitudes, tactics and strategies.

But just as I would not insist that they should not investigate a trans person who has broken the law, for fear of being thought transphobic or seen as harassing that person for their status, I absolutely insist that where the law has been broken by a cultural or ethnic minority member, action must be taken. And it isnt being taken because we've developed this attitude that some groups are off limits, too awkward and dangerous from a PR stance to deal with.

We cannot and will not build a unified nation or a happy society until and unless everyone is treated equitably.

E

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 2:58:22 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1739392.stm

quote:

Muggings in London rose by 31% in the year up to September 2001. Two of the boroughs named in the summer as the worst in the country for muggings were in the capital - Lambeth and Hackney
.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-5949100-details/164+muggings+a+day+in+London/article.do
quote:

A report by independent watchdogs shows that, although street crime has come down from its record high levels of early 2002, it is still higher than at any other time in recent history. It will say that the massive effort to reduce muggings and robberies, involving hundreds of thousands of hours of police time, has produced only a 15 per cent reduction in London.
Scotland Yard figures show that Lambeth is the worst of the 32 boroughs for street crime and that, per head of population, Richmond-is the least dangerous.


Brixton is in Lambeth OK
It therefore follows that under the guise of PC crapola stop and search should take place in Richmond at least to the same extent as Lambeth.
The usual soft soaps have blamed poverty as the root cause of violent crime when by any standard people were poorer in the 1930s and there was less violent street crime.
The difference? The legal system knew how to deal with the criminally violent darlings...and did it...hard. The soft soaps have stopped all that and still cant see that their stupidity has made things worse.

Silly me, I've just realised another difference...we didnt have large shall we say ethnic  minority communities in the 30's.
Am I wrong ?



< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/30/2008 3:06:28 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/30/2008 3:09:59 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Seeksfemslave


I don't think economic standing is the only factor... but at least in my area it matches higher crime rates. I am only saying that maybe police should use economics as a way to assign manpower.

I don’t have statistics so this is a guess but I’d bet those areas in 1930 were still higher in crime then others.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 40
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