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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 11:55:40 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

RL Blair has also got to take his fair share of the blame for the current housing situation. if i recall correctly he didnt oppose majors reforms of the right to buy, as he was scared it may cost him votes in the 97 election. Ironically i found the statement below online

< The result has been one of the biggest scandals of the Blair era. Homelessness doubled, household on waiting lists rose from 1 million in 1999 to 1.7 million in 2006. Incredibly, this is far worse than under Thatcher.
At the end of the Thatcher period in 1990, the Tories were still building just over 14,000 Council houses a year. By 2000 Council house building had fallen to – just 87 a year.
In 10 years under Thatcher 400,000 Council houses were built. In 10 years under Blair it was down to just 4,000 – 1% of the Tory total. >

Whose web site do you think i found that on ? The Tory party ? Camerons ? The Sun ?  No suprise suprise ( sorry Cilla ) i found it on Micheal Meachers web site, You remember him, that well known marxist MP who said second homes should be banned. Laughable that he owned close to a dozen properties himself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,,425372,00.html

This is my problem with the current Labour party.... lets all be socialists ( except ourselves )


I'm sorry but the increase in homelessness hasn't got much to do with the right to buy or reforms.

Homelessness doubled due to local authorities taking so long to settle Housing Benefit claims, affecting not just people on benefits but also many working people on low incomes.

This effectively removed private landlords from renting rooms and flats to people claiming Housing Benefit for all or part of their rent.

Would you rent a room or your flat to someone and not only be prepared to wait weeks, months and in a few London boroughs anything up to a year before receiving any rental income? Would you, as a private landlord, also be willing to have the Fair Rent Officer review your rent and the tenancy and would you be prepared to accept up to 40% less than the rent you are asking for?

I agree Politesub53 it was better under Thatcher.

I work with the homeless here in London, and a couple of times a month I go out in the early hours of the morning with a CAT team helping to give out CAT numbers to the street homeless and rough sleepers so they can be regarded as 'officially' homeless.

Obtaining a CAT number isn't easy. You must be (1) sleeping in a public place such as a street, (2) be lying down horizontally on the ground, (3) be asleep or have just woken up from sleep, and (4) CAT numbers are only issued between 1am and 6am. Oh, and a CAT team must see you sleeping at the same location on at least two different occasions usually around 10 days apart.

What is disturbing is that more elderly people are found sleeping rough.

There are around 3,500 adults sleeping rough every night on the streets of inner London boroughs. It is estimated that around 25-30% of these are of Polish or Eastern European origin. This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more sleeping on the sofas of friends, living in bed and breakfast or temporary accommodation, sleeping on public transport, backpacker hostels, and so on. These figures do not include children (minors) sleeping rough as no count or study has been done.

All the homeless charities in London such as Shelter, CRISIS, St Mungo's are trying to expand their work with new projects, especially in boroughs in Central and inner London, but most - especially Westminster - are unwilling to cooperate and Wsetminster makes it perfectly clear that homeless people are not welcome in their borough.

This to me is a very clear example of politicians refusing to take responsibility to deal with issues and problems they have created and to lay the blame on the homeless people themselves. Many of the street homeless in Central London are not entitled to benefits as they do not have an address or bank account, and so they need facilities such as day centres and food handouts in order to survive. There is a severe shortage of such facilities in inner London, especially in Westminster.

Is it any wonder then that there's so much begging in the street? But what you're getting also in London are other homeless people living in hostels in Central London begging to get money for alcohol and drugs, then you get other addicts travelling into Central London for free on the 'bendy buses' and begging, and even an idiot can work out that this is where you get street crime.

What doesn't help the situation is that you've got the tabloid press and right wing media (and I'm talking here about populist media figures like Jon Gaunt) labelling and stereotyping 'the homeless' and calling them all benefit scroungers, crack addicts, junkies, alcoholics and this creates more social stigma.

Then you've got the problems, and these are very real problems, of organized criminals from Eastern Europe who are already here - extortion, robberies of migrant workers from Poland, Lithuania, people trafficking either for illegal immigration or prostitution, drugs, and now the Romanian style gypsy street beggars using children to obtain money.

At the last CRISIS Open Christmas I raised these issues with people working in the Deputy Prime Minister's Office putting forward a proposal for the setting up of the rental of cheap or disused office space to provide temporary accommodation for the street homeless and migrant workers in Central London to enable them to find work and raise enough money to find alternative accommodation. I was told 'we are doing enough already' and that the migrant workers 'have no recourse to public funds'.

Oh right. I guess that makes criminal recourse to the funds of the average working person in the street okay then, doesn't it?

I've written three articles about these issues and submitted them to different magazines, all have rejected the articles.

And what have the politicians come up with? The stop and search laws.

Fat lot of good that's going to do now, isn't it?

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(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 12:12:12 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
In Brixton a few years ago it was reported that over 90% of street violence was carried out by blacks.
The response: stop publishing the reports.
This was at the time of the Brixton riot.

Are we ever going to see the sources of these statements?

Believe it or not I actually made a mistake.. I should have said that over 90% of street incidents in LONDON that involved violence took place in Brixton.
Thats a relief I feel much better now, cleared the air and all that.
Do you forgive me ?
adding:
http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr189/notes.htm
quote:

The statement by Metropolitan Police commissioner Paul Condon 'that very many of the perpetrators of muggings are very young black
people', was seized upon by the Tory press as proof of the criminality of young Afro-Caribbeans.
It is not surprising that the Sun and the Daily Star had a field day with Condon's claim that between 70 and 80 percent of muggings are carried out by young blacks. However even The Guardian was full of praise for Condon's 'courage and honesty' in tackling an issue that the paper had previously held to be too sensitive' for fear of upsetting 'good race relations'.


quote:

this is a gem but it is the Socialist Wotsit after all
The entrenched racism of the police force and blacks' mistrust of the police mean that blacks are far less likely to report a crime against them than a white person. This is hardly surprising when you consider cases like the recent arrest of a black man who went to the police station to report that his car had been stolen only to be detained as an illegal immigrant.


Fuck my boots he he he he he he he


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/31/2008 12:37:47 PM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 12:57:29 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Pathetic.

Unlike you, clearly, I do live in London.  It's 600 square miles in size with 7.5m people. Now do you expect anyone to believe that 90% of violent crime all takes place in one small part of it? 

What's more, I can't see why you think you support your argument with your quote. Allow me to put back the part you have cut out, which goes between the two paragraphs shown in your post:

quote:

Socialist Review 1995
The history of the policing of blacks in Britain has never had anything to do with 'good race relations'. The motives behind Condon's claims were starkly shown by his announcement a couple of days later that the Metropolitan Police intended to launch Operation Eagle Eye, an anti-mugging initiative specifically aimed at pinning muggings on black youths. This effectively gives the go ahead to Condon's officers to further harass black people on the streets of London.

Scotland Yard has refused to release the full details of the survey Condon based his claim on. The survey, in which the majority of victims described their attacker as black, only covered 20 out of a total of London's 62 police divisions. These 20 divisions are mainly in inner city areas but were used to generalise about London as a whole. Furthermore criminologists estimate that between 40 and 50 percent of street crime goes unreported.


(My emphasis)

You might have earned a modicum of respect if you were at least honest and upfront about your fears and prejudices. It seems with some, the only thing smaller than their dicks are their brains. You have a lot to learn and apparently very little facility for doing so. I'm too embarassed for you to forgive you, you're beneath pity.



(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 1:46:58 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I was just thinking, how many people will suffer if stop and search came back. I mean now police have 'weapons', tazers and such like.

If you were a cuntstable and you felt the need to search someone who was a bit mean looking, would that tazer trigger finger be twitching. Maybe even searches will be conducted at tazer point or post tazer.

At one time cops were of the more well built and of lower intelligence, but now there exists wimpy cops with university degrees, beats me how they are going to handle searching a hard nut.


A further thought;

If stop and search came back without the need to fill in forms on who has been searched and why, this could be an opportunity for police to abuse their position.

Say for example, a known criminal, a person who has of yet avoided feeling his collar felt by the plod, this person could be provoked into doing something that would make him arrestable by being constantly stopped and searched. This might just be foul language, which is I believe arrestable if directed at a police orifficer.

No, I think stop and search without documentation is a very bad way to go. Remember we do have some civil liberties and police shaking someone down perhaps even for the fun of humiliating or degrading a citizen is I feel a breach of civil liberties.

And we all know, the police though being upholders of the law are not always lawful themselves.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 1:56:51 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Luckily for some, the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,



Englishness is not a question of blood, colour or religion: it is a matter of choice.





_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 2:41:04 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Seeks i was raised in and around South London, including Brixton. RL is right, there is no way that 90% of street incidents involving violence took place in Brixton alone.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 2:56:30 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Stella it isnt all doom and gloom. Lambeth police, in conjuction with the local youth council have done a scheme which won an award. This included highlighting how stop and search should be carried out. What peoles rights were, and making the police aware of how youngsters felt. I cant see there being problems such as the 81 riots again. Crime in Lambeth is also falling, the figures have shown a large drop since 2001.

My local town council have started enquiries into why so many properties are empty. Ones that have not had a tenant for more than six months may be compulsory purchased.

As for migrants sleeping rough with no jobs.... its the fault of the system, letting too many people in, no proper checks ( Which is how the children in Slough were smuggled in ) no jobs to go to, and no skills. Add to that a severe lack of housing and all its doing is making an already bad situation worse.

Rather than see out tax money going to help migrants, i would prefer something to be done to the 25% of youngsters leaving school unable to do basic maths and English. Once thats done, and we start to put things right at home, then we can start helping others. Sorry if this sounds harsh but we dont have unlimited resources.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 2:58:00 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2055148,00.html
quote:


Tony Blair yesterday claimed the spate of knife and gun murders in London was not being caused by poverty, but a distinctive black culture. His remarks angered community leaders, who accused him of ignorance and failing to provide support for black-led efforts to tackle the problem.


I quote a plus and minus extract from the Guardian article.

Reality if you spent less time insulting me and more time perusing the web you would realise that it is very easy to find web sites describing the massive increase in street mugging in the UK over the last 20 odd years.
Why do you think the police setup Operation Trident. ?

Regarding poverty as a root cause of the problem people were undoubtedly poorer in the 30's than they are today and the rate of steet crime was miniscule by comparison.
Why is that in your opinion.?

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 3:08:56 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Seeks Trident had nothing to do with street mugging and everything to do with violence between criminal drug dealing gangs shooting each other, and not just in Brixton either. I think Blair had it partly correct though. Drug dealing is more about easy money than actually being poor.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 3:22:11 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		And if you spent less time insulting black people, took your blinkers off and tried to actually learn about the world around you, you might garner more respect than toleration.

If you read your own quote, you'll learn that it was Operation Eagle Eye, not Trident. Next, I never said that poverty was a root cause of the problem. I said we are lumbered with dead weight - mention no names - and that that diverted resources. You are every bit as dispensible as those you decry. Get it?

If you're stupid enough to believe street crime was invented by black kids, go out and read something other than the BNP website. Talk about limiting your horizons. Get a decent social history of this country; crime wasn't invented in the 60s by the Krays; thieves looted and raped during the Blitz, Charles Dickens was plagued by footpads and Dick Turpin never came from Trinidad. Try to come up with an original argument, this is boring. There's a library somewhere near you, although you've clearly already decided its full of nonsense and you know better.

Finally, yet again, your own quoted piece argues against you. Just what do you think Tony Blair means to me, or anyone else? I don't care what he thinks and in this - as in many other things - he's wrong.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 1/31/2008 3:49:28 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I got censored for calling PC liberals dimwits, you want me killed and nobody says a word. lol
I dont want anything done  either because every time you post you reveal that you cant face facts and resort to personal attacks.
Telling others what your tiny mind tells you  they believe is just plain dumb.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/03/nmug103.xml
quote:


Race is an added layer of complexity for the police. It has been recognised for some time - including in such quarters as The Voice, the leading black newspaper - that the majority of suspects in muggings in inner London boroughs are young black youths and men. A hard core, left to drift by years of family breakdown and school exclusions, is particularly prolific.
It is undoubtedly the case that stop and searches fell dramatically in the Met after Sir William Macpherson published his report, in early 1999, and have never recovered. At the same time, street crime rose.
I cant go on its too embarrasing and it hurts me when I larf.


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/31/2008 4:25:34 PM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 2:30:49 AM   
xAdamx


Posts: 92
Joined: 4/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

If you guys have such a severe shortage of housing in England has it occured to the Ministry of Silly Walks to maybe stop letting people into the country?


Popeye, we don't have a severe shortage of housing, but a severe shortage of 'affordable' housing. There is a difference.


and the reason we have a lack of affordable housing is because the minute a person is given one or purchases one, they prostitute their socialist background to make a quick or long term financial profit on it....when will people learn....houses are for living in, not to make money on....buy a house...live in it, pass it on to the next generation..

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 2:40:04 AM   
xAdamx


Posts: 92
Joined: 4/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Seeks Trident had nothing to do with street mugging and everything to do with violence between criminal drug dealing gangs shooting each other, and not just in Brixton either. I think Blair had it partly correct though. Drug dealing is more about easy money than actually being poor.


speaking of Brixton and Labour....it's always a source of laughter to me when l remember Blunket our previous visually impaired Home Sec being led around on his arm by a WPC, pointing out all the graffitti and Blunket saying l see.....there is absolutely no reason why a disable person cannot hold office in any job......but somehow it just somes up Labours 30 year social experiement and that saying...the blind led by the blind

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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 3:34:15 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Back to the OP:

Regardless of colour, religion, length of time in the country etc; the authorities should not have the power to penalise the 99% on the basis of the actions of the 1%.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 3:34:22 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Adam..... As well as showing everyone the absurdity of the photo shoot, that would be low down on the list of peoples fears in South London.

Nice idea on housing and talking of socialist roots, very few in new Labour remember why they were voted in. As i mentioned before the hypocrisy of Meacher saying people shouldnt have a second home, while owning close to a dozen himself was staggering.

(in reply to xAdamx)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 4:39:47 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Seeks Trident had nothing to do with street mugging and everything to do with violence between criminal drug dealing gangs shooting each other, and not just in Brixton either. I think Blair had it partly correct though. Drug dealing is more about easy money than actually being poor.

You say potayto I say potahto.
If suspects were stopped and searched and found to be carrying a weapon of some sorts would that help or be an infringement of civil liberties ?

I wrote the following, Stella can use it in one of her plays if she wishes....
Copper: hey son are you carrying a weapon
Suspect: What me  Nah not me
Copper Are you sure, not hinding anything are you ?
Suspect: wossup are you a racist or summthink
Copper: On you way sonny boy , dont report me to the Commission for Racial Equality, only doing my job.
Suspect: laughing up his sleeve...dont worry me no grass
Suspect thinks....what a plonker.
The End

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 5:40:02 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I do wonder about those comments from Blair that violent crime/ drug crime in the AC communities isnt a problem of poverty but of a specific form of AC culture.

Because the way I see it, taking ethnicity out of it, if you reject any group of people from participation in the wider society and economy, they will likely fall into poverty and adopt a subculture which rejects the wider society and economy. The expression of that subcultural rejection of society and economy may vary between groups, but it is found nonetheless. In the AC subculture we may find the gang expression, whilst in the Islamic subculture we may find the radical Islamic expression. And we find similar expressions in the indigenous population too, where there isnt so much of a defined subculture perhaps, but nevertheless an attitude towards society and the economy which tells the same story.

It then becomes easy for those whose duty and responsibility it is to promote a society and economy which is inclusive and offers real opportunity to all, but who seem to spend their time promoting the interests of anyone and anything but the people and the nation they constitute, to look to the symptoms generated by their neglect as the problem; ie those for whom the society and economy has been rendered off limits by the policies they have pursued for less relevant interests, and who thus reject the society and economy and become "problems".

This is not to downplay or excuse the crime which the rejected cause of course; it has to be tackled. But there is little point in tackling symptoms which will recur and grow endlessly in the absence of real cure. But for us to engineer a cure is difficult, painful and expensive in terms of money and in terms of acknowledging personal responsibility for the whole. Awkward too for a population which deceives itself so efficiently into believing the propaganda of those for whom the status quo is convenient - both the global capitalists and the socialist multi-culturalists; for both of whom it is profitable to divide us and make us believe this is the only way for our happiness and success.

E

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(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 5:48:23 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

LadyE The expression of that subcultural rejection of society and economy may vary between groups, but it is found nonetheless In the AC subculture we may (ooh err says seeks) find the gang expression, ..... 


Isn't this basically what Blair said ?

By the way in German what does Es sind mean.....thread hi jack.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:06:15 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Seeks - Blair said (as I read it) what amounts to "black people are a bad lot" whilst specifically excluding any explanation as to the origin of why they may be acting like a bad lot. Because for him to acknowledge the origin would be for him to acknowledge the dismal lie which is the theory of wealth trickling down through society when the interests of the already wealthy are pursued in our free market economy model through the Tory policies which he continued. It would be the undoing of the so called Third Way - which amounts to the pursuit of both global capitalism and socialist policies designed at preserving a class of "victims", part of which is done by way of the multi-cultural model.

Blair specifically rejected any cause to the anti-social cultural expression in the AC communities - just as he specifically rejected any cause to the growth of radical Islamic extremism in his war on terror; to admit which in the latter case would also establish the failure of his policies.

E

PS - es sind is sort of the same as "there are"

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:20:45 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lady E you seem unwilling to admit any notion that youngsters get into drug dealing, and therefore gang culture that goes with it, because its easier than working 40 hours a week in a factory. Its no good blaming everything on the politicians and nothing on the individuals.

NG, while you have a valid point, you dont express any soloution to the problem of knife and gun crimes. Stop and search is draconian, but its better than letting the killings continue.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 80
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