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RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:30:19 AM   
stella41b


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Stella it isnt all doom and gloom. Lambeth police, in conjuction with the local youth council have done a scheme which won an award. This included highlighting how stop and search should be carried out. What peoles rights were, and making the police aware of how youngsters felt. I cant see there being problems such as the 81 riots again. Crime in Lambeth is also falling, the figures have shown a large drop since 2001.



Politesub53 I know it isn't doom and gloom. I live on the fringes of Stockwell, which like Brixton is in Lambeth but also which, unlike Brixton, doesn't have the nightlife. Here again we can see an example of the stigma which I seek to highlight which is going on in this country. Stockwell is just as safe as any other area in London, and being honest I would even suggest that it is safer than many other areas. Brixton is similar. Just because an area of London is poorer than others or contains more ethnic minorities doesn't make it more dangerous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

My local town council have started enquiries into why so many properties are empty. Ones that have not had a tenant for more than six months may be compulsory purchased.



Politesub53 times are changing, and they're getting better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
As for migrants sleeping rough with no jobs.... its the fault of the system, letting too many people in, no proper checks ( Which is how the children in Slough were smuggled in ) no jobs to go to, and no skills. Add to that a severe lack of housing and all its doing is making an already bad situation worse.


Politesub53 we're talking about Poles and other Eastern Europeans such as Lithuanians.. people from the accession countries who joined the European Union in 2004 and 2006. These people have the same right to enter live and work in this country as we have. This wasn't my point. Agreed it is the fault of the system. My point is people changing their whole perception about Eastern Europe. The end of communism didn't come with the trade union victory of Lech Walesa or the fall of the Berlin Wall. The end of communism came about in the late 1970's through corruption and organized criminals. These organized criminals have come in on the backs of Eastern European migrant workers. This is what the authorities should be concentrating on and working against.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Rather than see out tax money going to help migrants, i would prefer something to be done to the 25% of youngsters leaving school unable to do basic maths and English. Once thats done, and we start to put things right at home, then we can start helping others. Sorry if this sounds harsh but we dont have unlimited resources.


Point taken Politesub53 but how much tax money is needed to take 1,000 or so migrants off the streets and into temporary accommodation? Probably a lot less than the amount of tax money spent in dealing with the after effects of having them on the street and refusing to deal with the problem. I thought the Labour slogan was "tough on the causes of crime" not "tough on the victims of crime".

I don't see why migrant workers shouldn't be required to register for residency permits upon entering the country requiring the following: an address, a NI number, a CRB check, and passport number for say £50 and a requirement to have such a card to take up employment. No address? No card, simple. If other European Union member states can do it, why can't we? But oh no, this is Britain, we let these people in gratis but the government expects everyone British to stump up £85 for an ID Card. This would require policing and employment legislation. Oh I forgot, silly me. Having employment legislation and checks for such cards is going to piss off the building contractors because they're going to have to employ these workers legally for higher rates, and this will push property prices up.

This isn't about unlimited public funds Politesub53, but more about getting the priorities right and making public spending more efficient.


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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:36:12 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

from Blair's speech.
Giving the Callaghan lecture in Cardiff, the prime minister admitted he had been "lurching into total frankness" in the final weeks of his premiership. He called on black people to lead the fight against knife crime. He said that "the black community - the vast majority of whom in these communities are decent, law abiding people horrified at what is happening - need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids".

quote:

LadyE
Seeks - Blair said (as I read it) what amounts to "black people are a bad lot" whilst specifically excluding any explanation as to the origin of why they may be acting like a bad lot.



Es sind = There are ?
I thought  that was Es geben....multi tasking now.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:39:09 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		So given all this, the ills are identified, who, (of you?), is going to sort it out?




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Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:44:15 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady E you seem unwilling to admit any notion that youngsters get into drug dealing, and therefore gang culture that goes with it, because its easier than working 40 hours a week in a factory. Its no good blaming everything on the politicians and nothing on the individuals.



Yes, there will be and always has been a hardcore of criminality - but we are into different territory here because working 40 hours a week in a factory, where such employment is even available, is no longer able to provide a viable shot at life as it did in former times. The hardcore is therefore added to substantially by a much larger periphery of those who choose a better option in this circumstance.

Our problems are man made, and therefore can be solved by man.

E

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:45:17 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Seeks

es gibt is also there is/are, yes.

E

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 6:57:36 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

I don't see why migrant workers shouldn't be required to register for residency permits upon entering the country requiring the following: an address, a NI number, a CRB check, and passport number for say £50 and a requirement to have such a card to take up employment. No address? No card, simple. If other European Union member states can do it, why can't we? But oh no, this is Britain, we let these people in gratis but the government expects everyone British to stump up £85 for an ID Card. This would require policing and employment legislation. Oh I forgot, silly me. Having employment legislation and checks for such cards is going to piss off the building contractors because they're going to have to employ these workers legally for higher rates, and this will push property prices up.

This isn't about unlimited public funds Politesub53, but more about getting the priorities right and making public spending more efficient.



Stella, i agree, the priorities should indeed be to making the system more efficient. There is a whole world of difference between migrants comming here to work, as against those who come here because they can get benefits they cant get at home.

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 7:00:00 AM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady E you seem unwilling to admit any notion that youngsters get into drug dealing, and therefore gang culture that goes with it, because its easier than working 40 hours a week in a factory. Its no good blaming everything on the politicians and nothing on the individuals.


I'm surprised at this. You may be from the area but you seriously misunderstand what goes on there.

There is no money to be made from selling small quantities of drugs. You would earn more stacking shelves at Sainsbury's. Take a look around the next time you're in Sainsbury's. Those who can't even land a job there - admittedly in some cases because of some minor childhood misdemeanour - often have no choice but to run around with that crap in their socks.

Think it through: If everyone is a dealer, who the hell do you sell your drugs to?

There seems to be a tendency at the moment of calling any random group of teenagers stood chatting in the street a "gang". They're not.

There are relatively few "big" dealers and they don't last long. Unless they're paying a copper.

The "gang" thing is a media fantasy. Some foolish kids play up to it  - the same way football hooliganism or gay-bashing grew through copycat violence of news reports when you were a kid.

This constant suspicion and therefore rejection of these kids does not go unnoticed by them.

There you go. Doubt you'll listen.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 7:04:55 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Well I've offered my solutions...
First and absolutely vital stop denying that a problem exists
.It should then follow that PC thinking will be kicked into touch.
Hard line policing and more important, since the police dont catch that many criminals, a very hard line sentencing policy including as a back up last resort corporal punishment.
Close our borders to the farce of the EU immigration policies.
Stop any asylum seeker who travels further than say central Europe from entering.
Reorganise the social side of the Welfare state so that it becomes a support during hard times. Longer for those who are mentally ill. So a balance is needed here.. It should not be  a lifestyle choice for many who are wastrels.

Take a serious look at the charitable status allowed public schools.
Raise education standards in general so that say an A level is hard to get and only the brightest will even try.
Attempt to raise the standards/status of the jobs that are important to an economy
ie Engineering up, shifting money around or general "do goodery" down.
Throw money at anyone who can come up with viable technical suggestions that could be expected to create jobs

Thats a start.
We are too far down the road to complete failure to make solving the problem painless or even possible. Carrying on as we are is a disaster in the making.
To paraphrase FargleBargles signature
Its not often that the opportunity arises to watch a society destroy itself.

One last point: Immigrants from anywhere of any race should be welcome if they can demonstrate that they have something to offer. That does not include making multi culturalists feel good about themselves.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 7:05:50 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady E you seem unwilling to admit any notion that youngsters get into drug dealing, and therefore gang culture that goes with it, because its easier than working 40 hours a week in a factory. Its no good blaming everything on the politicians and nothing on the individuals.



Yes, there will be and always has been a hardcore of criminality - but we are into different territory here because working 40 hours a week in a factory, where such employment is even available, is no longer able to provide a viable shot at life as it did in former times. The hardcore is therefore added to substantially by a much larger periphery of those who choose a better option in this circumstance.

Our problems are man made, and therefore can be solved by man.

E


Working 40 hours a week has never ever made it viable for the working class to succede. The first chance many of these came close to home ownership was during Thatchers right to buy, which you decry. My parents both worked to afford the home they were living in, even with discount.

Your stance would make more sense if everyone on low income turned to crime, but they dont. There are millions of black and white and asian people doing everyday jobs of everyday wages, many of these the victims of crime. To allow the criminals to blame poor opportunity as an excuse to injure and kill is an insult to everyone.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 7:12:25 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

UnRealityLicks
The "gang" thing is a media fantasy.


The Johnson Crew
The "somethingother" Boys 
Gang War
Result
Two young women shot dead in the vicinity of Perry Bar. B'ham 
Corollary: brother of one of the women made himself scarce...pronto. I wonder why?

I think we should deport you to live in South Central LA, No gangs there either. he he he he he he he

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 7:32:22 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady E you seem unwilling to admit any notion that youngsters get into drug dealing, and therefore gang culture that goes with it, because its easier than working 40 hours a week in a factory. Its no good blaming everything on the politicians and nothing on the individuals.


I'm surprised at this. You may be from the area but you seriously misunderstand what goes on there.

There is no money to be made from selling small quantities of drugs. You would earn more stacking shelves at Sainsbury's. Take a look around the next time you're in Sainsbury's. Those who can't even land a job there - admittedly in some cases because of some minor childhood misdemeanour - often have no choice but to run around with that crap in their socks.

Think it through: If everyone is a dealer, who the hell do you sell your drugs to?

There seems to be a tendency at the moment of calling any random group of teenagers stood chatting in the street a "gang". They're not.

There are relatively few "big" dealers and they don't last long. Unless they're paying a copper.

The "gang" thing is a media fantasy. Some foolish kids play up to it  - the same way football hooliganism or gay-bashing grew through copycat violence of news reports when you were a kid.

This constant suspicion and therefore rejection of these kids does not go unnoticed by them.

There you go. Doubt you'll listen.


Firstly i agree about the media blowing things out of proportion, but the truth is there are many youngsters being killed on our streets, which is unacceptable.

Okay, so if there is no many in drug dealing, how do they afford the guns, or flashy cars ect. Youre right in as much at a low level there is no money to be made. It isnt that simple though, most low level dealers sell drugs on behalf of people at the next level up, and are able to keep a small bit for their own use. Normally they sell it to friends and colleagues. However, once you go up a level, to those supplying street dealers, there is more money to be made each week than learning. The reason there doesnt seem to be a large number of big dealers is as follows, as soon as one is arrested, another usually from the same gang, takes over.

The youngsters see the dealers in flashy cars and designer clothes and aspire to follow.

There you go. Doubt You`ll listen

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 7:47:10 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Could it also be that yougsters who own flashy cars, designer clothes and bright gadgets are in the same mess as the rest of us, easy credit?

A few years back, I had to bail out a family member who managed to get a credit card whilst unemployed, with no credit history, and for the fun of it, got a card in the name of the family cat, and it did arrive, but was not used.How, simply he lied.

Now, if a family member was able to gain credit and rack up a debt by lying, then it strikes me any youngster can do it, in fact his friends told him how.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 8:02:24 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

PoliteSub
Working 40 hours a week has never ever made it viable for the working class to succeed.


I'm begininng to like you PS, lol, but the above statement is not quite true.
Where I live an unfashionable basically working class city, oh alright then Coventry, ordinary people lived very well from jobs in  the engineering industry. Very well indeed.
Clarify: I'm speaking of the 40s to the 80's
I did alright 'cos I worked for a lowish paying but stable telecomms firm.
Low relative to the car factories that is.

When I visited Marlowe Bucks, very fashionable I think, I noticed a  difference in average living standards. Slightly posher accents but much older cars for example.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/2/2008 8:07:29 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 8:11:11 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

PoliteSub
Working 40 hours a week has never ever made it viable for the working class to succeed.


I'm begininng to like you PS, lol, but the above statement is not quite true.
Where I live an unfashionable basically working class city, oh alright then Coventry, ordinary people lived very well from jobs in  the engineering industry. Very well indeed.
Clarify: I'm speaking of the 40s to the 80's
I did alright 'cos I worked for a lowish paying but stable telecomms firm.
Low relative to the car factories that is.

When I visited Marlowe Bucks, very fashionable I think, I noticed a  difference in average living standards. Slightly posher accents but much older cars for example.
  Aww Seeks..... ive always liked you since the day you burnt the bangers.

Yes i may have been remiss, i was thinking of house buying in inner London, which has never been cheap. I certainly dont recall a time when you could afford a house on just one 40 hr week income.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 8:14:14 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Aneirin yes credit has become an issue. I noticed earlier that " Egg" are stoping people in debt using their cards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7222336.stm

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 8:28:46 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Well I've just done something similar, forgot to put some chicken in the oven 'cos I'm reading CM.

The two B'ham gangs I mentioned in an above post, but which dont exist according to UnRealityLicks, were the Johnson Crew and The Burger Bar Boys who fought, possibly still do for all I know, over territory/status/ drug control  in the Perry Bar area of Brum.

UnReality says that the average drug dealer could make more working at Sainsburys.
If true he would also have to get out of bed in the morning or at the very least commit himself to a work ethic.
Easier to shoot somebody when required. and spend some good bed time with his HO. he he he he he

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 8:58:10 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Firstly i agree about the media blowing things out of proportion, but the truth is there are many youngsters being killed on our streets, which is unacceptable.


I agree. One dead kid is one too many. But it sells newspapers and that is the unvarnished and unpalatable truth. This is a violent society and newspapers have to present a stance which middle england can unite behind. If only they and the politicians were as concerned as they claim. Then they would acknowledge that there are many causes and much we can do, other than further criminalise innocent kids, daring them to live down to our expectations.

quote:


Okay, so if there is no many in drug dealing, how do they afford the guns, or flashy cars ect.


Why does a flash car mean you are selling drugs?

The unemployment rate is 5.5%. Lets assume its 15% for black kids in London. Are you telling me that of the remaining 85%, the only ones who can afford whatever car they want must be selling drugs?

Despite the hype and against the odds there is a large number of well-qualified and well-paid black people in this city. Many have also made plenty on their houses. It's good you're concerned about these crimes but it might be better to seek out some of the success stories for a little balance. It's no help to see people you don't even know as criminals, that'll just make your own life miserable. Don't just let the media interpret the world for you.


quote:


The youngsters see the dealers in flashy cars and designer clothes and aspire to follow.


This isn't an episode of The Bill! Talk to these kids and you'll see how many have got their heads screwed on a lot better than most on here.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 9:02:47 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
and spend some good bed time with his HO. he he he he he


This is why he's obsessed with black men. He wants to sleep with one.

It's okay, don't fight your urges; there's got to be someone out there for you.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 9:04:14 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Working 40 hours a week has never ever made it viable for the working class to succede. The first chance many of these came close to home ownership was during Thatchers right to buy, which you decry. My parents both worked to afford the home they were living in, even with discount.

Your stance would make more sense if everyone on low income turned to crime, but they dont. There are millions of black and white and asian people doing everyday jobs of everyday wages, many of these the victims of crime. To allow the criminals to blame poor opportunity as an excuse to injure and kill is an insult to everyone.


Yes I decry right to buy, because it was not accompanied by a policy to replace the social housing sold off. It was another example of the short termism with which we allow this country to be run.

The impression here seems to be that I'm some sort of toff? Sorry, no. My family is straight out of the back to backs of Birmingham and the unskilled labouring class of the Black Country. Somehow though, my dad managed to buy a three bedroomed house with large garden and garage, on one low skilled wage. Same with the neighbours.

What has changed is that the price of housing compared to income has altered dramatically; in fact there was a piece on the news recently which I heard comparing the 50s with today. In the 50s something like 10% of income went towards a roof over one's head, and now its something like 40%. Given we're all good little free market economists, the only explanation can be a housing shortage.

But your point actually is self contradictory.

If we are to hold that millions are working for a pittance - yet that has always made it impossible to flourish, then surely they must always have been making up that income through less than legal means? Which means that all lower socio-economic groups are criminals........ I dont think so.

And as I said, my comments are not to excuse the crimes.

What we have to deal with is that if this situation is not resolvable through changing the circumstances of the people concerned, then we must conclude that they are innately "a bad lot", irredeemable by any measure whatever. This is the path towards draconian solutions which may well have to final if we wish to produce a better society. I'm not quite yet prepared to throw in the towel on that one.

E

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Stop and Search (UK) - 2/2/2008 9:18:25 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lady E, as i said to Seeks, one 40 hour a week income, for unskilled and many semi skilled labour has never been enough to but a house. The article you mention about housing costs covers rent increases as well as property increases. This is due to the fact that today, more people want to buy and due to more credit, plus dual incomes, it has become a sellers market, forcing prices upwards.

quote:

  If we are to hold that millions are working for a pittance - yet that has always made it impossible to flourish, then surely they must always have been making up that income through less than legal means? Which means that all lower socio-economic groups are criminals........ I dont think so.


In answer to the above, people used to make do with what they had.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 100
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