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The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 4:46:16 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I will not be posting the link to the particular clip that has resulted in my following comments.

Every day I have a ritual of reading the news, I don't purchase newspapers, my sole source of information I gain online or via the radio. Today, while going through the various links, my partner clicks on a newslink (there was a warning stating it would be graphic) which shows a woman prone on the ground with her husband straddling her and stabbing her repeatedly in the chest/face/neck area. I viewed b/c I thought that people nearby, or, indeed, the person filming would have stepped in and taking this guy out. Wrong! Sure a couple of people aimed a few weak kicks at him, but these don't even stop the husband's stabbing momentum and when they see this they just move along, leaving him to his frenzied attack on his wife.

I'm sickened for several reasons. When did we stop caring about others to the point we will walk past such horror without making any attempt at stopping it?

Being the victim of a vicious attack - that occurred during the course of a previous job and which resulted in resigning from that position b/c I knew that I had had a lucky escape. What stunned me then, as it has now, is that my attack occurred in full daylight and on a crowded bus with people from all generations. The people that were witnesses to my assault stared out of the windows despite my screaming for help repeatedly, even the bus driver was inured and never made any attempt to call emergency services - 999. Had the two men achieved their objection (they made it clear that the broken whisky bottle they had was going to be inserted inside me for their amusement and b/c I worked for the people they despised most - Healthcare services) I would not be here now. Faced with dying a horrifyingly undignified death I went berserk, I'm not sure how I managed it but by all accounts I kicked the bottle from the hand of one of the attackers and while he was scrabbling for it I wiped the floor with the pair of them.

How can we sleep at night knowing we were witness to something so horrifying and yet make the choice to walk away, abandoning someone that desperately needs help?
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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:12:10 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline 		Ah yes you wittnessed Humans at their two best times. When they show what they truly are, visous crased animals or simpering frightened children.

Human nature is greed. A Human will to insure its our survival willingly allow another human being to come to harm. We rule this planet not because of our intallect, but because of our insanity. No other animal on earth is as cold blooded. No animal in all of the world kills another of its own kind for no reason. Yes ignoring someone being attacked and/or killed is just the same as attacking/killing them yourself.

Personally I don't care much what happens to othersc I just happen to be one of those "Look out for number one" Kinda guys. But if a woman is being attacked on a bus a few seats away from me, I would step in to make some sort of effort to quell the situation.

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:22:18 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		This is Darcy

The problem I think is that the law has become such an ass that if I were to come to your rescue and beat the guys into submission to keep them off you, then chances are I would be charge with Actual Bodily Harm and get a criminal record, and that the real bad guys would no doubt get a slap on the wrist and thrown back into society to do the whole thing again.

However, it would not stop me personally from stepping in. I would, of course, be mindful of my own safety as well, as I have people who depend on me, but I would do everything I could to intervene.

(Given my way, I'd then haul them off to a basement somewhere and torture them for a few months until they saw the error of their ways, but sadly we have this whole human rights thing that tends to frown on this kind of behaviour )

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:24:16 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		First I think it is wrong to generalise from invidual atrocities to say that humanity as a whole is horrific. Having said that humans both in groups and individually are capable of wicked behaviour.

Second I think it is understandable tho' regrettable that people do not intervene if someone is being stabbed. No doubt someone will say that this is a good argument for allowing people to be armed. ie Shoot the bastard.
Who is to say they are wrong ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/6/2008 5:45:08 AM >

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:28:28 AM   
Taintedblood


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Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline 		i think people are just too scared and do not know how to react in that form of situation.
 
i have often wondered if someone would help me or if i indeed would help someone else, i would like to think i would help someone else but wouldn't truely know till i was in that situation.


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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:35:14 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		If a man had a knife, I wouldn't step in. I wouldn't do it because I have no physical self defense training and I don't carry a weapon. Now I would call the police but no, I wouldn't put myself within stabbing distance.Without a weapon being involved I have stepped in and I will continue to do so if I feel that I will be safe. I thought about the filming for a few minutes, in one sense it is awful but in another it could also be helpful if/when it goes to trial. I would not film for the masses, I would hand it over to the police. So although it may me look terrible I wouldn't step into arms reach of a man with a knife who proves more than willing to use it, and I may film it in hopes that it would assist in putting that scumbag away for life.

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:35:41 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Seeks, you're right insofar as it is wrong to think of humanity as a whole as being an abomination. I gave but two examples, one personal, the other not. I can question and generalise the fundementals of humanity that allows people to turn their backs and make the conscious decision to not step in - I grew up in south east london, have lived in other areas of the country (wimbledon and east/west sussex) as well as abroad (Dallas/Austin), have worked for the majority of my adulthood in the care sector/child protective services - social services to us Brits, and think it a fair comment from me that human beings, generally speaking, are on the slippery slope. That doesn't meantosay I don't recognise all the good there is in humanity, of course I do, but being presented with such callous self-serving cowardice makes my blood run cold.

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:49:30 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Darcy, you're so right in what you say regarding the legal consequences for people that do 'have a go'. I can understand someone's terror at being faced with such a situation, their unease at stepping in, but when I was growing up, it wasn't a 'choice' for people, it was something instinctually done. I think a person should lose their 'human rights' the moment they deliberately engage in a behaviour that is designed to deprive someone else of their life.

Recently, there was a case of two 'special community police officers' who stood by and watched a child drown in a lake. They could swim, but opted not to even make an attempt at saving the boy b/c they had not received training in that specific area.

Ya, know, Darcy. We should become 'community officers', your dungeon or mine? lol

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:52:02 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		I don't know, I don't pretend to know, but I wonder if people have become desensitized to violence because of movies and video games and things. People are also less religious now, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I also wonder if it would matter if the people witnessing such an event were inner city or if they were more rural folk.

Personally, I know that I wouldn't just walk by. Depending on the circumstances I'd come up with a plan to do something, grab something and use it, but I'm a fairly fit man, too. Others may be infirm and just too scared to think, too unsure, too incompetent to act. Even using a phone under those circumstances might make you a target. Really, I don't understand how people can act that way, I'm only guessing because I don't understand it.

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:58:08 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

MissMorrigan
Recently, there was a case of two 'special community police officers' who stood by and watched a child drown in a lake. They could swim, but opted not to even make an attempt at saving the boy b/c they had not received training in that specific area.

Come in MsM, I like you I really do but this interpretation is incorrect. Other than being told someone was in the lake the PC's had no idea where. 

With regard to things being "better" in the past
(a) fewer people were armed especially with knives
(b) society has "improved" so much  that criminals are confident, law abiding citizens are not.

Who is to blame ? all together after me....the PC brigade lol

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 5:59:08 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Status: offline 		I don't understand it either, Sanity. I was just having a daily rant at the needless loss of life. Done venting! lol

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 6:10:18 AM   
LadyHathor


Posts: 775
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline 		I personally have been known to step in, in more than one occasion--My  Police Officer days still rest very close to the surface--however, I do step in safely and when its more than I can defend with, I use other means--that's just Me though--as far as humanity--it can seem that "we do suck" yet there are so many times when people do come to the rescue despite the outcome, that just never makes news.
 


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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 6:11:30 AM   
Padriag


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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

How can we sleep at night knowing we were witness to something so horrifying and yet make the choice to walk away, abandoning someone that desperately needs help?

I think the reason may be fairly simple... we live in a world no longer accustomed to dealing with violence.  We watch it on TV, but the majority of people simply have no idea how to react.  The result is that when something occurs, whether its a stabbing, a school shooting, a robbery, etc... people freeze, they don't know what to do.  That makes them uncomfortable (most of us don't like the feeling that we should do something, but not knowing what to do, its a natural feeling of discomfort), so after they get over the "freeze" they follow another fairly common reaction... avoidance.  They look the other way, they cross to the other side of the street, they hide in the corner... but they do not get involved.

It used to really upset me, but anymore I don't fault people for it that much.  I mark it off as being a product of the world we live in, the nature of our society.  As a society we're accustomed to having the police, the military, security guards, etc. to deal with these situations for us, and as a result most people don't know how to deal with it directly.  Of course the Achille's heel to that is, the police, military, etc. aren't always there.

Never claimed it was a perfect world.

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 6:16:57 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		The article I read, which I accept could have been misquoted or just plain inaccurate, did report that people (specifically one person) had pointed to the area in the lake where the boy went under. It's a lake, no undercurrent so the person would not have be swept along which often happens in the sea/estuaries, etc...

I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong, Seeks. I'm having a daily rant after watching something shocking to the point it upset me... So my rant is just symptomatic of my impotent frustration at seeing/reading something like that. I will have that cup of tea and put it all into perspective

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Come in MsM, I like you I really do but this interpretation is incorrect. Other than being told someone was in the lake the PC's had no idea where. 


I grew up in South East London (Peckham) until the age of 10/11, it was rare for me to encounter a person who didn't carry a knife... Even us kids carried knives and used to play that game where one of us would stand with our feet apart while another threw the knife to see how close we could get it to their foot. Such charming children's games, I know!  Despite carrying knives, and there were frequent altercations when we all argued/fell out as kids do, it was settled with a weak punch/kick, but the real propensity for violence wasn't there and I never encountered even one person who had actually been stabbed.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
With regard to things being "better" in the past
(a) fewer people were armed especially with knives


There's a lot of stock in those words. I'm sure it comes from a real lack of consequences - consequences being loss of liberty which, for a lot of people, seems a cosier alternative than their environment.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
(b) society has "improved" so much  that criminals are confident, law abiding citizens are not.


You make way too much sense, you pissed on my parade, Seeks lol
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Who is to blame ? all together after me....the PC brigade lol


< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 2/6/2008 6:19:17 AM >

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 6:52:46 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

MissMorrigan
I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong, Seeks. I'm having a daily rant after watching something shocking to the point it upset me... So my rant is just symptomatic of my impotent frustration at seeing/reading something like that. I will have that cup of tea and put it all into perspective


MsM I understand exactly and I agree with your underlying sentiments totally.

In fact the "lake" incident was first reported as you described and whats even worse the dreaded Health/Safety arguments were invoked.
It subsequently got corrected as I recall but I am speaking from memory so I might be wrong also.
I'll have a google lol


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/6/2008 6:53:45 AM >

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 6:57:06 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		You fornicator you! lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I'll have a google lol

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:11:28 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I think Padraig has it right when he says that we are no longer adept at how to deal with violence and people's uncertainty allows anecdotes like this to take shape. We live in a world where violence has been declining for centuries. Before all the reactionaries out there snap their blinkers into place (poor dears) you have to factor in that while over the course of say, a decade, violent incidents may rise or fall in frequency, the general trend is towards decline.

If you really believe the UK of today is more violent than that of 150 years ago, all joking aside, I'd urge you to visit a qualified medical practitioner and talk it through. Go back further, to Hobbes and the whole idea of surrendering our physical ability to be violent to each other and instead empowering the state to be violent on our behalf (which is where Padraig is perhaps coming from). We have increasingly insulated ourselves from the real violence - the breakdown in social order to where main strength is the only guarantor of survival. How many people reading this honestly doubt they'll make it to the High Street and back? You mightn't have said the same in 1858.

I can understand that with age comes insecurity - I'm not the baaad mofo I used to be either - but life's just too short to spend it being whipped up into various states of indignance. The horrifying attack you saw was once a commonplace. The reason we are shocked by it is because we don't have it on our doorsteps every single day and you know in your heart of hearts we're never likely to. 

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:21:11 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan
You fornicator you! lol
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I'll have a google lol

I am the thinking woman's fornicator lol
With regard to the" lake " incident most web sites I found support your position one or two dont.
What makes grim reading from my point of view is that the Chief Constable of Manchester said that the two officers were right not to enter the water (Health/Safety)
So...I withdraw my correction to your original point.
I was wrong.

I found a couple of other incidents where these "specials" were ineffective

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:22:01 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		People are not more violent now then before, we just have the ability to communicate the voilent acts to a larger audience.  People are also no less humanitarian then they've been in past generations, self preservation is the first human instinct, compassion falls behind that. 

The safety officers (without knowing more details) could have been instructed not to overstep their training-- in the states they could have been sued if they tried to save the boy and caused physical damage due to inaccurate measures taken.

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Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:24:02 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		RL, I never said society today was more violent, what I am suggesting is that we are perhaps more desensitised to it and as a result, less likely to intervene (for a number of other reasons too). I do have this into perspective, and of course it is also largely the reporting of such incidents that put it in our faces, so to speak, but there does seem to be a general malaise when it comes to violence. A classic example: Walking through Brighton Station where there is always a large group of people (approximately 70) milling around, a fight breaks out and one man is knocked down, the other kicking him repeatedly. People are clearly shocked, sickened at the assault, visibly uncomfortable and yet no one intervenes - why? It was stopped, by station staff that intervened and the man was duly arrested. 

I'm fully aware of the violent trends in previous eras throughout history. I can only speak of my experiences and observations in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties and now in 2008.

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