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RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:30:23 AM

kdsub

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MissMorrigan…I am so glad you came through it ok… you must be a …b… I mean good ass… well tough anyway.

You I believe were the victim of a group mentality. I’d bet if there were only on or two other people on the bus they would have helped you.

I’ve seen this behavior before… Each waits for the others to act… when there is hesitation then none act. Somehow the guilt of the lack of action is easier to justify when there is a group.

I was a supervisor on a construction crew and saw a group of my men surrounding two other men where one had a broken bottle and the other a knife. They were frozen and just watching. I grabbed a flat shovel and hit one on the knife hand and the other in the shoulder. That’s all it took to stop it. All the men had shovels the told me later they did not know why they didn't stop it.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/6/2008 7:32:57 AM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 21

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:35:13 AM

MissMorrigan

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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So, better to let someone die knowing that something could have been done to prevent the outcome than risk a reprimand/possible law suit?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaGThe safety officers (without knowing more details) could have been instructed not to overstep their training-- in the states they could have been sued if they tried to save the boy and caused physical damage due to inaccurate measures taken.

(in reply to OmegaG)

Post #: 22

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:38:09 AM

MissMorrigan

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I think you are what is termed, 'The thinking woman's crumpet'

Despite the sketchy reports on this incident, even though the Mancs CC said the two 'specials' were right not to enter the water and supported their decision, at what point do we stop thinking of ourselves as being a part of a community and adopt an 'every man for himself' attitude to the point we (I'm not suggesting all people) could watch someone being murdered or die via other means which could have been preventable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I am the thinking woman's fornicator lol
With regard to the" lake " incident most web sites I found support your position one or two dont.
What makes grim reading from my point of view is that the Chief Constable of Manchester said that the two officers were right not to enter the water (Health/Safety)
So...I withdraw my correction to your original point.
I was wrong.

I found a couple of other incidents where these "specials" were ineffective

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 23

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:38:13 AM

RealityLicks

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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OK, Miss M and I'm not trying to make light of that incident. I respect the horror you felt then and during your own experience. In fact, if I had been on that bus you wouldn't have stood alone. I've often jumped in on behalf of those who maybe didn't like the look of me! I've seen and experienced some sick things too... but you say yourself that you carried a knife (while too young to know better) and you obviously wouldn't use one, so maybe we as a country aren't so de-sensitised? It's tempting to draw precise patterns but over time I start to suspect life is a bit more "fractal".

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 24

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:40:02 AM

seeksfemslave

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RealityLicks once again presnts the orthodox Liberal response to the break down of Law and Order that has occured in the UK over the last 40 odd years.
Go back a 150 years and see that things were much worse then.This is known as comparing chalk with cheese.

Social conditions for the masses were quite different, lived in squalor and total poverty they did. A police force aimed at maintaining general Law and Order had only just been created , about 1830.
No welfare state at all.
We have gone from a relatively crime free society 1945 - 1959 to a violent crime ridden one. Late 60s to the present day.

I think Hollwood's glamourisation of violence doen't help and I would have no problems censoring such products.. In fact I would ban the whole film.
That foul so called entertainment that opens with I think Robert de Niro, the ponce, kicking somebody, to death?, is unacceptable disgusting and should have been kept within the confines of the US.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 25

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:51:21 AM

MissMorrigan

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Joined: 1/15/2005
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Hey, you understand the kind of situation/mentality to which I refer! You're so right about mob mentality, Butch and I have no doubt that had there been fewer people on the bus that someone would have stepped in and stopped my assault.

As for my own personal attack, initially I tried talking the men down, when that didn't work I focused on trying to extract myself but being sandwiched in at the back of the bus I was unable to do so. It was only when I reached the point I knew that if I didn't do something I would die that the real panic set in and instead of becoming paralysed through fear, which is what they expected, that I fought for my life, quite literally. I sure as hell wasn't going to put myself in the same situatiion which meant leaving that line of work/the area in which I supervised. What angers me more than anything is that those two KNEW that they could engage in such a vile assault and continue unchallenged despite it being a packed bus.

So what do you think the answer is to reversing that mob mentality, Butch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
MissMorrigan…I am so glad you came through it ok… you must be a …b… I mean good ass… well tough anyway.

You I believe were the victim of a group mentality. I’d bet if there were only on or two other people on the bus they would have helped you.

I’ve seen this behavior before… Each waits for the others to act… when there is hesitation then none act. Somehow the guilt of the lack of action is easier to justify when there is a group.

I was a supervisor on a construction crew and saw a group of my men surrounding two other men where one had a broken bottle and the other a knife. They were frozen and just watching. I grabbed a flat shovel and hit one on the knife hand and the other in the shoulder. That’s all it took to stop it. All the men had shovels the told me later they did not know why they didn't stop it.

Butch

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 26

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:58:10 AM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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That mentality doesn’t happen all the time and it doesn’t last long but I don't think there is any fixing it. It only takes one person to act… then the spell is broken and they will all join in.

We are herd animals at heart I’m afraid.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 27

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 7:58:50 AM

MissMorrigan

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RealityLicks, I know you aren't making light of it. I grew up in a society where it was common place for people to carry knives, the pocket variety... they were not carried for the intention to inflict violence, infact, it was unheard of, but given as a handy tool for cutting string/rope, even branches from trees - we amused ourselves building tree houses and a kid being given a pocket knife when they were eight was the day they became the envy of their peers. We had our gangs, the devision of war games and the interrogation of our 'enemy', which happened to be a member of an opposing gange (god the stories I could tell regarding those days! lol) but never any real violence occurred. It makes me sound bloody old!

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
OK, Miss M and I'm not trying to make light of that incident. I respect the horror you felt then and during your own experience. In fact, if I had been on that bus you wouldn't have stood alone. I've often jumped in on behalf of those who maybe didn't like the look of me! I've seen and experienced some sick things too... but you say yourself that you carried a knife (while too young to know better) and you obviously wouldn't use one, so maybe we as a country aren't so de-sensitised? It's tempting to draw precise patterns but over time I start to suspect life is a bit more "fractal".

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 28

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 8:05:24 AM

OmegaG

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

So, better to let someone die knowing that something could have been done to prevent the outcome than risk a reprimand/possible law suit?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaGThe safety officers (without knowing more details) could have been instructed not to overstep their training-- in the states they could have been sued if they tried to save the boy and caused physical damage due to inaccurate measures taken.

Sad to say but when a person is put in a decision making process where they could try to save someone against a directive and they have to think about the loss of job and income for their family, or complete destitution if a law suit is filed, they may just choose inaction for the survival of themselves and their family. (ETA-- criminal charges can also be filed in the states if the person, especially one that belongs to law enforsement of the medical profession, if the help they provided wasn't determined to be appropriate)

I have never been in a situation where I've watched a crime and had the ability to intervene, I don't know what my snap decision would be. I'd like to say that I'd heroicly sweep in and save the day, but I have two UMs with no one else to care for them but me, so I'd likely hesitate at best, but I'm realistic enough to think that I may choose only to call 911 and not get physically involved.

< Message edited by OmegaG -- 2/6/2008 8:09:14 AM >

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 29

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 10:36:41 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Morrigan, you guys in England have some FUCKED-UP "laws" if someone who's comming to your rescue could be charged with a crime for killing those two scumbags who attacked you!
Of course I'd intervene if I saw someone stabbing a woman or anyone else with a knife! I'd pull out my gun and tell them *ONE TIME* to stop (just to cover myself) and open fire on them anyway!
There's not a jury in the country that would convict me.
That is if I stuck around after dusting the guy. (lol)
I can't believe that a whole bus load of people wouldn't help you!
I'm 57 years old and I *still* like getting into fights!
Like I've said on here before, you guys in England need to take back *control* over your govt!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 30

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 10:47:17 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
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Popeye, this was the very first result in a search I just did.

http://www.il.gov/pressreleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?RecNum=4949&SubjectID=3 SPRINGFIELD – Governor Rod R. Blagojevich today signed two new laws that will protect people trained in first aid or medical response from being sued for trying to help injured people. The new laws aim to alleviate worries by “Good Samaritans” that they could be sued for helping someone who is seriously injured. “Good Samaritans should be thanked for helping people who are hurt – not worried about getting sued. Their quick thinking can help prevent an injury from becoming more serious and even save a life,” said Governor Blagojevich. Senate Bill 2303, sponsored by Sen. J. Bradley Burzynski (R-Sycamore) and Rep. Richard Myers (R-Macomb), protects any person who is currently certified in first aid by the American Red Cross or the American Heart Association and acts in good faith to administer free first aid from being sued by the people they are trying to help. The provisions are effective July 1, 2006. “Previously, someone may have taken a certified course in first aid, but they were not protected under the parameters of the Good Samaritan Act,” explained Burzynski. “While I don’t know of a specific situation where a lawsuit has been filed against a first-aid-certified Good Samaritan, unfortunately, in this day and age it is certainly possible that someone could attempt to help another person and unintentionally place themselves in the position of being susceptible to legal action. This new law will protect people in those circumstances.” ETA:
A California woman who pulled her friend out of her wrecked car "like a rag doll" is now being sued for rendering her a paraplegic.Sigh. It is messed up. But people are worried about possible ramifications.

< Message edited by camille65 -- 2/6/2008 10:50:39 AM >

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 31

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 10:48:03 AM

Lashra

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Joined: 2/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

This is Darcy

The problem I think is that the law has become such an ass that if I were to come to your rescue and beat the guys into submission to keep them off you, then chances are I would be charge with Actual Bodily Harm and get a criminal record, and that the real bad guys would no doubt get a slap on the wrist and thrown back into society to do the whole thing again.

However, it would not stop me personally from stepping in. I would, of course, be mindful of my own safety as well, as I have people who depend on me, but I would do everything I could to intervene.

(Given my way, I'd then haul them off to a basement somewhere and torture them for a few months until they saw the error of their ways, but sadly we have this whole human rights thing that tends to frown on this kind of behaviour )

Darcy has hit the nail square on the head. It used to be if you helped someone you were a hero, now you are just as gulity of a crime as the attacker as far as the law is concerned. Its ridiculous and one of the big reasons that people just walk away, others are afraid for their own safety. Personally I would have to do something, I couldnt stand there and watch something like that happen or walk away, the guilt would eat me alive.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 32

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 11:14:27 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Camille, they already have those good samaritan laws in most states regarding first aid.
Anyway, if I gave someone "three in the hat" there's no type of "first aid" that's going to help them.
I carry a .40 Cal Glock.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 33

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 11:16:01 AM

OmegaG

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Camille, they already have those good samaritan laws in most states regarding first aid.
Anyway, if I gave someone "three in the hat" there's no type of "first aid" that's going to help them.
I carry a .40 Cal Glock.

And then you find out that he was stabbing the woman because she'd just killed his wife.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 34

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 11:21:43 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Camille, they already have those good samaritan laws in most states regarding first aid.
Anyway, if I gave someone "three in the hat" there's no type of "first aid" that's going to help them.
I carry a .40 Cal Glock.

And then you find out that he was stabbing the woman because she'd just killed his wife.

Omega, what difference does that make to me?
Like I said, I don't hang around and make out police reports!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to OmegaG)

Post #: 35

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 11:29:53 AM

RealityLicks

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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Quick note to all:

Last July, two terrorists rammed the doors of Glasgow Airport, then set fire to themselves. Several onlookers jumped them and helped the police subdue them and were feted as national heroes.

Google "John Smeaton" or even "have a go hero"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2118762,00.html

Bravery awards are routinely handed out to people who help people in distress.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 36

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 11:35:20 AM

joanus

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Joined: 2/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Of course I'd intervene if I saw someone stabbing a woman or anyone else with a knife! I'd pull out my gun and tell them *ONE TIME* to stop (just to cover myself) and open fire on them anyway!
There's not a jury in the country that would convict me.

As long as he is a white guy probably not, but if he is black and they catch you running away, they'll give your ass the chair.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 37

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 12:07:07 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

How can we sleep at night knowing we were witness to something so horrifying and yet make the choice to walk away, abandoning someone that desperately needs help?

Because it is an isolated incident. We don't let our kids play outside because of all of the supposed pedophiles. We don't trust anyone.

I sleep like a baby because I know that things are not as bad as perceived and in many cases they are actually better then they were previously.

It is simply how do you view life? And do you allow yourself to be swept away and affected by all of the nonsense that comes your way?

_____________________________

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 38

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 12:33:03 PM

CuriousLord

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Joined: 4/3/2007
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WARNING: Disturbing image.

I still remember a video that sticks out clearly in my mind.

It was on MySpace, too, on a 12-year old girl's page. (No dirty looks- I was 13 and she was a school friend.) Well, she was a friend. After I saw the video, I chastised her pretty heavily and never really looked at her the same way again.

You see, there was this puppy whimpering noise when I loaded her page. Which I thought was weird. So I tried to find it, because, honestly, it creeped me out. When I found it.. it was sorta.. well, I didn't believe my eyes, so I reloaded the page and went right to it.

There was a lady in high heels (although you only saw her foot and heel) stepping on a little puppy. Her heel literally went through the puppy's left eye and out the right eye socket. Worst of all, the puppy was alive for a surprisngly long time as the woman simply griding her heel about its skull there. From the sounds of all the whimpering, it may've been correct to assume that other puppies were watching this, perhaps the bitch's next victims.

To this day, it stands as the sickest and most depraived thing I've ever seen. For the sake of attempting some semblence of decency, I'll spare the curses I'd have for the lady in the film.

And, for the record, no; no I do not know why she put that on her page. I asked her several times over the following months and she just shrugged. She also never told me where she got the video from. She did take it down right after I mentioned it to her, but.. I don't know. It made me sick to see her ever since.

(Also, as one might guess, I find heels to be revolting. Not because all women in heels are such monsters, but just because of that memory. So it's something of a personality quirk.)

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/6/2008 12:34:11 PM >

(in reply to MissMorrigan)

Post #: 39

RE: The Horror We Call Humanity - 2/6/2008 12:41:40 PM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

That's awful CL.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

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Post #: 40

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