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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 2:41:28 PM   
Termyn8or


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I was always fascinated with astronomy, which is of course related.

Astrology is the prediction of events based on astonomy. Now is that possible ? Ever since the star rising in the East story, some people believe it is Biblical. There is also indeed a reference to Palmistry in the Bible, that a Man's future is written in the palm of his hand.

Now let's get scientific about this. I was born a Leo, August eighteenth. I fit the stereotype in spades. In spades.

Now there is a scientific fact involved. When you are born of course there is that first year of life, and I consider the first five years of life very critical to a child's development. But on the day you were born was it cold outside ? What hapened next, were you all bundled up before being taken outside or was it nice out ? How were the attitudes of the most important people in your life ? Is your birthday in summer or winter ?

If other factors in those first few years have such an effect, I think it foolish to think that the climate would not have an effect.

But there is more. Since the actual year is not exactly the sidereal year, things need to be adjusted from time to time. If any of astrology's assumption remain true, there could be something to it. I do not believe in anything, I do not believe astrology, but I do not dismiss it.

Our position in the universe might actually have an effect. We are all aware of the tides in the ocean being caused by the gravitational pull of the moon. What if there are other forces which we have not yet discovered, that may even affect our development in the womb based on their alignment, vectors and strength or whatever.

When is it that we discovered nutrinos ? They were completely undiscovered thoughout the bulk of human history, and we still do not know what they do. We have no idea if they have an effect on the body or mind, and if they do is it different if they pass through your body in a different direction ? And they have been around forever even though we did not know they existed.

So just how many other rays or particles have been passing through our body since the dawn of humanity ? Things we have not yet discovered. And while they are making inroads into the subject, they are far away from understanding the human mind. How do we know what undiscovered forces exist that can affect the mind. What makes one person schitzophrenic and another depressed. Indeed what creates the dominant personality. ?

Could it be the fact that it got cold shortly after my birth actually affected my psychological development ? I can't say so, but I certainly can't say no.

Perhaps the notion that Leos are dominant ws gleaned from demographic information. Maybe a long time ago someone noticed that people born in August actually are, on average, more dominant than most. What other basis could they have ? And if it is indeed true, why is it true ?

I have my opinions (duh) and I did research these things for a time. Even magic. I am not saying I believe in anything, and from what I've read I have some assumptions. I read a very good book on it a long time ago.

True magic, you practice it on yourself. I've done it, some very rudimentary things. It all works in your own mind. I have never even thought of attempting to use it on anyone else.

If you give yourself the chance to be stupid you can believe almost anything. I'd like to see the demographic data before I place any faith in astrological assertions. But I do understand that there are things which we do not understand.

The book I read, which I doubt anyone will ever find (I have mentioned it before) was very comprehensive. The way it was presented is that they are just presenting the facts, that they did not say to believe in anything supernatural, in fact that there is nothing supernatural. Among the first words of the book were "The occult simply means that which is hidden, noithing more". It went on to say that knowledge is power and knowledge shared is power lost. That makes sense, and I guess I violate that every day. But then I am not after power. That may sound funny coming from a Leo, but with power comes responsibility, and right now I have enough responsibility.

I am a leader. My house is the nexus for my followers. They would be here now but I would rather they are not, so they are not. I have not been in a fight for a very long time, banishment is my most effective tool. I have said "Get the fuck out" many many times, but when I say "don't come back" that gets em good. When people want to be led, they want it pretty bad. Hmmm, now that I think of it I don't really know that many Leos. Maybe it is like an alpha male thing.

On another note, alot of the stereotypes of the past have been dismissed. Most for good reason, but they did exist. Where did they come from ?

I guess this is the same old story, too many questions and too few answers.

T

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 2:47:36 PM   
Zephalt


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I dont think any experienced astrologer seriously considers purely "Sun Sign" astrology - astrology only using the position of the Sun in the Suns appropriate Zodiac sign - as a significant basis. Whole chart analysis using "planets", nodes, the zodiac, sensitive points and the houses is the only real approach. Prior to the 1780's Astrology was a well integrated methodology and much of works like Shakespeare make reference to it. If one accepts archetypes then the organization that various astrological methods can provide a foundation for added understanding of the motives of the authors and people involved.

But as always - opinions differ. You are welcome to yours.


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 3:10:47 PM   
thornhappy


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(fast reply)

The basic fault with astrology has nothing to do with determinism, etc. - it's the fact that astrology's based on the sun & planets orbiting the earth, and we know the earth (and assorted planets) orbit the sun.

In addition, as more planets were discovered, all of a sudden people had new attributes (discoveries of neptune & pluto fer instance.)

thornhappy

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 3:29:16 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Andrew, many, If not all, Athiests believe in an absolute predetermination.  It logically follows that every event, down to the thoughts in our heads, are just physical reactions.  The universe is just a giant machine operating from its start point.  Scientists don't see messages in the stars about it, but generally are 100% deterministic.

Not that I am defending Astrology.  I suspect telling people since they are small children, "you are a scorpio and scorpios are...", has a degree of psychological impact.


Holding a mechanistic view of the universe does not equate to "absolute determinism". Our weather is a mechanism based on clear physical rules but is sufficiently chaotic that it becomes virtually unpredictable outside about a five day window, regardless of the quality of the data and it's interpretation.

The universe does not unfold according to some vast daytimer so it is a big stretch to say that scientists and atheists are determinists. That would require believing there is a "plan" and a planner... a distinctly un-atheistic prospect.


Z.


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 3:29:46 PM   
kittinSol


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I would nitpick at all these facts, but I don't want to show what a typical Virgo I am.

PS: one cannot 'believe' in astrology. Astrology isn't a 'belief' system: it isn't a religion, or a spiritual path. It is, simply, a tool (used by many, including those that 'govern' us).

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/12/2008 3:46:02 PM >


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 3:44:45 PM   
Zephalt


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There are many forms of astrology - Geocentric is very popular (Earth centered ) but for example there is Heliocentric where the Sun is assumed stationary and the Earth moves around the Sun. It is a mathematical technique to assume that certain objects are still and others are not in order to discover the relative motion and rythms. The assumption is that rythyms are everywhere and if you accept astrology then one particular individual, event or whatever may respond to to this or that body or combination of bodies or imaginary points.

Magi Astrology as just one example makes extensive use of both Geocentric and the Heliocentric Systems - but there are many different forms like Sidereal astrology. Individual astrologers for specialized purposes may find other systems of use for specific and limited application. Nearly every major software commercially available and most of the free products have as a selection whether to use Geocentric or Heliocentric systems as preferred.

The massive advantage in using geocentric based astrology is the vast body of texts available. Most committed astrology students master these Geocentric based texts, then go into the extentions like Heliocentric and other forms. It depends on ones purpose and application.

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 3:45:17 PM   
Nineveh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I would nitpick at all these facts, but I don't want to show what a typical Virgo I am.

PS: one cannot 'believe' in astrology. Astrology isn't a 'belief' system: it isn't a religion, or a spiritual path. It, simply, a tool (used by many, including those that 'govern' us).


I disagree. Certainly one cannot believe in Astrology the way they believe in, say, Catholicism, but they can believe in it the way that they might believe in the Atkins diet, Or yoga or any other methodology. 

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 3:47:45 PM   
Nineveh


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Assuming any point in a universe that is constantly in motion as stationary is simply a convenience.  I don't see how assuming a stationary earth is any less valid than assuming a stationary Sun, as neither of these is actually the absolute truth, but merely convenient ways to approach it.

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 3:49:52 PM   
kittinSol


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You and I differ on the meaning of the verb - fancy a debate on epistemology?

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 4:09:20 PM   
Nineveh


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Well, the way I see belief being applied to Astrology is, essentially, belief that the underlying theories are accurate.

Personally I do not believe in the underlying theory but still consider it an extremely useful tool.

I can see the other sort of belief that you mentioned, and how that is not a useful verb to apply to Astrology.

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 4:18:26 PM   
kittinSol


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People think astrology is all about silly one offs in women's magazines; they don't know how a chart is constructed. And they think astrology is about predeterminism when in fact, one of its fundamentals is that individuals have the cards in their hands and are in charge of their own destiny.

There is much prejudice against astrology: but I'm not going to fight it out. Looks as though you are really knowledgeable on the subject though, which is fascinating (few have a in-depth knowledge, it's a dying art).

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 4:24:38 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You and I differ on the meaning of the verb - fancy a debate on epistemology?


omg I had one of those with my second UM. My stars that hurt like a mf! It's a good thing I'm a stalwart Taurus...

tee the Bull


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 4:33:40 PM   
Nineveh


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I am far more knowedgable about Tarot than Astrology.  i know enough Astrology to have a conversation with an astrologer and understand what they are saying, but that is about it.  I am glad to see someone else on here who understands it as more than the blurbs in newspapers though.

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 4:36:31 PM   
bipolarber


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If I came down on every person who held some nutcase belief, I'd end up a very lonely person. If astrology gives them some pleasure or comfort in their lives, then fine. Same with a religion. I won't be engaging in the same activities however. I just can't bring myself to believe in something that has no evidence, nor observable phenomena that can be tested. (or in the case of astrology, lots of exidence that it's bunk)

Still, asking "what's your sign?" is a great ice breaker with chicks.

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 4:52:02 PM   
subtee


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FR~~

smack*smack*smack

Is this thing on??!!


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 5:07:12 PM   
GreedyTop


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FR~ to nobody in particular

I was born in Dec., 1962.  According to astrology, I'm a Capricorn.  However, I was a preemie (almost 2 months).  If you look at the traits generally associated with Capricorns...well, let's just say they don't fit me at all.  Look at the traits for Aquarius, though, and bingo! There I am. 

Just kinda found that interesting,

(hi, subtee! yeah, it's working! *grin*)


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 5:17:54 PM   
ThinkingKitten


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FR:
When the emerging field of epigenomics can prove with a statistically significant outcome, that weather patterns experienced by grandparents can affect the health of their grandchildren in a predictable manner, who's really to say that the gravitational pull on the earth at different times from the solar system around us at the time of our birth doesn't have any effect on the methylation of genes?


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 5:23:25 PM   
luckydog1


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Zen, I have heard many scientists say that If we could know the exact location and vector of every particle in the Universe, we could play the universe back and forth like a video tape.  IF it is purley mechanical, there really is no other option.  I have never heard anyone say we actualy could know, for a couple of reasons.  But that doesn't change anything. 

I made no claim that that scientists think they can predict events (on the Macro scale).  But any scientist will say that the weather came about for very concrete reasons.  Just that there is a mechanistic cause to them, which has been determined by the interaction of particles going back to the instant of creation.  The thoughts in your head are just byproducts of the chemicals you have ingested and experience input.  It is only within the context of Religion that you can have anything approaching free will, or anything beyond a purley deterministic universe.  Otherwise the Universe (and every aspect of it)  is just a machine opperating according to predetermined rules.  

It does NOT require a plan or a planner, unless you assume that the scientific rules and start had to have a creator/ planner.  The first protomatter got set in motion at the big bang and has reacted according to Scientific rules ever since, all of it, down to the thoughts in your head.  That is what Athiestic Science teaches.  Absolute Presdestination. 

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 2/12/2008 5:29:13 PM >

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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 5:27:45 PM   
GhoSSt


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I'll neither confirm nor deny my beliefs.

However, I will say this. We all know that phases of the moon and magnetic influence control mating, migration and other behaviors in wildlife. Is it too hard to believe that humans might be affected, even in some small way? Just my .02


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RE: Astrology - 2/12/2008 5:38:12 PM   
Zensee


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A device to track and record the position and status of every particle in the universe would have to be bigger than the universe (unless the Japanese made it, perhaps).

In any case, even if it is possible to rewind the universe you can't fast forward it because anti-entropic beings like ourselves break the rules and introduce unpredictable variables. The machine may operate on predetermined rules but what is does is unpredictable. Thus the universe cannot be predetermined. Even if it were, that would not make atheists or scientists necessarily determinists. In that case they'd be Denialists.

I think. Or was that already written?


Z.


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