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RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 11:18:25 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Nope, I am a Virgo.  Sept 12 1986 4:30ish am Central Time Zone US.  Might have a Tauran moon influence or something.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 1:59:11 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

I haven't confused anything with anything. I'm an atheist. Don't presume to tell me what I believe.


Don't be silly...everyone has to believe what Strawd...errr.. Luckydog says they believe, or else what would he have to argue about?

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:41:41 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		No - the universe is NOT an anti-entrpoic system. The biosphere of earth is the only one we are aware of at present.

You have still not defined what you mean by predetermination so until you declare what that means to you I have no point of reference - I don't know what I am arguing because you keep moving the goal posts.

HippieKinkster is not in contrdiction. He allowed for the possibility of beings outside our present experience or perception, whose natures or technologies might appear "magical" to us but who, like us, are the results of this universe, not the creators of it. Predetermination posits that the Jehova God made the universe and, at the very least, already has a list of the saved and the condemned, if not a script for the entire drama. You'll have a hard time selling me on the absurdity of the former while extolling the virtues of the latter.

This conversation was not written into the substructure of the universe at the moment of universal initiation (aka the big bang, as the present paradigm). The particular ball of mud upon which this conversation is being conducted was not even on the drawing board let alone the myriad of variants and accidents leading to this joyous moment. There is no principle in science (atheistic or otherwise) that allows for this let alone compels us to believe this. Scientific "laws" are not legislation, they are observations.

Just because the underlying mechanics the universe and of life are lawful it does not follow that the the actions of a given individual are predetermined. Nor does the presence of order in this universe require the influence of forces from outside it.

Your assertions about science are unfounded, often grossly mistaken and your arguments are still unsupported. I don't have to prove free will. You have to prove predetermination.



Z.

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(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:46:39 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Hey! I wasn't part of that convo, man. I was just trying to glean information about luckydog's astrological profile (VERY interested to find out he is a Virgo, like Mike Huckabee, John McCain, Mother Theresa... and me hahahaha). All that stuff about predetermination, atheism/agnoticism, predictions and what have you went TWEETY TWEETY far, far above my head.

After I've finished working on luckydog's chart, I promise I'll go back to the drawing bored... board, and I'll try to figure out what it is that you are all talking about.

Signed: sillylilsubbie.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:46:46 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Your assertions about science are unfounded, often grossly mistaken and your arguments are still unsupported. I don't have to prove free will. You have to prove predetermination.

Well, laughingly now folks, I can take him out and get him drunk and kick his ass in front of a speeding bus and ask if that would be predetermination on his part, or premeditation on mine, or if he thought the reverse true.

This of course would lead to a very short conversation.

Ron 

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:48:14 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

This of course would lead to a very short conversation.



Star sign please? I'm doing a survey...

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:49:13 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		herpes. cancer. 

take your pick.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:52:03 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		You can only do what it is written you shall do, Ron. I won't hold you responsible but I would have to reconsider my position on the whole matter.


Z.


_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:52:45 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Birth date, please?

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(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:53:41 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Moi?



_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:54:46 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Ben ouais. J'fais un sondage.

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(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 2:58:45 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Is that like, French or something?

I was not born but I was predetermined to arrive while the sun was in the constellation Libra and yes I do exhibit many Libran traits but I believe I was mostly influenced  in this by a very descriptive coffee mug I cherished as a child. And I liked the idea of having the only machine in the pantheon as a sun sign.

If you want more detail than that, it'll have to be on the other side.

Z.


_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 3:24:11 PM   
QuietlySeeking


Posts: 297
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: andrewmac

You cite scientists who have religious beliefs, but I don't know of many well-educated persons whose religion leads them to make assertions that their lives are predetermined in some fashion at birth.  I'll take your word for it that they do exist.


<snip />
As to 'fortune telling' via astrology, that I have little interest in as I prefer to take life's challenges as they arrive.Astrological pre determination, if it is accurate, may only be accurate for that given time and space. A fraction of time later, everything changes and with that the future.



So, let me see if I have this....
For this second and only this second, my "astrological pre-determination" is accurate or maybe inaccurate; when the next second comes, my "astrological pre-determination" could become inaccurate or accurate?!?

Given the above....
If I pick up my star chart from my astrologer two minutes later than I should have, the consequences of being late could completely invalidate (or completely validate) all of the findings contained therein?

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 4:10:43 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

I would be interested to see you cite some of these sources that disprove astrology as I suspect that you may simply be carrying the prejudices that you hgave developed over without actually having read studies that disprove astrological theory.



It is not up to the questioner to prove or disprove. It is always up to the claimant to prove. The supernatural can't be touched by science - it isn't falsifiable. All one has to do is say "Oh, this is the hand of god at work" (or whatever) and how can that be disproven?

If it is a truism, it should be generalizable for any given person. If studies can show that it is accurate and able to be replicated, I'm all for it. Otherwise, it's a fun novelty but I wouldn't stake my rent on it.

(in reply to Nineveh)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 5:05:02 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		James Randi has a million staked on it not being verifiable.

(in reply to batshalom)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 5:26:34 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Zensee, why not let hippie speak for himself.  "Not having a belief in a deity does not exclude believing in beings from other planes of existence which may influence events in this plane."

Will all the scientific athiests who believe in other planes of existance, with beings that intervene in ours please stand up.  That is religion.  Is there any evidence of Beings from alternate planes intervening in ours causing things like free will or indpendant thought?  Lets see, no there isn't except for Religious testimony/theological theory.

Zensee, what force other than the scientific laws afffects things?  Besides beings from the Astral Plane?  IF you answer that you have shown me wrong.

What are your thoughts other than a byproduct of chemical reactions (operating in a perfectly logical manner)?

If you can answer those you have shown me incorrect.  Yet I keep asking to no avail.

To an Athiest (one who is honest with them selves) the universe (and all its parts) is nothing but a machine operating according to basic laws, in the only way it can operate.

You can call me straw dog (or anything you choose) if you like Alumbrado, your petty insults amuse me.  And it shows you can't argue my point.

"Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Determinism may also be defined as the thesis that there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future.[1] With numerous historical debates, many varieties and philosophical positions on the subject of determinism exist from traditions throughout the world.  "

Nothing about Jehova, God or Judeo Christian beliefs are included in determinism at all, despite your assertions.  What I am proposing is a valid recognized school of thought.  I have asked several times for any Athiest to give anything that could contradict it, and so far the only one is beings from another plane

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 5:30:20 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Mnot, if you are a scientific athiest, what could your thoughts possibly be other than the byproduct of Chemical Reactions?

"Well, laughingly now folks, I can take him out and get him drunk and kick his ass in front of a speeding bus and ask if that would be predetermination on his part, or premeditation on mine, or if he thought the reverse true. "

Yah, the idea that you could kick my ass is pretty laughable, but you miss the whole point.  It would not be predetermined by either you or me, but by the operation of the Universe, going back in a chain of predictable events to the instant of creation. 

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 6:03:57 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Will all the scientific athiests who believe in other planes of existance, with beings that intervene in ours please stand up.  That is religion.  Is there any evidence of Beings from alternate planes intervening in ours causing things like free will or indpendant thought?  Lets see, no there isn't except for Religious testimony/theological theory.



I am really enjoying this thread. I know it's a hot topic, very emotional, but I think we could have a terrific discussion if we could keep our grand emotions (including name calling) to a minimum. ~ahem~

Anyway, the existence of other beings or gods or whatevers isn't scientifically provable either; however, the cool thing about faith is that it doesn't need science to prove it or disprove it.

There are geocentrists, flat earthers, young-earth creationists, old-earth creationists, gap creationists, day-age creationists, progressive creationists, intelligent-design creationists, theistic evolotionists, and materialist evolutionists (pure scientists who do not believe in the existence of any supernatural forces). I'm sure I left a great many beliefs out.

The Catholic church takes the intelligent-design creationist stance, saying that evolution is fact but that god created the human soul. That's progress. Eh? You see what I'm saying? A monotheistic religious order acknowledging the importance of evolution of the species, acknowledging the bible stories are stories and not the blueprint of creationism, but at the same time reserving the right to say that god created the human soul. That's cool. It's something I can live with.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 7:36:38 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

however, the cool thing about faith is that it doesn't need science to prove it or disprove it.


Is that why burning/drowning witches, was such a cool idea?
Because it was based on 'faith' that God wouldn't let anyone innocent perish?

Again people are pretending there is no difference between the ordinary faith that the sun will come up in the morning, or your car will start, and the blind faith that is required to ignore concrete and verifiable evidence to the contrary.

And again, what should have been learned in grade school (critical thinking and logic, such as not proving a negative) is conveniently ignored.

No wonder Randi's money is in no danger of being won, but we are in danger of putting another idiot into the White House.




(in reply to batshalom)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 9:19:19 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I was giving some thought to it, and have to say that the Universe is an Anti-Entropic event.  It started with simple forces and hydrogen, which has organised into more complex forms.  All matter that is not hydrogen was created by being cooked inside of stars which died expelling the stuff.  Dust clouds are still forming into Stars and Galaxies.  The Universe is increasing in complexity and size, right?  Eventually, scientists Predict, that the entropic forces will win out.  Same goes for every life form, it will die, right?

So it has to be Anti Entropic, right?

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 100
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