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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 2:21:41 PM   
Nineveh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

using FR..........

I just love love LOVE, when all the right brain thinkers collide with the left brain thinkers on threads like these!!



I tend to be very left brain oriented.  Very analytical, verbal, not very emotional.  On the other hand I am definitely going to give a fairly strong defense of Astrology.  I think it has a bit more do do with how one was raised.  The things that we assume as common sense are those that ere given to us by our parents.

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 2:56:32 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Seeks - I was referring to localised weather prediction, (ie. will it rain next Tuesday) not long term trends (the effect of jet stream and ocean currents on general patterns). It is actually easier to make long term predictions about the behaviour of large chaotic systems than short term predictions about small systems.

That said, lucky - Yes, they'd be denying determinism - IF determinism was a fact, which it isn't so they are off the hook until you make a better case for it.

All life is anti-entropic in that it reduces chaos and increases order in it's local system, mainly by organising carbon into filaments and membranes etc. and by sequestering energy. Life organises information in the form of genetic material and  sub cellular functions, and all beings gather, process, interpret and store information through their organs of perception. All anti-entropic activities.

I can't say to what degree the range of choices we have makes for free will (that's another matter). I am pretty certain that, given the complexity of the universe and the manner in which minuscule differences in initial conditions amplify over time, the universe cannot predetermined what choices organisms will make at any given moment or even if a given individual will be present to make those choices in the first place (or have them forced upon us). There are just too many subtle and changeable variants, with such profound and far reaching results, that prediction is impossible.


Z.


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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 3:07:13 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

Zensee
All life is anti-entropic in that it reduces chaos and increases order in it's local system, mainly by organising carbon into filaments and membranes etc. and by sequestering energy. Life organises information in the form of genetic material and  sub cellular functions, and all beings gather, process, interpret and store information through their organs of perception. All anti-entropic activities
I agree, therefore why does not Evolution violate a basic scientific  tenet or established scientific "belief system"
MrZ please correct my erroneous thinking lol.


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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 3:10:28 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I just love love LOVE, when all the right brain thinkers collide with the left brain thinkers on threads like these!!

And we all love you so we are all winners. lol

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 3:20:21 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Zensee
All life is anti-entropic in that it reduces chaos and increases order in it's local system, mainly by organising carbon into filaments and membranes etc. and by sequestering energy. Life organises information in the form of genetic material and  sub cellular functions, and all beings gather, process, interpret and store information through their organs of perception. All anti-entropic activities


I agree, therefore why does not Evolution violate a basic scientific  tenet or established scientific "belief system"
MrZ please correct my erroneous thinking lol.



Mr S. - I am always glad to enlighten and correct my fellow beings but am unaware of any scientific tenet, law, theory or observation which evolution violates.

There are interesting puzzles yet to be solved, delights to be discovered and details to be worked out. There is the matter of exactly when life began and how, but I have "faith" that science will eventually providing a satisfying answer. Personally, I don't need some "black box" explanation to tide me over in the mean time.

I hope this was helpful correcting your temporarily erroneous thinking. ;)

Z.


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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 4:49:47 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: andrewmac

Now...this is not some airhead kid. This is an adult woman, presumably with a life and a job. 

So, can anyone explain this to me?  How do you reconcile a belief in a pseudo-scientific determinist philosophy, then vociferously insist that you are completely SELF-determined?  How does someone proud of being educated completely reject the massive scientific evidence completely debunking astrology?


Just say "Now isn't that special" and smile sweetly.  You may want to throw in a "Bless your heart" too :)

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 5:00:49 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		It's crazy....I once met a witch off of CM. I had no interest in her other than the fact that I had never met a witch before.
Witches are a drag. I'm judging that if you've met one witch then you have pretty much met them all. So I think it is safe to say that witches suck ass.


I would rather spend time with a witch then someone who really placed faith in their horoscope. Either way you know you are dealing with someone that is off their rocker....There are zillions of people that are looking in all the wrong places to make sense of their world.


People who believe or have the need to believe strike me as no different the the young girl who has a kid because she needs to be loved. It's an illusion. Whatever happiness that is derived comes at a price...Too often that price is having to make a serious compromise....Whether it be your beliefs, your intelligence, or your integrity.

But then as lucky said this whole thing is predetermined...We are all riding on a ball of shit hurtling through space being propelled by dung beetles whom seem to be the only ones that know what their exact purpose consists of.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/13/2008 5:01:15 PM >

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 5:05:27 PM   
christine1


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Status: offline 		the stars tell me that i'm a cancer born in the year of the horse.  but what my stomach tells me is that i'm a carnivore.  yup, i'm definitely the sign of the carnivore and i completely believe that i am....you can't talk me out of it, no way.

< Message edited by christine1 -- 2/13/2008 5:33:40 PM >

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 8:30:28 PM   
Zephalt


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Status: offline 		I think prediction is the argument to some extent though for Astrology. There is an entire branch called Horary ( versus say Natal or Electional ) that is dedicated to answering questions where limits are set but are extremely difficult to evaluate. For example - "My husband got sick on vacation and the doctors say its up to me whether to take him home ( with travel risking his recovery - but home where care may possibly be better ) or should we let him recover in the vacation facilities where care is acceptable but expensive. What should be done ?" or "I have a court case coming up suing my partner. Will I win ?" Questions of this nature where very personal impact is seen are typical targets for Horary Astrologer.

These questions are nearly impossible to answer unless the events are extremely stylized and conform to previous judgements, but an experienced Horary Astrologer would have little difficulty in resolving.

Even electional astrology can be used to great advantage - such as Lilly's prediction with the Fire of London - so accurate that he was suspected of initiating the fire himself and had to explain to Parliament his methods.

The only real conditions here are that the Astrologer be experienced and knowledgeable - a non-trivial task at best. But there are Astrologers who have mastered this form of query with success.

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 8:56:55 PM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		There are also a profession of astrological psychologist. One who examines a person's natal chart to look for things which might be personality above any 'disorder' before diagnosi are made and people put on drugs which may cause a real disorder.

I had a chart done by an astrological psychologist, I was very surprised to say the least. I used this as a basis to work on some of my more negative traits.

This is the astrology that I have an interest in, as it's accuracy with no bias is astounding to me.

(But then psychologists were once reffered to as fringe pseudo science by psychiatrists at one time)


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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 9:32:06 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		zensee, that is twice you have missed what I was saying, and I know you are smarter than that.   The Ability to Accuratly Predict is not the determining factor in whether something is predetermined.  You know that.  I said in fact that Scientists could NOT predict and we disccussed the reasons.  However unless, you are asserting there is a force in the universe that causes things to happen other than the scientific laws, you are not an Athiest.  Every macro event is controlled by smaller events down to the sub atomic level (according to science/athiesm).   This goes for the thoughts in our heads, it is quite easy to show that if you change the chemical ballance in the brain, you get altered thinking patterns. 

Seriously,  what other force than the Laws of Reality (nature/Physics/science/whatever term you want to use) as discovered by Science (including those we haven't discovered yet) affects the reactions on any scale of existance?  The entire basis of Science is Prediction. 

All Athiests believe in scientific predestination.  Unless they believe in forces beyond science, which of course makes them not Athiest.

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 11:36:14 PM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Lucky, I am not being deliberately obtuse or disagreeable, and as much as you hear me repeating myself, missing your point and making no sense, I can assure you that my experience of your ideas is identical.

I think we might be labouring under two different definitions of predeterminism (aka. predestination).

To me the term means that every event that will occur already has - like the film waiting on the reel for its moment in the light. In most definitions I can find, they explicitly mention a deity running the projector and presumably, producing the film.

So by common definitions alone it is not possible for an Atheist to be a predeterminist too.

Over to you.


Z.


< Message edited by Zensee -- 2/13/2008 11:38:57 PM >

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RE: Astrology - 2/13/2008 11:50:13 PM   
Feric


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From: San Francisco
Status: offline 		Astrology, like any pseudo-science, offers vague reassurances and is totally credible to those who want to believe in it. It offers a shortcut to quick answers and a background of hundreds of years of believers who prefer to follow star patterns than logic. A lot of people believe in astrology because they want to. That's the nature of free will, and it's not something that can be easily explained.

However, in my humble opinion, I consider astrology dangerously seductive because it's a quick way to abdicate responsibility for your actions: "I'm not to blame because my destiny is written in the stars." I think a lot of people can fool themselves this way, at least until their crimes or mistakes become too great.

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RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 12:21:25 AM   
heartcream


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I just love love LOVE, when all the right brain thinkers collide with the left brain thinkers on threads like these!!



Oh, LaTigresse, I was thinking the same thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It's crazy....I once met a witch off of CM. I had no interest in her other than the fact that I had never met a witch before.
Witches are a drag. I'm judging that if you've met one witch then you have pretty much met them all. So I think it is safe to say that witches suck ass.


I would rather spend time with a witch then someone who really placed faith in their horoscope. Either way you know you are dealing with someone that is off their rocker....There are zillions of people that are looking in all the wrong places to make sense of their world.


People who believe or have the need to believe strike me as no different the the young girl who has a kid because she needs to be loved. It's an illusion. Whatever happiness that is derived comes at a price...Too often that price is having to make a serious compromise....Whether it be your beliefs, your intelligence, or your integrity.

But then as lucky said this whole thing is predetermined...We are all riding on a ball of shit hurtling through space being propelled by dung beetles whom seem to be the only ones that know what their exact purpose consists of.



The thing about witches for example--9 million women were burned as witches back in the day. I would have to disagree that to know one witch is to know them all. Women who knew how to grow and use medicinal herbs were burned as witches. Women who knew how to deliver babies were killed as witches. Women who smoked pot and had sex with men who were not their husbands because they refused to get married, or black men, these women were killed as witches. Hell, really all you had to be was hot and they would fry you up.

If you mean you dated a girl with white make up wearing a pentagram, well, I dont know much about those witches.



< Message edited by heartcream -- 2/14/2008 12:48:47 AM >

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RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 12:27:14 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Andrew, many, If not all, Athiests believe in an absolute predetermination.  It logically follows that every event, down to the thoughts in our heads, are just physical reactions.  The universe is just a giant machine operating from its start point.  Scientists don't see messages in the stars about it, but generally are 100% deterministic.

Not that I am defending Astrology.  I suspect telling people since they are small children, "you are a scorpio and scorpios are...", has a degree of psychological impact.
Really? Are you an atheist? What do you mean by "predetermination?" How do you know scientists are "100% deterministic"?

I have seen you do this twice now, postulating some horseshit premise, and then doing the "it logically follows that..." schtick.

First off, do you know most atheists? Have they personally told you what they think about "predeterminism"? (do you mean predestination? That event a ---> event b ----> event 200034A, thus there is causality for N-1 events?)
Now, atheism is not having a belief in a deity. (it is NOT having a belief that there is NOT a deity.) Not having a belief in a deity does not exclude believing in beings from other planes of existence which may influence events in this plane.
If a being from another plane influences an event in this plane, is there a direct physical causal chain from the event preceding it? Of course not. (there are other problems with this example, but they are outside the scope of this discussion)
Then the statement "It logically follows that..." is not true.

At any rate, I consider Astrology to be nonsence.

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RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 12:50:22 AM   
Nineveh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It's crazy....I once met a witch off of CM. I had no interest in her other than the fact that I had never met a witch before.
Witches are a drag. I'm judging that if you've met one witch then you have pretty much met them all. So I think it is safe to say that witches suck ass.




I used to think the same thing about christians, it's amazing what a difference meeting more than one or two people from the categories one is prejudiced against does though.

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RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 12:55:00 AM   
Nineveh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Andrew, many, If not all, Athiests believe in an absolute predetermination.  It logically follows that every event, down to the thoughts in our heads, are just physical reactions.  The universe is just a giant machine operating from its start point.  Scientists don't see messages in the stars about it, but generally are 100% deterministic.

Not that I am defending Astrology.  I suspect telling people since they are small children, "you are a scorpio and scorpios are...", has a degree of psychological impact.
Really? Are you an atheist? What do you mean by "predetermination?" How do you know scientists are "100% deterministic"?

I have seen you do this twice now, postulating some horseshit premise, and then doing the "it logically follows that..." schtick.

First off, do you know most atheists? Have they personally told you what they think about "predeterminism"? (do you mean predestination? That event a ---> event b ----> event 200034A, thus there is causality for N-1 events?)
Now, atheism is not having a belief in a deity. (it is NOT having a belief that there is NOT a deity.) Not having a belief in a deity does not exclude believing in beings from other planes of existence which may influence events in this plane.
If a being from another plane influences an event in this plane, is there a direct physical causal chain from the event preceding it? Of course not. (there are other problems with this example, but they are outside the scope of this discussion)
Then the statement "It logically follows that..." is not true.

At any rate, I consider Astrology to be nonsence.


I think you may have confused Atheism with Agnosticism.  Agnostics don't have a belief in a diety, or belief in any other concrete concepts of that nature such as the lack of a diety.  Atheists generally have faith in the lack of a diety.

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RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 1:42:44 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Andrew, many, If not all, Athiests believe in an absolute predetermination.  It logically follows that every event, down to the thoughts in our heads, are just physical reactions.  The universe is just a giant machine operating from its start point.  Scientists don't see messages in the stars about it, but generally are 100% deterministic.

Not that I am defending Astrology.  I suspect telling people since they are small children, "you are a scorpio and scorpios are...", has a degree of psychological impact.
Really? Are you an atheist? What do you mean by "predetermination?" How do you know scientists are "100% deterministic"?

I have seen you do this twice now, postulating some horseshit premise, and then doing the "it logically follows that..." schtick.

First off, do you know most atheists? Have they personally told you what they think about "predeterminism"? (do you mean predestination? That event a ---> event b ----> event 200034A, thus there is causality for N-1 events?)
Now, atheism is not having a belief in a deity. (it is NOT having a belief that there is NOT a deity.) Not having a belief in a deity does not exclude believing in beings from other planes of existence which may influence events in this plane.
If a being from another plane influences an event in this plane, is there a direct physical causal chain from the event preceding it? Of course not. (there are other problems with this example, but they are outside the scope of this discussion)
Then the statement "It logically follows that..." is not true.

At any rate, I consider Astrology to be nonsence.


I think you may have confused Atheism with Agnosticism.  Agnostics don't have a belief in a diety, or belief in any other concrete concepts of that nature such as the lack of a diety.  Atheists generally have faith in the lack of a diety.


I haven't confused anything with anything. I'm an atheist. Don't presume to tell me what I believe.

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RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 11:09:40 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Ok so will all the Athiests who believe there are alternate planes that are not part of our universe which have beings that affect/causes events in our universe, please stand up. 


That is one of the most ridiculous things I have seen asserted here.  An Athiest who believes in  gods (beings from another plane who intervene in ours).  You are as confused about what Athiesm means as you are Social Libertarianism, hippie.


Zen, consider this, "I am pretty certain that, given the complexity of the universe and the manner in which minuscule differences in initial conditions amplify over time, "  But no matter how many events occur, what other than scientific laws govern the out come of them.  I am making no claim that scientist think they can know all this stuff, but that they think there is a concrete rule governing each event.  Absolutly no event will occur other than which is mathmatically neccessary from the Rules discovered by science.  Time and complexity do not matter at all, the same laws get implemented an infinite number of times, and everytime.  You are right it is far easier to predict large events than small ones.  Science absolutly thinks it can discover the eventuall fate of our universe (there are 2 basic camps, collapse into a super black hole or a cold energy death). science is all about prediction, based on every event happening for paticular reasons.

Another way of considering it is random number generator in a computer.  They aren't really random, they can't be.  But you can't predict them either.  Depending on the instant you activate it it grabs some values from the Operating System, and does a series of calculations, giving a number.  IF all of the relevant input was the exact same, you wold get the same number everytime.  Its determined. 

It seems to me that either there is a force from other planes outside of not part of our universe, that affects some or all events or every event (down to the chemical reactions that give rise to our thoughts, which affect what input we get, affecting our next thought/choices, ect),  is governed by Scinetific law.  Every event that has ever occured, and will occur is goverened soley by scientific law.  No scientist will say that they know everything and predict the lottery numbers next week (Many Psuedo scientists make thier living doing just that).  But the numbers will be only what they can be.

I get your point on Anti entropy, and conceed.  A growing crystal is also Anti entropic by that definiton, and it grows purley according to scientific laws, with absolutly no free will.  According to Athiestic Science.  Same goes for The entire universe(which is an anti entropic system also), and every event that has ever or will ever occur is predetermined by scientific law,which will hold true from the moment of creation to the last instant of it.  Free will is nothing but an illusion, your thoughts are just byproducts of a collection of cells throwing chemicals into a computing system, because it is in thier best intrest to do so.  You have no soul, and there is no you to have a will free or not.

You Athiests keep telling us people who do believe there is a Divine, that we can't face the cold hard truth of reality.  The existance of Free will is one of those things you have to throw away to see the cold hard reality of Science. 

Seriously what other force can cause things other than scientific law (which is deterministic and predictive in its totality), from an Athiestic perspective?  Hippie gave one already, Beings from a different plane.....  Got another.

Kurt Vonnegut JR did the best explaining of what I am talking about in one of his books but I forget which one, I think it had the Son of the Friend of Hitler character in it, Breakfast of Champions, perhaps?

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 2/14/2008 11:13:40 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Astrology - 2/14/2008 11:14:02 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		There too, I feel a lot of Taurean finger-waving. Can I do your chart, luckydog? For free? As an experiment?

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