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Non-consensual play - 9/12/2005 6:15:17 PM   
Paul1974


Posts: 6
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hi all was looking for some information on non-consensual forms of play. I find it a difficult area as it truly wouldn't be non-consensual with a submissivew who has consented to this, more like consensual non-consensual play. It is an area that has been brought to my attention by my submissive as an area she would enjoy exploring. This may be considered a form of topping from the bottom so to speak but our relationship is quite open on the ability to make requests, and this is simply one of them. Any related posts or opinions on this would be greatly appreciated so as to fully understand the topic.
Cheers
Paul
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RE: Non-consensual play - 9/12/2005 6:19:56 PM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul1974

Hi all was looking for some information on non-consensual forms of play. I find it a difficult area as it truly wouldn't be non-consensual with a submissivew who has consented to this, more like consensual non-consensual play. It is an area that has been brought to my attention by my submissive as an area she would enjoy exploring. This may be considered a form of topping from the bottom so to speak but our relationship is quite open on the ability to make requests, and this is simply one of them. Any related posts or opinions on this would be greatly appreciated so as to fully understand the topic.
Cheers
Paul


Greetings,

There are many who conscent to nonconscent. This simply means that we conscent to what everour Owners deem approriatefor us or them. There are many things that I do wish to do and do not openly conscent todo but as His I have to trust that he will NEVER do anything to harm me emotionally or physically.

I am not sure if this is what you mean.

< Message edited by Phoenixandnika -- 9/12/2005 6:20:30 PM >

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RE: Non-consensual play - 9/12/2005 9:17:59 PM   
Sub03


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/30/2005
Status: offline 		Play rape is a form of noncensual play. Consensual nonconsensual sex that is acted out as a rape.

(in reply to Phoenixandnika)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Non-consensual play - 9/13/2005 2:32:48 AM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I know Mine has already replied to this, but I wanted to add some things.
Non-consent, play-rape, however you wish to call it, can not only be fun, but stimulating. depending on how much both partners get into the scene, the heart can race and emotions can swing.

I was a voyeur to resistance play and found that even on the outside, I was excited. Everything from knife play, to bondage, to ...well lol, an accidental kick from sub to Dom in the head. but overall, I saw the range of emotions, and not just the 'fear' but the softness as well.

It is important I feel that throughout a scene like that, to make sure that the Dom/Domme take time out to ensure Their partner is ok. Maintaining closeness throughout the scene, not only accomplishes this, but raises emotional heights.

I hope this has helped, and I wish you well.

Phoenix.

_____________________________

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/3/2005 6:01:39 AM   
wantinaSireorSir


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/12/2005
Status: offline 		i agree with you

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Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Non-consensual play - 10/3/2005 6:09:58 AM   
night101owl


Posts: 83
Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		Any play that involves the provision of a safeword is consensual nonconsent, because it allows the bottom to say "no" without ending the scene. I'd say that just about any kind of BDSM play can therefore be a consensual nonconsent scene.

And I would strongly disagree with the characterization that a bottom who expresses an interest in something is "topping from the bottom." Every couple/group determines for themselves how they are going to exchange power, and I expect it would be very rare to find a situation where a submissive gives up hir voice as to communicating outside the scene what ze finds interesting.

(in reply to Paul1974)
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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/3/2005 7:00:07 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl

Any play that involves the provision of a safeword is consensual nonconsent, because it allows the bottom to say "no" without ending the scene. I'd say that just about any kind of BDSM play can therefore be a consensual nonconsent scene.


That's the exact opposite of how I understand and use the words "consensual non-consent." I use the words to mean that within the larger context of the relationship she consents to my authority, even though she often doesn't consent to my actions at the moment.

A safeword or some kind of opt-out would defeat consensual non-consent. The whole point is she doesn't like a lot of what I do - and yet she loves that I do it. Does that make sense? It's sort of paradoxical, but it only works between us if she knows I will do things, by force if required, that sometimes she doesn't want.

An example would be her getting mouthy with me and me backhanding her off her feet. At the moment she doesn't consent to it - would never accede to it - and yet within the larger framework and context of the relationship it she desperately needs it.

I think a very common variant of consensual non-consent is "only one us needs to be in the mood, and it ain't you."

This sort of thing is controversial - you'll have some people wringing their hands over this relationship model, sure that it is abuse cloaked in a type of BDSM vernacular. Others get it.

(in reply to night101owl)
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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/3/2005 7:29:36 AM   
Gem


Posts: 100
Joined: 2/11/2004
Status: offline 		Brightest Blessings

Consetual non-con can be a way of life (give consent once and then never again) or you could do it in scene related things.

Consentual non-con scenes can be but are not limited to anything from rape, forced orgy,resitanceplay ( where the "bottom" fights back hard) to busting thru a "hard limit" that before this had been off limits.

Non-con is basically where they have given their consent to do or go thru anything you want to do to them, you do not have to check in for consent or negotiate the scene, it is basically the bottom giving the top (using generics here folks use the label that works for you) blanket consent to do whatever.

Non-con play is edgy and you should know your partner very very well..nothing like playing non-con with a new person and they have morning after regrets.

Use of safewords in my opinion gives the bottom a way out, not using safewords means that they are there for the long haul with no safe outs.

Blessed Be
Gem

(in reply to night101owl)
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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/3/2005 1:21:04 PM   
Soulhuntre


Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul1974
Hi all was looking for some information on non-consensual forms of play. I find it a difficult area as it truly wouldn't be non-consensual with a submissivew who has consented to this, more like consensual non-consensual play.


I think consensual non-consent is a pretty cool thing personally... and it can indeed be "truely" non-consensual at least for most common definitions of consent.

Commonly, consent is assumed to be something that is instantly revokable - the old "no means no" thing. In a consensual non-consent scene this is no longer ture. That means that the even may well occours despite the wishes of the subject - even after they have really revoked consent and they "mean it".

(in reply to Paul1974)
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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/3/2005 1:42:47 PM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

That's the exact opposite of how I understand and use the words "consensual non-consent." I use the words to mean that within the larger context of the relationship she consents to my authority, even though she often doesn't consent to my actions at the moment.

A safeword or some kind of opt-out would defeat consensual non-consent. The whole point is she doesn't like a lot of what I do - and yet she loves that I do it. Does that make sense? It's sort of paradoxical, but it only works between us if she knows I will do things, by force if required, that sometimes she doesn't want.


That is exactly put, perfectly how I like things in my relationship with Master.

~ Elektra

(in reply to Faramir)
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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/4/2005 7:05:43 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		What a helluva thing you found someone who fits with you that way Elektra. I feel incredibly blessed that SMS and I met - the already tiny dating pool of "BDSM" gets miniscule when you are talking about a consensual non-consent framework for the entire relationship.

It's my impression that a sort of episodic dynamic that touches close to c/n-c is not all that uncommon - plenty of people want a force scene, rape scene, etc. Being "made" to do a given kink is not the same though as having an entire relationship framework where you have surrendered the right to give consent to what is done to you, or you are forced to do.

(in reply to ElektraUkM)
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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/4/2005 7:48:32 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		In reality, consensual/nonconsensual relationship is what a Gorean Master has with his kajira. No limits.. No safe words.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/4/2005 7:55:34 AM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		It's an Oximoron.....consentual/non-consentual....Like No means yes....or Military intelligence

I agree to disagree

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Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/4/2005 11:33:38 AM   
firefighteremt


Posts: 24
Joined: 7/5/2005
From: Buffalo NY (AREA)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl

Any play that involves the provision of a safeword is consensual nonconsent, because it allows the bottom to say "no" without ending the scene. I'd say that just about any kind of BDSM play can therefore be a consensual nonconsent scene.


That's the exact opposite of how I understand and use the words "consensual non-consent." I use the words to mean that within the larger context of the relationship she consents to my authority, even though she often doesn't consent to my actions at the moment.

A safeword or some kind of opt-out would defeat consensual non-consent. The whole point is she doesn't like a lot of what I do - and yet she loves that I do it. Does that make sense? It's sort of paradoxical, but it only works between us if she knows I will do things, by force if required, that sometimes she doesn't want.

An example would be her getting mouthy with me and me backhanding her off her feet. At the moment she doesn't consent to it - would never accede to it - and yet within the larger framework and context of the relationship it she desperately needs it.

I think a very common variant of consensual non-consent is "only one us needs to be in the mood, and it ain't you."

This sort of thing is controversial - you'll have some people wringing their hands over this relationship model, sure that it is abuse cloaked in a type of BDSM vernacular. Others get it.



That is exactly how I understand it too. Its something that at the time she would never want...but in the context of our relationship its something that she very much wants and needs. I guess its kind of hard to explain if its something you've never had though

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 4:46:05 AM   
candigirlll


Posts: 32
Joined: 4/22/2005
Status: offline 		no in reality there is really no Gor Masters and lil Kajira's will never serve paga lol... in reality what people confuse Gor with is old Guard.. which is much the same no safe words...con/non con between Master and slave....PEOPLE!!!Gor is a make believe planet....YOU ARE NOT A GOR MASTER!!!!!


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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 4:51:21 AM   
candigirlll


Posts: 32
Joined: 4/22/2005
Status: offline 		oh all slave girls have limits indeed Sir.... we just dont always know what they are untill our Master tells us lol~~~

(in reply to firefighteremt)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 5:16:26 AM   
pastplayingames


Posts: 50
Status: offline
quote:

Being "made" to do a given kink is not the same though as having an entire relationship framework where you have surrendered the right to give consent to what is done to you, or you are forced to do.


Faramir,

Recently had a few conversations about this very topic.
This was a poignant comment made in the course of one of those discussions about relationships:
Consent given as license is still consent. Simply because there is no actual negotiation of a specific event, does not make it non-consentual.
(I value his wisdom, among other things *s*.)

This is what I thought of when you wrote: 'relationship framework where you have surrendered the right to give consent to what is done to you'.

~Christine

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 5:35:37 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candigirlll

no in reality there is really no Gor Masters and lil Kajira's will never serve paga lol... in reality what people confuse Gor with is old Guard.. which is much the same no safe words...con/non con between Master and slave....PEOPLE!!!Gor is a make believe planet....YOU ARE NOT A GOR MASTER!!!!!


One distinct difference between Old Guard and Gor is that the Old Guard was exclusively gay.

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 5:48:45 AM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candigirlll
no in reality there is really no Gor Masters and lil Kajira's will never serve paga lol... in reality what people confuse Gor with is old Guard.. which is much the same no safe words...con/non con between Master and slave....PEOPLE!!!Gor is a make believe planet....YOU ARE NOT A GOR MASTER!!!!!


The gay leather community and a lifestyle based on a belief of natural male dominance/female submission are the same because they have formality, a lack of safewords and total consent in common? That's like saying someone is confusing a turkey and a chicken because they both have feathers.

Contrary to popular belief, people that live a Gorean lifestyle in the real world are not under the deluded impression that we live on another planet. I will chalk up your rude, vicious, inappropriate little outburst to the obvious ignorance on which it is based. It seems what is confused here is online roleplay Gor with people living by a Gorean philosophy in the real world.

_____________________________

Krys

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RE: Non-consensual play - 10/15/2005 6:12:16 AM   
candigirlll


Posts: 32
Joined: 4/22/2005
Status: offline 		This is true but i am speaking of how the Old Guard ways were adopted into other house holds as far as the strictness...

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 20
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