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RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 9:51:14 AM

RealityLicks

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FR -

As you all know, in the UK, we aren't armed. The first incident here like yesterday's tragedy led to a strict tightening of the law so you can only get a license if you shoot at a club (and keep your weapons there) or need a shotgun for pest control if you live in a rural area.

Criminals are increasingly getting weapons here, cheap imports from eastern Europe. They tend to be bought by drugs guys to protect themselves and their patches from others of their ilk.

It struck me that although sometimes innocent bystanders are hit during the outbreaks of violence of these criminals, it is still even now, unheard of for the stereotyped wild-eyed loner to get a weapon and shoot into a crowd, as happens more and more frequently in the US. Does that mean that the criminal gun sellers here in the UK are more discerning in whom they supply than legitimate gun dealers in the US?

It still seems to me however, that America is in love with their guns. Some people talk about shooting petty criminals and doling out vigilante justice regularly on here. While I understand the need to be safe from armed assailants, is there not also a certain approval for "justified" shooting in your country? If you could wave a magic wand and make all teh guns in private hands disappear, would you do so?

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 41

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 9:56:44 AM

Moloch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Why does it work everywhere else?

Like Germany? Gun controll there worked Really good!!!
Communist in the oven!
Gay ? In the oven!!!
Jew ? In the oven!!!

Gun controll worked in USSR really good too, they disarmed Ukranian population and turned the country into a death camp in mid 1930's. Well over 10 million Ukranians dead.

But you are right gun control is good, makes it more easy for criminals. Insread of worrying about being shot bunch of thugs can corner a woman gang rape her and cut her throat, but hey dont worry atleast she wont be shot!!!

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 42

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:01:59 AM

Jeffff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Reference?

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706

For what it's worth

Jeff

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 43

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:03:22 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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There's so much wrong with your post, I'm going to let you off the hook: I presume you are feeling emotional at the moment (something I understand perfectly).

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Post #: 44

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:03:47 AM

RealityLicks

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Most rapes are by people known to the victim, not opportunist gangs. If we legalised firearms, couldn't rapists get them, too?

Also, I am not convinced having small arms will prevent a determined attack from a military force - but how many of us live in a country where that is a realistic possibility? You really expect pogroms to occur in the USA?

(in reply to Moloch)

Post #: 45

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:05:21 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

You really expect pogroms to occur in the USA?

Imagine if the KKK still roamed free and had bred more: I'd be flying back to Europe in a jiffy.

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Post #: 46

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:08:18 AM

Alumbrado

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As brought up time and again, this was another one of the epidemic of suicides, and clearly part of the trend to get media attention by taking out others.

If people buy into the superstitious argument that guns are causing people to commit violent acts, there isn't much to discuss.

If people believe that other things can cause self destructive behaviors, then perhaps they might want to address that issue.

I suspect though, that this thread will continue to be mainly political grandstanding on the bodies of the victims.

(in reply to Moloch)

Post #: 47

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:09:26 AM

Moloch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Most rapes are by people known to the victim, not opportunist gangs. If we legalised firearms, couldn't rapists get them, too?

Also, I am not convinced having small arms will prevent a determined attack from a military force - but how many of us live in a country where that is a realistic possibility? You really expect pogroms to occur in the USA?

Pogroms no, look back to 50's and 60's it was called lynching, talked to a white woman? Get dragged behind a pick up truck, talk back to white man get lynched. There were whole sets of laws in the south to prevent blacks from owning guns. The results are self evident.

1811 Louisiana Complete gun ban for slaves. Act of April 8, 1811, ch.
14, 1811 Laws of La. 50, 53-54, forbade sale or
delivery of firearms to slaves. (Id.)

1840 Texas Complete gun ban for slaves. "An Act Concerning
Slaves," Sec. 6, 1840 Laws of Tex. 171, 172, ch. 58
of the Texas Acts of 1850 prohibited slaves from using
firearms altogether from 1842-1850

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Post #: 48

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:13:08 AM

Jeffff

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Agreed

Jeff

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Post #: 49

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:21:10 AM

RealityLicks

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You haven't answered my questions. First things first.

So far you've come up with two good reasons why no-one should carry guns and I'm not sure many places in the US allow concealed weapons, which are the only ones which would help in the instances you outline.

(in reply to Moloch)

Post #: 50

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:27:20 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

If people buy into the superstitious argument that guns are causing people to commit violent acts, there isn't much to discuss.

Are you denying the existence of gun culture?

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Post #: 51

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:29:55 AM

RealityLicks

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

If people buy into the superstitious argument that guns are causing people to commit violent acts, there isn't much to discuss.

Far from it. A significant percentage of gun injuries in the UK are people caught in the cross-fire - unintentional victims. There's nothing superstitious about wanting people like that to be insulated from those you term "suicides".

As someone who recently lost a friend to suicide, I'd like you to know you're talking bullshit.

quote:

If people believe that other things can cause self destructive behaviors, then perhaps they might want to address that issue.

Go on. Enlighten us.

Who voted you the arbitrator of what people should or shouldn't discuss? You make no sense.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 52

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:30:12 AM

GhoSSt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't see why: if gun escalation is the solution, we might as well go all the way.

Actually, the exact opposite is the truth, if the FBI's crime statistics are to be believed.

<image removed>

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 2/15/2008 12:32:01 PM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 53

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:32:14 AM

RealityLicks

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And what would the handgun homicide rate be if there were no handguns?

All this table shows is that there are better ways of accounting for the number of guns there are.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 2/15/2008 10:33:49 AM >

(in reply to GhoSSt)

Post #: 54

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:32:27 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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You might like to familiarise yourself with the ToS...

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Post #: 55

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:35:11 AM

GhoSSt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
As you all know, in the UK, we aren't armed. The first incident here like yesterday's tragedy led to a strict tightening of the law so you can only get a license if you shoot at a club (and keep your weapons there) or need a shotgun for pest control if you live in a rural area.

Criminals are increasingly getting weapons here, cheap imports from eastern Europe. They tend to be bought by drugs guys to protect themselves and their patches from others of their ilk.

<image removed>

UK's violent crime rate is staggering. And the reports are that the Home Office is fiddling with the numbers to try and make it look 'better'. I'll take my chances with the gun nuts in the US than to be unarmed (even knives) in the UK.

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 2/15/2008 12:33:02 PM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 56

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:39:46 AM

RealityLicks

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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Go ahead and attack the UK, I actually don't mind. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not pitting my country against yours in a popularity contest. I do not live in utopia. I have had knives pulled on me and once a gun.

If you disagree with my arguments, let me hear yours - you might change my views and I'd be glad. But don't fall for the line of those who want to shut down debate. This is the web - you know; free exchange of ideas. What are you afraid of?

(in reply to GhoSSt)

Post #: 57

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:43:03 AM

GhoSSt

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Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Go ahead and attack the UK, I actually don't mind. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not pitting my country against yours in a popularity contest. I do not live in utopia. I have had knives pulled on me and once a gun.

If you disagree with my arguments, let me hear yours - you might change my views and I'd be glad. But don't fall for the line of those who want to shut down debate. This is the web - you know; free exchange of ideas. What are you afraid of?

I'm not attacking anyone. Nowhere do you see me having typed 'The UK sucks' in my message. I merely said that given the choice between two possibilities: 1) being attacked while armed and 2) being attacked while disarmed, I choose the former and not the latter. Nothing more, nothing less.

< Message edited by GhoSSt -- 2/15/2008 10:44:33 AM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 58

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:46:07 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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The solution, then, is for all of us to walk around with weapons in our hands at all times?

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Post #: 59

RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:51:48 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
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That's your prerogative, you'd need a visa to test its efficacy any way. Its worth noting that fewer than 60 people were shot in the UK last year, although admittedly four times that number were stabbed. That's one person in a million. That figure alarms me, too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

I'm just glad we haven't seen a "trend" for murder-suicides. Good luck on the mean streets.

edited spelling

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 2/15/2008 10:54:01 AM >

(in reply to GhoSSt)

Post #: 60

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