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RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:37:57 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Maybe a dose of mental instability when combined with access to some major weaponry is the "smallpox" for this millenium.


In the field of memetic biology, it could be considered a memetic virus.

We've always been violent, though, so I'm not convinced the analysis is as simple as we may think.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:41:25 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

I suspect though, that this thread will continue to be mainly political grandstanding on the bodies of the victims.



Thanks for your show of continued and compassionate restraint in this matter.


Z.


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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:47:08 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		In the interest of returning to the original topic...

The question isn't how these murders are committed.

The real question is why they are committed.

The dead were people, not soapboxes.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:56:14 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Actually, Owner's thread is more like a general newsflash than like a question. I think we can pick at the subject in any light we like.

Why don't you see that there is a correlation between how and why these horrible murders occur? Is the link so obscure that nobody sees it?

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:58:19 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		The reasons for the "why" are endless. "Mommy didn't love me enough." "Mommy loved me too much.". " My girl friend dumped me". " I lost my job". I don't see how this can be stopped.

Jeff

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 1:01:41 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		The Cato institute is not some fringe group. And once again, Google "Gary Kleck"

Jeff

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 1:08:44 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		FR
  • In 2005 there were more than 14,000 gun murders in the US - with 400 of the victims children.
  • There are 16,000 suicides by firearm and 650 fatal accidents in an average year.
  • Since the killing of John F Kennedy in 1963, more Americans have died by American gunfire than perished on foreign battlefields in the whole of the 20th century.
  • Studies show that having a gun at home makes it six times more likely that an abused woman will be murdered.
  • A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack.

From "Armed America" by Kyle Cassidy

To respond to the suggestion that having a gun makes for greater security, in some cases that may be true but you could also argue that those who own weapons in low crime areas - as most do - is pointless.  The reason there is more gun crime in Mass. than N H seems obvious to me: there is more poverty, unemployment and possibly drug dependency in a metropolitan area.

To argue that guns create security moves the argument away from why people commit crimes in the first place and instead focuses on phony ideas of "safety".  There are 2000 gun shows each year in America, its big business and a powerful lobby is behind this myth that the right to bear arms is the thin end of the wedge.  Historically, a much smaller percentage of Americans owned guns than do today - the pioneers quite often couldn't afford them and were as likely to use them as clubs rather than firearms.

The gun is corporate America's new cigarette. 

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 2/15/2008 1:12:35 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 1:17:45 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		An excerpt;

It is irresponsible to further disseminate the NCVS
estimates as realistic indications of how often Americans use
guns for self-defense. And, regardless of where one stands on the
wisdom of gun control, it would be irresponsible to devise gun
control policies without taking into account the millions of
times guns are used in this way by crime victims. While amateurs
such as Vernick are perfectly entitled to express their personal
opinions on gun control, they are not entitled to pass themselves
off as experts on survey research methodology, or to present
their undoubtedly heartfelt personal opinions on defensive use of
guns as if they were based on a scholarly, evenhanded assessment
of evidence. For a somewhat more intellectually serious
consideration of this issue, you might consider the enclosed
paper, as well as the prior research summarized therein.


Sincerely,

(signed)
Gary Kleck
Professor

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 2/15/2008 1:18:35 PM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 1:18:35 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

The reasons for the "why" are endless. "Mommy didn't love me enough." "Mommy loved me too much.". " My girl friend dumped me". " I lost my job". I don't see how this can be stopped.

Jeff


(my italics)

.......they are only endless if we generalise. Each specific event has specific whys. By looking at specifics we maybe be able to create a general rule......not the other way round.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 1:20:21 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		A general rule for what? The shooter always has an issue. That issue leads to violence. The violence leads to the death of innocent people. I don't see how a general rule would alter either the cause, or the effect

Jeff


< Message edited by Jeffff -- 2/15/2008 1:22:08 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 2:07:54 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

A general rule for what? The shooter always has an issue. That issue leads to violence. The violence leads to the death of innocent people. I don't see how a general rule would alter either the cause, or the effect

Jeff



....a general rule may be helpful in preventing future tragedy. i agree knowing the specific cause doesn't help in a specific effect, but better study may lead us to a place where we can spot such potential killers earlier and take preventative action.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 3:18:19 PM   
GhoSSt


Posts: 15
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

FR
  • In 2005 there were more than 14,000 gun murders in the US - with 400 of the victims children.
  • There are 16,000 suicides by firearm and 650 fatal accidents in an average year.
  • Since the killing of John F Kennedy in 1963, more Americans have died by American gunfire than perished on foreign battlefields in the whole of the 20th century.
  • Studies show that having a gun at home makes it six times more likely that an abused woman will be murdered.
  • A gun in a US home is 22 times more likely to be used in an accidental shooting, a murder or a suicide than in self-defence against an attack.
From "Armed America" by Kyle Cassidy 


I take especial affront to that last quote, especially since Mr. Cassidy is a noted anti gun advocate. There is, in the US a strict reporting system for all guns used in crime. There is however, no reporting requirement if you use a firearm sucessfully to defend ones self. So where he pulls this 22x is completly from the Agency of Numbers Pulled Out Of A Monkeys Ass.

A good reporter perhaps, but hardly a neutral viewpoint or a vetted statistician.

GhoSSt

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 4:12:51 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Why don't you see that there is a correlation between how and why these horrible murders occur? Is the link so obscure that nobody sees it?


By using the word why, I was referencing intent.

If I want to kill someone, it doesn't matter whether guns exist or not. That just dictates the methods available to me.
Yes, some methods are more likely to succeed (like knives), and some have side effects (like guns), etc.
No, the methods are not causally linked to the intent, merely to the consequences of it.

That leaves us with two questions to consider.

First, there is the question of results. We have the benefit of there being places with, and places without, gun control. If the right set of statistics are collected, we can find out what the cost and gain are for each option, and pad the difference with liberty (as an individual, I default to the position that a representative state should adopt a policy of non-interference with lives). The cost and gain must be well documented, and itemized. If anyone truly cared about which is the better option, that is what they would focus on. Questions include the causal relationship, as well as the extent to which accidents are confined to the person opting to own a gun or not. I am interested in the cost to non-parties to the decision to own one. If the net number of accidents wherein the victims are not the owner of the gun or his/her household (cf. statistics on drowning; we allow the HoH to choose that risk for a household), plus the number of wrongful uses of a legally owned gun, are less than the reduction in violent crime, then it is clear that they should be allowed. If the reduction is less, however, then it is equally clear that it becomes a question of tradeoffs between lives lost and liberties lost.

Second, there is the question of causes. In this, I can only say that I see that there is a complex interplay of factors that together make up a system whose complexity is such that my feeble mind is unable to grasp more than the faintest outline of it. Greater minds may be able to contain it, but an equally reasonable option is to rely on the ultimate computer: reality. By resolving the factors we can observe and clearly demonstrate (and there's plenty of those to deal with; gun control does not stand alone in determining life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness), we incrementally improve things for everyone. And in my experience, doing so makes the system progressively less complicated, as the noise is lowered and the individual remaining factors become apparent. Thus, it seems useful to get the whole question of gun control out of the way by addressing the results as I outlined above, so we can get on with improving other aspects of our lives and the societies within which we live them.

Perhaps I have made my point clearer now.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 4:19:18 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

In the interest of returning to the original topic...

The question isn't how these murders are committed.

The real question is why they are committed.

The dead were people, not soapboxes.

Health,
al-Aswad.



I've already pointed out why these murders happen. There just aren't enough guns in circulation. Guns should be given out free as a social welfare issue. If there was enough guns in circulation this bloke wouldn't have had to commit suicide after he got bored of shooting people, someone would have downed him before that.

There usually is just no logic in these threads about guns.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 7:00:18 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GhoSSt

Massad Ayoob's self defense priorities rank self defense thusly:

Mindset
Tactics
Skill
Gear (weapons)

I'm a dangerous person because I see the evil that humankind creates and prepare myself accordingly. My Mindset. I'm not 'paranoid' simply aware.

I train regularly in both weapons/hand to hand and mental scenarios. These provide my tactics and skills.

Weapons are tools and nothing more. Given my druthers, I'd prefer a rifle to a pistol, a pistol to a knife and a knife to a jagged, broken DVD to saw thru a perp neck. But I'll take what I can get. I carry a gun because carrying a cop around is too heavy.


Mossad Ayoob has an interesting perspective, GhoSSt.  Although his teachings tend to revolve more around escaping from terrorists, fighting armed insurgencies, etc., and not really about how one deals with a drunken nitwit in a bar fight.  I trained for a while with Cliff Stewart (Mr. T's bodyguard and one of the most fascinatingly dangerous people I have ever met) and he said he had somebody tell him he was ugly in a bar.  Cliff's response was to say "I will leave so you wont have to look at me anymore" and left the bar. 

I dont see most people as evil.  I see people who assault other people as being adrenalized and have lost most of their cognitive abilities, small motor muscle control, etc.  If I keep my wits about me and use simple verbal strategies to avoid playing the other role in this script he imprinted under adrenalin in some distant past, I dont have much to fear from him.

The problem I have with carrying around a handgun were determined in all the classes I have taught which dealt with defending oneself against the armed assailant.  A gun is lovely, if, and only if, one is able to "get the jump" on the perp and then actually pulls their gun out and kills the other person.  If somebody pulls a gun on me and I am still alive, odds are fairly good I will talk my way out of the situation.  Failing that, I will get away (odds of actually hitting something decrease exponentially the more feet (being 12 inches) one gets between one and the gun).  Even if I am shot, one in four gunshots to the head are lethal and one in ten to center body mass are lethal.  Or I will end up beating the snot out of the person with the gun (we teach controlling the weapon and using our other weapons (knees, etc) to beat the crap out of the person.

Will the gun go off?  Will the bullet misfire?  Will I hit my target?  Will the perp have a friend using some dissembling verbal strategy to lower my guard so I dont have my gun out in time?  I am not worried because I have a lot of faith in my awareness skills.  I need them, I have verbal skills.  My verbal skills dont work, I am ready for that as well.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to GhoSSt)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 7:11:33 PM   
MichiganHeadmast


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/13/2006
Status: offline 		This event hits home for me.  I was a police officer at NIU for several years before moving to Michigan.  Handled a few crazies but thank God none ever went off like this.  (And don't get me wrong - NIU is a GREAT place and I loved working and going to school there.  The crazies were the rare exception).

And just FWIW, in 18 years of full-time law enforcement, I've always maintained that honest folks should have the right to bear arms.  I know some will disagree, but I've never in my career been threatened by a law-abiding person carrying a firearm. 

That said, may God keep the victims near Him, and be with the families and friends in their time of sorrow.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 7:22:25 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

And just FWIW, in 18 years of full-time law enforcement, I've always maintained that honest folks should have the right to bear arms. 



I agree with this completely, MichiganHeadmast.

What I lack is much of a belief that the dogma about keeping onself safe revolves around one's choice of a handgun, as espoused by the gun fetishists is based in extant reality.

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 7:33:28 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast

This event hits home for me.  I was a police officer at NIU for several years before moving to Michigan.  Handled a few crazies but thank God none ever went off like this.  (And don't get me wrong - NIU is a GREAT place and I loved working and going to school there.  The crazies were the rare exception).

And just FWIW, in 18 years of full-time law enforcement, I've always maintained that honest folks should have the right to bear arms.  I know some will disagree, but I've never in my career been threatened by a law-abiding person carrying a firearm. 

That said, may God keep the victims near Him, and be with the families and friends in their time of sorrow.



Honesty is not the issue.This guy had no record and was an honor student,apparently revered by the his teachers.He had written a policy paper on prisons and did other things that made him stand out.

But he got sick and was on meds.It`s when he went off of them that he went crazy.

People who are on meds shouldn`t have access to firearms,period.

Every fuck`n state in the union, from the strictest to the states w/ drive threw McGun shops,should at least not sell guns to people on medication.

~"The NRA" helping to arm the insane and murderous for over a 100 years~

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/15/2008 7:34:53 PM >

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 7:47:23 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I've already pointed out why these murders happen.


No, you have pointed out some aspects of how.

quote:

There usually is just no logic in these threads about guns.


Pot... kettle... anyway...

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 8:07:32 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MichiganHeadmast
And just FWIW, in 18 years of full-time law enforcement, I've always maintained that honest folks should have the right to bear arms.  I know some will disagree, but I've never in my career been threatened by a law-abiding person carrying a firearm. 

How in 18 years did you never go on a domestic violence call? Or is this a little exageration for the cause? Or are you hiding behind the fact that assault with a firearm means you're not a law abiding person any more?

BTW what type of call is most likely to result in an officer being injured? Does a gun in the house make a domestic violence call safer for the officers involved?

(in reply to MichiganHeadmast)
Profile   Post #: 100
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