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RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:52:21 AM   
GhoSSt


Posts: 15
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline 		Massad Ayoob's self defense priorities rank self defense thusly:

Mindset
Tactics
Skill
Gear (weapons)

I'm a dangerous person because I see the evil that humankind creates and prepare myself accordingly. My Mindset. I'm not 'paranoid' simply aware.

I train regularly in both weapons/hand to hand and mental scenarios. These provide my tactics and skills.

Weapons are tools and nothing more. Given my druthers, I'd prefer a rifle to a pistol, a pistol to a knife and a knife to a jagged, broken DVD to saw thru a perp neck. But I'll take what I can get. I carry a gun because carrying a cop around is too heavy.

< Message edited by GhoSSt -- 2/15/2008 10:53:17 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 10:54:59 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Fuck me.

(in reply to GhoSSt)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:00:29 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

If people buy into the superstitious argument that guns are causing people to commit violent acts, there isn't much to discuss.



Are you denying the existence of gun culture?


I'm denying the existence of direct mind control by inanimate objects.

Please feel free to provide support for any assertions to the contrary, James Randi has a million bucks with your name on it.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:01:48 AM   
joanus


Posts: 527
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GhoSSt

I'd prefer a rifle to a pistol, a pistol to a knife


I'd say your "tactics" are backwards. You along woth a lot of people seem to subscribe to the Biggger Toys = Bigger Boys.
It doesn't matter if you have a nuclear bomb, if the enemy you never knew was there slits your throat.

"The deadliest weapon on the battlefield is the man who armed with only his brain and nothing to lose."                         
               ~Grandfather Sune

"Stealth is the safest method on the battlefield, Because if you go in Running and Gunning your just going to get shot in the ass."               
              ~Grandfather Sune

"If you want to survive a war you side with the strongest force, if you want to live through a battle never stand in front of the American soliders."
              ~Grandfather Sune     

(in reply to GhoSSt)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:03:00 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No need to be so belligerent, Alumbrado. Besides, I think gambling's immoral :-) .

It's quite obvious that guns don't say "Come on then, trigger me". It doesn't mean they're not a source of murderous inspiration to people who may not have killed anyone had they not had them in their possession though.

_____________________________



(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:03:14 AM   
GhoSSt


Posts: 15
Joined: 1/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Fuck me.


Err. Sorry, but I'm taken. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a foremost writer on stress incident, says that people can be divided into three distinct catagories.

quote:


The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, And someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.


So the question is: What are we? Are we Sheep? Are we wolves? Are we sheepdogs?

I know that I am a sheepdog and would defend the life of another without hesitation and have done so in the past.





< Message edited by GhoSSt -- 2/15/2008 11:06:30 AM >

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:06:53 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I don't see it as an argument about more being better. For myself, if I am one day shot at, I would prefer to be able to shoot back. As it is I live in Illinois, a state that forbids carrying a weapon. I will not carry because the liability of carrying in huge. I would like to point out that Chicago has some of the toughest guns laws in the country, It is actually illegal to own a handgun in the city. Yet, people are shot with them every year.

Jeff


As it's a right to keep and bare arms not a "priviledge" like a driver's lisense I can't see how a "state" can ban anyone from carrying a gun.
I believe in "state's rights" and all but what if the state of Illinois suspended the first amendment, or the fourth, or the sixth?
I think what they've done is unconstitutional.
If (any) school is accepting *Taxpayer Dollars* they shouldn't be denying people their constitutional rights, period!
Those that try to should be cut off!
*No Money!*
See how long they last when they can't meet payroll.
They have signs on these campuses saying "No firearms on campus."
What if they had signs saying "No fourth amendment rights on campus."
Or, "No first amendment rights on campus for students."


_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:07:02 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

If people buy into the superstitious argument that guns are causing people to commit violent acts, there isn't much to discuss.


Far from it.  A significant percentage of gun injuries in the UK are people caught in the cross-fire - unintentional victims. There's nothing superstitious about wanting people like that to be insulated from those you term "suicides".

As someone who recently lost a friend to suicide, I'd like you to know you're talking bullshit.

quote:


If people believe that other things can cause self destructive behaviors, then perhaps they might want to address that issue.


Go on. Enlighten us.

Who voted you the arbitrator of what people should or shouldn't discuss?  You make no sense.


So much straw, so little time.

Keep up the fantastic thoughts.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:12:20 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

No need to be so belligerent, Alumbrado. Besides, I think gambling's immoral :-) .

It's quite obvious that guns don't say "Come on then, trigger me". It doesn't mean they're not a source of murderous inspiration to people who may not have killed anyone had they not had them in their possession though.


If it is quite obvious now, why wasn't it quite obvious a few posts ago? And thanks for not forgetting to trot out the derogatory stereotypes to cover up for your getting caught BSing. 
Brilliant...

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:13:53 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

No need to be so belligerent, Alumbrado. Besides, I think gambling's immoral :-) .

It's quite obvious that guns don't say "Come on then, trigger me". It doesn't mean they're not a source of murderous inspiration to people who may not have killed anyone had they not had them in their possession though.


If it is quite obvious now, why wasn't it quite obvious a few posts ago? And thanks for not forgetting to trot out the derogatory stereotypes to cover up for your getting caught BSing. 
Brilliant...


Huh... nah. I'm not playing this game with you. Enjoy yourself, Al.

_____________________________



(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:16:55 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah, he's having trouble getting it up again, clearly.  

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 11:27:43 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GhoSSt

Massad Ayoob's self defense priorities rank self defense thusly:

Mindset
Tactics
Skill
Gear (weapons)

I'm a dangerous person because I see the evil that humankind creates and prepare myself accordingly. My Mindset. I'm not 'paranoid' simply aware.

I train regularly in both weapons/hand to hand and mental scenarios. These provide my tactics and skills.

Weapons are tools and nothing more. Given my druthers, I'd prefer a rifle to a pistol, a pistol to a knife and a knife to a jagged, broken DVD to saw thru a perp neck. But I'll take what I can get. I carry a gun because carrying a cop around is too heavy.


I read one of Massad Ayoob's books and it was pretty good.
(In the gravest extreme?)
A Y.... news article mentioned that the shooter was an ex-student in sociology.
Could he have realised that with a "degree" in sociology he'd be doomed to being a waiter or have a "career" in Starbucks?
And why do these people want to take others with them?
Can't they just committ suicide and leave others alone?
We should be blaming mental illness not guns!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to GhoSSt)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:05:52 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Reference?


http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706

For what it's worth

Jeff

A link to a bald assertion is not a reference.

Last time this came up I looked long and hard for real numbers and ran into a serious problem. There is no national standard for what is reported to the FBI as what category of crime. In the worst case, Texas unsurprisingly, assault by displaying a legally carried firearm was not reported as a violent crime even though all other assaults with weapons were included. Including the reported incidents of that one offense took Texas from least violent crimes per capita to most violent crimes per capita. But that is still meaningless since each state can fiddle with what it reports.

Ultimately the best rule of thumb for violent crime rates is the percentage of males between 15 and 24 in a particular area. Couple that with the unemployment rate in that cohort and you've got a very good predictor of violent crime rate in that area.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:06:36 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		The use of statistics in this discussion is alarming ,on the one hand FBI reports are used to show handgun ownership reduces the rate of certain crime.The same poster than shows statistics from the UK showing rising crime rates and as an aside insinuates that "the home office" is fiddling with the numbers.After listening to some republicans regurgitate statistics from IRAQ i'mnot really all that impressed with chery picked stats that bear no causal relationship to the issue.Namely we now have more victims to bury ,more grieving familys and by the by the victims died of gun shot wounds not poor mental health

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:16:24 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well how about comparisons?
Massachusetts has strict gun laws making it almost impossible to carry a gun while all you have to do in neighboring New Hampshire is go to your local town hall or police station and fill out a form and after a criminal background check you get your "permit."
Mass. has twenty times the number of housebreaks as N.H. does with six times the population.
Something askew there.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:16:46 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Most rapes are by people known to the victim, not opportunist gangs.


Quite so. And in most cases, no resistance is given, so guns aren't relevant for that crime.

quote:

If we legalised firearms, couldn't rapists get them, too?


Firearms are illegal in Norway, except for shotguns.

For reference, we have 5 million citizens over an area the size of Montana, much of which is unsuited for habitation.

If I want a submachinegun, it will take me up to an hour to get hold of one, since I live rurally and haven't cultivated criminal contacts in my area. Probably about fifteen minutes to track down someone who will sell me one, and slightly over half an hour on the bus to pick it up (they don't do deliveries this far out into the countryside unless you're paying extra or buying in quantity). Add a few minutes to pick one I like. There, all set for some serious carnage. Someone with more average contacts, living in a more urban area, would need maybe fifteen minutes in total to get some serious firepower.

Consider, then, for a moment, the effort involved in getting an illegal firearm in the US.

Everyone that wants one, and can pay for one, has the one they want.

The exception is law-abiding citizens in gun control areas.

quote:

Also, I am not convinced having small arms will prevent a determined attack from a military force


Its value is ambiguous in my (uneducated) opinion.

quote:

but how many of us live in a country where that is a realistic possibility?


All of us, if we discount the possibility.

quote:

You really expect pogroms to occur in the USA?


One might argue that they have in modern times, just as they have in the past.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:23:00 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

And what would the handgun homicide rate be if there were no handguns?


Obviously, people would then be using phasers, lasguns or some other sci-fi weapon instead.

You are talking about sci-fi here, I assume, since this world has handguns?

Wishes... fishes... and a highschool shooting to discuss.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:28:29 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

And what would the handgun homicide rate be if there were no handguns?


Obviously, people would then be using phasers, lasguns or some other sci-fi weapon instead.

You are talking about sci-fi here, I assume, since this world has handguns?

Wishes... fishes... and a highschool shooting to discuss.

Health,
al-Aswad.


 I think that any discussion of 'if only there were no guns this wouldn't happen' is fruitless. There are guns, there will always be guns. There is no possible way to round up every gun out there. Every thug will turn theirs in? Hunters? Those that love target shooting? Those that collect them? Those that have one/some for self-protection? Impossible. Instead of musing on what if's, shouldn't everyone be working towards something viable? No I do not know what that would be, but I know that ridding the world of guns is not it.

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:29:37 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Maybe it's a necessary evil....Nature finds a way..I would think that the forces at work are fairly upset with the outcome of the recently underachieving AIDS virus and the bird flu really turned out to be a complete bust.

Ya got to thin the herd. Maybe a dose of mental instability when combined with access to some major weaponry is the "smallpox" for this millenium.

"It's such a shame"...However, for the majority of the people in this Country that is about as much sentiment or devastation that you should expect. Unless you know someone first hand that was killed or wounded it is just another day in America....

We shall never forget!!! I wonder if you asked ten people walking down the street, "In what year did 9-11 transpire? what kind of a response you would get?

Life goes on.

_____________________________



(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Gunman kills 5 on Illinois Campus - 2/15/2008 12:30:42 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The solution, then, is for all of us to walk around with weapons in our hands at all times?


Not necessarily. We're all waiting for the other alternative.

Seriously, though, the question is who has them, and what the consequences of that are.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 80
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