Grief

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

Grief

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Grief

Page: [1] 2 3 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Grief - 2/20/2008 7:46:46 AM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

I'm not sure why, but there seems to be a segment of the population that believes grief should be dealt with alone, or with a therapist, or a few select members of one's families and friends. But that it should be dealt with and gone before one seeks a new relationship.

But it seems to me there are some kinds of grief that simply cannot be addressed in that way: the loss of a loved one or the dashed hopes of an abusive relationship.

Seems to me grief arising from these kinds of situations requires the love of another to truly heal, for certainly the helplessness one feels when confronted with such situations is humbling and potentially destructive to one's self-confidence.

I believe only the love of another can restore that sense of self-worth and self-confidence that is required to properly address the grief one feels.

What are your views on grief and its resolution?

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 2/20/2008 7:48:34 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 7:50:31 AM

Reform

Posts: 151
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline

I think we all grieve in different ways, and that's ok. We can't force our way of dealing with things onto someone else just because it works for us.

Persnonally, I get a little sad and move on. A bit later it will really hit me, and I cry my eyes out, and then I'm done. It's not that I don't grieve immediately after the fact, it just takes a while for my mind to really wrap itself around the situtaion.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 2

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 7:57:43 AM

Kirren

Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline

I am dealing with grief at the moment, in My 12 year old daughter. Her father is a meth addict and was taking her and her brother to the drug dealers house with him to make purchases...he and I are divorced and had true joint custody, so I wasnt aware of this until a few months ago...

She is so unhappy with her father, and misses the way he used to be before the drugs that she refuses to speak to him...she refuses to spend any time with him, to the point that the court has stated that she can see him on her terms...and My son has to see him every other weekend because he is only 7.

The story is alot more detailed than that, but the long and short of it is, she is sad, and misses him, considers herself to not have him as a father any more, she says he's just some guy she knows...the pain she feels is very real....and valid in what she has been thru...but she is dealing with the pain via anger. Ive tried loving her thru it, but to be honest, I feel like she has a right to the anger, and it is valid to be mad at some one who has treated her the way he has. But I do hold her and love her when she is upset about it.

When My popsi died when I was little, I got angry as well, I blamed God, and the church for telling Me if I prayed he would get better. I didnt want to hear that lame ass excuse "well he did get better, he doesnt hurt any more." You cant tell a kid that grew up in an alchoholic and mentally abusive home that the one good thing in their life is gone, but its okay, because hes gone...It doesnt mesh well. It took Me years to come to terms with the fact that it was indeed better that he was gone, and noone loved Me thru that.

The point of that is, it took Me years with no love, and I dont think shell ever make that move, with the love that I offer her. So, each person has a different way of dealing...its got to do with so many factors...So many different influences of what happened and how...what that person felt and why....

Grief is such a complicated emotion...it carries with it self blame, blame of others, anger, frustration, fear, lack of self confidence, lack of self worth....and yes love can fix those things, IF the person experiencing the grief allows it to.

But that may not work for EVERY single person. Some people, like My daughter, need to get mad to heal...and no amount of love will change that...

_____________________________

Everything has been said before
There's nothing left to say anymore
When it's all the same
You can ask for it by name

Did I fail to mention...I am a BITCH?

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 3

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 8:06:36 AM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirren

But that may not work for EVERY single person. Some people, like My daughter, need to get mad to heal...and no amount of love will change that...

Thank you, Kirren. I think I really needed to hear this.

Anger is not my way. I've always seen it as a destructive emotion, the result of not being able to understand why someone behaves as they do, or the inability to accept their need to behave as they do.

But as you say, people deal with grief in a variety of ways. If anger works for them ...

(in reply to Kirren)

Post #: 4

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 8:11:35 AM

sub4hire

Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

We all deal with grief in different ways. Me, if it is a loss of a loved one...I think to myself so long for now. See you soon. Now whether I am right or wrong does not matter either way. It gets me through the day...I can still cope. When I'm dead it won't matter either.

Anyway Elizabth Kubler Ross put it best.

Five Stages Of Grief

Denial and Isolation.
At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place, and may withdraw from our usual social contacts. This stage may last a few moments, or longer.
Anger.
The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she's dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.
Bargaining.
Now the grieving person may make bargains with God, asking, "If I do this, will you take away the loss?"
Depression.
The person feels numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath.
Acceptance.
This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. The person simply accepts the reality of the loss.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 5

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 8:15:52 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

I believe only the love of another can restore that sense of self-worth and self-confidence that is required to properly address the grief one feels.

That is very big contradictory statement.

Self confidence and worth are not reliant on another person. So in order to have them the very definition would not need another to give it to us even if only in repair mode.

People grieve in different ways and get over their grief in different time tables. There is a big difference between grieving and not ready for another relationship and being in a new relationship and still have strong feelings and emotions for the past. It really is two different things entirely.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 6

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 8:25:20 AM

Reform

Posts: 151
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

We all deal with grief in different ways. Me, if it is a loss of a loved one...I think to myself so long for now. See you soon. Now whether I am right or wrong does not matter either way. It gets me through the day...I can still cope. When I'm dead it won't matter either.

Anyway Elizabth Kubler Ross put it best.

Five Stages Of Grief

Denial and Isolation.
At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place, and may withdraw from our usual social contacts. This stage may last a few moments, or longer.

Anger.
The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she's dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.

Bargaining.
Now the grieving person may make bargains with God, asking, "If I do this, will you take away the loss?"

Depression.
The person feels numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath.

Acceptance.
This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. The person simply accepts the reality of the loss.

Some of us never go through those five steps. While they are handy to know about, there is no rule for grieving, imo.

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 7

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 8:36:13 AM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

I believe only the love of another can restore that sense of self-worth and self-confidence that is required to properly address the grief one feels.

That is very big contradictory statement.

Self confidence and worth are not reliant on another person. So in order to have them the very definition would not need another to give it to us even if only in repair mode.

I think there are many ways of developing self-confidence and self-worth, including our interactions with others.

The inability to save a loved one is indeed injurious to one's self-confidence. As is the inevitable loneliness that follows, worsened as the loneliness is prolonged.

The helplessness one feels in an abusive relationship can be injurious to self-confidence and self-worth, again worsened the longer nothing better can be found to replace it.

quote:

People grieve in different ways and get over their grief in different time tables. There is a big difference between grieving and not ready for another relationship and being in a new relationship and still have strong feelings and emotions for the past. It really is two different things entirely.

You make it sound like a person falls asleep feeling one way and waking up feeling the other way.

That has not been my experience.

It is not as if a person is not ready for a relationship until the day they find themselves in a new one. They can be ready for a relationship, indeed in need of a relationship long before a new one starts.

And it is that period of time and the loneliness that arises from it that can aggravate the injury rather than heal it.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 8

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 8:42:46 AM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

Anyway Elizabth Kubler Ross put it best.

Five Stages Of Grief

Denial and Isolation.
At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place, and may withdraw from our usual social contacts. This stage may last a few moments, or longer.

Anger.
The grieving person may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she's dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. He may be angry with himself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.

Bargaining.
Now the grieving person may make bargains with God, asking, "If I do this, will you take away the loss?"

Depression.
The person feels numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath.

Acceptance.
This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. The person simply accepts the reality of the loss.

I don't know. I never got angry with my wife for her cancer, and I certainly was never angry with my son.

As for bargaining, one would have to believe there is a deity capable of such things.

To be honest, I think the solution to overcoming grief is to feel needed again. I would not have overcome the grief I've had were it not for the needs of others (like my pets) constantly goading me to do something other than wait for death.

(in reply to sub4hire)

Post #: 9

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:10:17 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Sorry, that's just wrong. That's using someone else to help you heal without telling them in advance and giving them the opportunity to know what they're risking. Or do you really say "BTW my wife died and I just want you for a rebound relationship short term since the odds are that the person I like now isn't the same kind of person I'll be compatible with once I can stand on my own feet again and stop using you for a crutch?". Now, if you're honest about it and they are willing to risk it, fine. But I bet anything you aren't honest about it.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 10

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:14:15 AM

sweetwenchie

Posts: 1993
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

i work in a business where we deal with people in grief daily. Everyone handles it in the best way they know how.

Laughter, anger, tears... whatever helps them get through the worst of the pain until they are not just coping, they are actually living again.

_____________________________

"To make oneself an object, to make oneself passive, is a very different thing from being a passive object." - De Beauvoir

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 11

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:18:24 AM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Sorry, that's just wrong. That's using someone else to help you heal without telling them in advance and giving them the opportunity to know what they're risking. Or do you really say "BTW my wife died and I just want you for a rebound relationship short term since the odds are that the person I like now isn't the same kind of person I'll be compatible with once I can stand on my own feet again and stop using you for a crutch?". Now, if you're honest about it and they are willing to risk it, fine. But I bet anything you aren't honest about it.

Wow, Celeste, that's one hell of a projection.

At what point in time (days, months, years) do you see a person whose lost a spouse being able to seek out a relationship without the relationship being viewed as a rebound or a crutch?

Must he forget the one lost? Never mention her? Feel nothing for her?

Is there ever a time where the loss does not produce some degree of grief? I lost my father 40 years ago and I still grieve the loss.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 12

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:20:45 AM

Loveisallyouneed

Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetwenchie

until they are not just coping, they are actually living again.

Would you be kind enough to provide some indicators you use to tell the difference between the two?

Seems there are many who have some gut feeling for when it is too soon and when it is right, but are unable to articulate it into anything concrete.

(in reply to sweetwenchie)

Post #: 13

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:25:50 AM

sweetwenchie

Posts: 1993
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

i would think that is because some things are so intangible as to make an apt description.

Personally i would say indicators would include no longer guilty for laughing, or enjoying something... whether it be another person, something they saw. Perhaps when they can look back and smile instead of cry. When they can see a flower (or what have you) that they know the person they lost would enjoy, and do not break down.

By living again, i simply meant not just trying to get through each day, but to actually enjoy each day as it comes, and find joy in that life. To be able to feel comfort when remembering what was lost, and how rich that person made their lives while they were there.

Again, for me, i simply do not have the vocabulary to articulate a true description of healing from grief. Not to mention it varies so drastically from person to person. :)

_____________________________

"To make oneself an object, to make oneself passive, is a very different thing from being a passive object." - De Beauvoir

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 14

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:30:01 AM

carlie310

Posts: 256
Joined: 9/23/2007
Status: offline

The problem I have with the Kubler-Ross stages paradigm is that one could get the impression that you go through each stage and you're done, like going up a flight of stairs. Not true. A better analogy (disclaimers about this may only be me, your mileage may vary, etc) would be a spiral staircase. You pass the same places again and again, but from a different perspective, in a new way.

My mother died in 1991. I have been through the five stages in regards to her death over and over--in the initial grief, as I prepared for my wedding, when I was a new mother myself, and again now, as I'm mid-divorce. I imagine that there will always be moments when my reaction to something is wanting to call her and share--and then realizing I can't. Same stage--denial, but a slightly different perspective.

In some ways, all relationships are recovering from losses we've had before. Of course people should try to be honest about where they are, but we're all pretty limited by our own self-awareness.

_____________________________

I may not have much real life experience, but I have lots of experience in real life.

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)

Post #: 15

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:30:19 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

A person can wallow in grief until it becomes a life source. That is never a good choice.

Jeff

(in reply to sweetwenchie)

Post #: 16

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:32:13 AM

sweetwenchie

Posts: 1993
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

agreed. i have run across some people like that in my job. i feel a great deal of pity, as they no longer see any other way of being or living.

_____________________________

"To make oneself an object, to make oneself passive, is a very different thing from being a passive object." - De Beauvoir

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 17

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:33:33 AM

SubbieOnWheels

Posts: 590
Joined: 12/14/2007
Status: offline

When my dad died, my brother was angry with our mom because she wasn't prostrate with grief, didn't dissolve into tears every time she heard or saw something that reminded her of her husband of 55 years. To my brother that proved she didn't really love Dad. Of course, my brother wasn't there six weeks later when Mother broke down several times during my two-week visit with her.

I have been told there are seven steps to grief. Most were the same as the ones listed above, although they don't always follow a certain order and can sometimes be repeated. (BTW, weren't you angry at the disease that took your wife?) However, the final step is THRIVING, when you take what you've learned as you grew through the process and use it to help others. We all grieve differently, and we all get through it differently.

One can grieve over many different kinds of losses. My most recent grief has been the loss of my visual acuity and the loss of a limb.

_____________________________

Bethical
Beat me, strike me, take away my reindeer! I'll never tell! -- Walt Kelly, Pogo Possum
I yam what I yam - Popeye

http://www.myspace.com/bethical_wheels

(in reply to sweetwenchie)

Post #: 18

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:35:09 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

Sooner or later, everyone dies. If you can't find a way to get past it an live, on your own and with yourself, you are wasting whatever time you have left.

Jeff

(in reply to sweetwenchie)

Post #: 19

RE: Grief - 2/20/2008 9:36:48 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

And yet given all that I see you are under consideration. It seems you are not going to just lie down..:)

Jeff

(in reply to SubbieOnWheels)

Post #: 20

Page: [1] 2 3 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Grief

Page: [1] 2 3 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094