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ORIGINAL: WhiteKnuckleRide

I've had the other side to this , in that, in our (new) relationship, I'm learning to find out what she likes, so, naturally, I've asked her. (Something I'd do in any relationship, not just this one.)

The answer I get is "...I don't want to top from the bottom. Do what you want to do.".

She doesn't see it as communication, just this big thing that she, as sub, can't do. It annoys the f*** outta me.

(She's not done it for a while. Last time she said it, I sat down to watch the footie!!!)  :)

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ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

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ORIGINAL: camille65
align]People trying to manipulate a particular reaction by performing (or not performing) in a manner guarenteed to do just that. I see it in a lot of threads in varying degrees. I consider it a blatent form of deliberate miscommunication, holding back knowledge or feelings by the 's' in order to steer things the way they want often covered by the idea of 'well I wanted to prevent the D from knowing how I feel because it may upset them'. Some will probably say that I am completely wrong which is okay, but I do see that as TFB because they are conciously acting in a way to make things go in a certain direction instead of simply being honest or even more simply, trusting that the dominant can handle things.

 


I don't think you're wrong in that. The manipulation to control the relationship or aspects of it or situations is TFTB. I don't dispute it's existance at all, I've just seen it both overused and misused all too often when what is being called TFTB isn't.

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


But you would agree that it can be done.  It is also a phrase that could be heard when the submissive and the dominant are at loggerheads...she feels that she requires more information to do what he has asked her to do, he feels that she does not need the information...that what he has asked her to do is not outside of her limits or boundaries...that he has a specific purpose in mind for having her do this task and that this is one time he does not need to explain his reasoning or motivations behind it.  Please don't tell me that submissives won't get contrary and sometimes act this way and please don't tell me that dominants won't get contrary and act this way.  Would the phrase be appropriate?  From his point of view at the time, it may well be.  From her point of view at the time, it is possible that it would not be.

Please don't misunderstand me.  I would agree that, in general, it is a term that is overused.  But I have also seen those submissives who use it as a club, either subtle or overt,  in order to be contrary or to steer the dynamic on occasion, in a manner somewhat different than the example given here of manipulation.

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ORIGINAL: adoracat


*nods*  i have a VERY hard time with saying "i want/need this".  Daddy knows this, i've always been honest about it.

his solution to the problem was to tease and torment me till i begged for release, then he wouldnt till i told him what i wanted, exactly what i wanted. 

kitten, laughing

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ORIGINAL: beargonewild

It's my thoughts that a common situation is some doms feel that their word is enough for the sub to follow/obey and if the sub questions and/or asks for clarity, the dom often assumes the sub is TFTB. The key to all this is for the Dom to listen and hear exactly what the submissive is saying. In the same token, we subs have to hear and listen to what our Dom is saying. Clear and consise communication will avoid most jumping to wrong conclusions, making assumtions and miscommunication. In some cases we subs have a bad habit of not fully answering our dom when they do ask what we want need and desire. We have this habit of saying: "I don't know" or " What ever pleases you, Master" or "It doesn't matter to me, Sir": I am guilty of doing all three myself.  

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ORIGINAL: Justme696


MM not good if questions are already seen as TFTB.  I only can see it as TFTB as the sub does question al actions. Other wise my girl is free to ask with out beeing worried about this...doesn't mean I always answer at that moment.
I have sometimes the feeling TFTB is used as an excuse when a Dom(me) looses control. 

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ORIGINAL: Justme696

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ORIGINAL: beargonewild

It's my thoughts that a common situation is some doms feel that their word is enough for the sub to follow/obey and if the sub questions and/or asks for clarity, the dom often assumes the sub is TFTB. The key to all this is for the Dom to listen and hear exactly what the submissive is saying. In the same token, we subs have to hear and listen to what our Dom is saying. Clear and consise communication will avoid most jumping to wrong conclusions, making assumtions and miscommunication. In some cases we subs have a bad habit of not fully answering our dom when they do ask what we want need and desire. We have this habit of saying: "I don't know" or " What ever pleases you, Master" or "It doesn't matter to me, Sir": I am guilty of doing all three myself.  

MM not good if questions are already seen as TFTB.  I only can see it as TFTB as the sub does question al actions. Other wise my girl is free to ask with out beeing worried about this...doesn't mean I always answer at that moment.
I have sometimes the feeling TFTB is used as an excuse when a Dom(me) looses control. 

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ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

So true, Bear, so true. Now why is it so hard to communicate? Why is it so difficult to openly, fully voice our wants and needs to our partner? Is fear part of the problem? Conditioning from previous relationships? Experiences in life?

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ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

So true, Bear, so true. Now why is it so hard to communicate? Why is it so difficult to openly, fully voice our wants and needs to our partner? Is fear part of the problem? Conditioning from previous relationships? Experiences in life?

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ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

So true, Bear, so true. Now why is it so hard to communicate? Why is it so difficult to openly, fully voice our wants and needs to our partner? Is fear part of the problem? Conditioning from previous relationships? Experiences in life?

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ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

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ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


But you would agree that it can be done.  It is also a phrase that could be heard when the submissive and the dominant are at loggerheads...she feels that she requires more information to do what he has asked her to do, he feels that she does not need the information...that what he has asked her to do is not outside of her limits or boundaries...that he has a specific purpose in mind for having her do this task and that this is one time he does not need to explain his reasoning or motivations behind it.  Please don't tell me that submissives won't get contrary and sometimes act this way and please don't tell me that dominants won't get contrary and act this way.  Would the phrase be appropriate?  From his point of view at the time, it may well be.  From her point of view at the time, it is possible that it would not be.

Please don't misunderstand me.  I would agree that, in general, it is a term that is overused.  But I have also seen those submissives who use it as a club, either subtle or overt,  in order to be contrary or to steer the dynamic on occasion, in a manner somewhat different than the example given here of manipulation.

Oh yes, it exists and is done definitely. I've stated that more than once and I have seen it a time or three. My objective here was pointing out and getting feedback and maybe in that, educating, through the discussion, on the misuse and overuse of it.

I won't tell you submissives (or dominants) won't get contrary in situations or just because. It happens and what you describe with that comes across more as miscommunication and/or misunderstanding rather than topping from the bottom to me really. Just my take on it.

My definition of topping from the bottom bases it on intent. If the intention is manipulation and control of the dominant or relationship (and yes it is generalization as it would take a book to list various ways of it so bear with me please) then it's topping from the bottom; but if the intention or reason is basic need for clarification, straight communication of something (ie necessary info), discussion and resolution of issues, etc., then I don't see it as topping from the bottom at all. I see it as communication and working on the relationship. Also the tone and attitude can make it either communication or topping from the bottom, which goes with intent.

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ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

I've always seen topping from the bottom as deliberately manipulating the dom for the sub to get what they want and to have the control in the relationship dynamic

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I'm not talking about the sub asking the dom for what they want openly and straight out either. I mean deliberate manipulation.

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What I've seen over and over is that topping from the bottom is a vastly overused and misused term both in and out of relationships. It's used all too often as a bad way to control a sub or slave. As generic example: Dom doesn't want to hear it? The sub's topping from the bottom. Dom doesn't want to answer questions? Again, that's the sub topping from the bottom. And then added to that, they want to punish the sub for it.