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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/27/2008 5:45:16 PM

need2bused6

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Although I used the term "Topping from the Bottom" in another post I don't believe it exists unless you have a weak Dom. I had mentioned the red=stop, yellow=close, green=more safe word system. That is not topping by the bottom any more than hard limits or a safe word. It doesn’t tell the Dom what to do but how close he is to your limits. As a sub I have never ask a Dom to do anything with one exception. As a reward he would ask me if I wanted anything done. I would mention any illness or injury so he would know not to do further damage. I cannot dream of telling a true Dom what he could do to me that session. My last Dom? did one night stop sex and say "I give up you win I can't keep up with you sexually”. I didn't know it was a contest. I did what he wanted when he wanted it done. He liked long sessions, as do I, but he never reached a point I needed to ignore his wishes and use the safe word to stop everything. In fact red was rarely used. I think a sub could subtly make the Dom do as they wished but to me that show’s the sub’s view of their place and state of mind. This is not good by my standards to even consider doing it.

'

'

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/27/2008 6:15:28 PM

BoiJen

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What is it with people thinking Dom and top are the same word?

Anyways...the other questions is based on one thing...

the bottom is the one who would initiate TFTB...not the top....so why do people think it has to do with the Top being "weak"?

As a presenter I'm with LA...let's make it a GOOD thing.

(in reply to need2bused6)

Post #: 62

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/27/2008 8:09:15 PM

Leatherist

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Right, it has nothing to do with the Dom not allowing it.

If a dog bites my ass, it's because the dog wanted to. Sure, I can either train it not to, or get rid of it. Or let it keep biting my ass.

But if it has that habit, it's going to have that habit-until I make one of those choices.

Or the dog can refuse to comply, and run away.

Which is the choice it makes,if it refuses to change.

So it's a lot more about the dog.

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Post #: 63

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 6:43:48 AM

SinergyNstrumpet

Posts: 305
Joined: 2/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Right, it has nothing to do with the Dom not allowing it.

If a dog bites my ass, it's because the dog wanted to. Sure, I can either train it not to, or get rid of it. Or let it keep biting my ass.

But if it has that habit, it's going to have that habit-until I make one of those choices.

Or the dog can refuse to comply, and run away.

Which is the choice it makes,if it refuses to change.

So it's a lot more about the dog.

Well if it were only so simple. Actually in the dog world the alpha gets challenged quite often, and if the alpha gets beaten then there is a new alpha in town. You see, even dogs must maintain their dominance or lose it.

Have you ever seen the show "The Dog Whisperer"? If you have. then you indeed should know that it is 99.9% the human in the relationship that is screwing up and not being dominant enough... and a dog will do what a dog will do. Since you chose the dog analogy I thought we should follow it to the end.

You see, human beings are far more complex than dogs. The way we interact is not so simple as 99% one person's fault. I understand your defensiveness as some people here would give total responsibility for a failure to one person and not the other. But you see, that is how it works in their mind in their opinion. Basically, we are all just human beings doing the best we can to get along. I find discussions on TFTB kinda amusing because basically to expect one person to always be submissive to another for every second without ever one iota manipulating to get what they want on some level just isn't reality in my mind. I have been a people watcher my entire life, people just do not work like that

(in reply to Leatherist)

Post #: 64

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 8:27:45 AM

Leatherist

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You maintain Dominance by not backing down. But if you want to live a certain way-it's not really about a power struggle,it's more about cooperation to see it happens.

If, as a Dominant who has an actual life plan that one is determined to carry out.......And one finds oneself at constant loggerheads with your partner in doing so-It really IS about mutual responsibility.

And may well mean that one has chosen that partner unwisely. Which is why I never base a relationship on kink.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 2/28/2008 8:39:50 AM >

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Post #: 65

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 8:43:22 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

...basically to expect one person to always be submissive to another for every second without ever one iota manipulating to get what they want on some level just isn't reality in my mind.

certainly this slave can't speak for the entirity of humanity, but it IS this slave's reality, and she doubts sincerely that she is the only one. using manipulation to "get what this slave wants" is not and has never been part of the relationship dynamic we have.

we utilize a much simpler approach. if this slave has an unfulfilled want, she asks Him, and is prepared to accept the consequences of not having what was wanted if He says no. it's not as complicated as the effort required to attempt manipulation, but it works for us.

(in reply to SinergyNstrumpet)

Post #: 66

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 8:59:39 AM

BoiJen

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I see very often that people put the load of being responsbile on the D-type or top...when in reality to tango there's got to be at least two people invloved.

So why is that more often than not if something goes wrong it's the D-type's fault? I mean hell I hear about "bad scenes" all the time...recently...

"Boijen, I had this terrible scene...it was SO bad...so-and-so is such a bad Dom..."
"you mean top"
"yeah that"
"how so"
"well boijen, I was in this great place they did x and it so threw me out of space..."
"did you discuss that with them at all? or try and negotiate a way to continue the scene?"
"well no...I didn't want to mess up so-and-so's grove"
"so instead of saying what you need in a productive way you're just going to talk shit about this person..."

I'm not saying 100% of the time it's the s-type's fault. I'm saying both sides fail and make mistakes...it happens.

And in the case of TFTB it's a choice the s-type makes...not the D-type...unless it's and educational choice. At which point the D-type has the choice to put up or shut up. Just like if an s-type gets told to do something they don't want to...and do it anyways...it's not abuse of power...it's a choice to comply and sacrifice your boundaries.

So back to the question I'm left with...when are the s-types gonna start taking responsibility/being held accountable for their choices?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 67

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 9:01:13 AM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

we utilize a much simpler approach. if this slave has an unfulfilled want, she asks Him, and is prepared to accept the consequences of not having what was wanted if He says no. it's not as complicated as the effort required to attempt manipulation, but it works for us.

Simple, open communication........sadly it seems to be a lost art in so many relationships and yet works so well when used.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 68

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 10:43:36 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

So why is that more often than not if something goes wrong it's the D-type's fault? I mean hell I hear about "bad scenes" all the time...recently...

Jen,
Because it IS the D-types fault. At least any D-types who are confident in who they are. Accepting full responsibility you accept any resulting consequence. Pragmatically it then becomes your fault. That extends from the practical, such as the binding not being proper to support the activity; to the perceptional, such as not knowing your partner well enough to recognize they are in mental/emotional distress. There is a similar range of cause, from not checking the binding, to not taking the time to know your partner.

It is, or should be, in the D-types control because control, during the act, is not in the control of the s-type. If it is, the s-type is misnamed, and sensations are being 'processed' not experienced.

Of course, this only applies to me and those who choose to be with me. I'll listen, chat, amplify, re-state, and demonstrate until whatever being discussed goes from 'communicating' to clear 'understanding' by all involved. Once I'm satisfied that condition exists the responsibility is mine. If I don't believe it does exist it won't happen, regardless of how the s-type pleads and tries to get me to believe he/she know what I mean. I have to know without question. Once I do - I am responsible. Taking that responsibility is not something I shy away from or concern myself with opinions in disagreement. It works for me it works for us, semantically and practically.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 69

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 10:48:11 AM

BoiJen

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It's all the D-type's fault. Really? How convient that the s-type suddenly has no responsibility at all. I guess that makes it easier to place blame when something goes wrong.

Casual play happens all the time. There's always a first scene. And in those instances D-types and tops can't be mind readers. It's as much the s-types responsibility in scenes and in relationships to communicate their needs. Again D-types aren't mind readers and body language is up for interpretation.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 70

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 10:50:51 AM

Leatherist

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I never bought the total responsibility thing either. It's arrogant to think you can totally know another human being. The way you stop topping from the bottom is to hold the person doing it accountable for thier actions. Not by passing the buck to the Dom.

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Post #: 71

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 10:56:42 AM

BoiJen

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I'll second that. There has to be accountability and responsibility for the individual choosing to act or behave a certain way and the consequences, intended and unintended for those choices and actions. After all...we're adults in adult relationships...the way of total responsibility is infant to parent becuase even children act and choose how they want to behave.

(in reply to Leatherist)

Post #: 72

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 10:58:06 AM

Leatherist

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But you are at least allowed to keep babies in cages until they are old enough to know better-even tho you have to wipe thier asses.

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Post #: 73

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 10:58:48 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

It's all the D-type's fault. Really? How convient that the s-type suddenly has no responsibility at all. I guess that makes it easier to place blame when something goes wrong.

Casual play happens all the time. There's always a first scene. And in those instances D-types and tops can't be mind readers. It's as much the s-types responsibility in scenes and in relationships to communicate their needs. Again D-types aren't mind readers and body language is up for interpretation.

Enjoy that interpretation.

The s-type has a tremendous responsibility - know thyself.

Most don't and that's a big reason why I don't 'play' with most. First scene or the nth scene, I rather pass on the unsure insecure and take on the responsibility for those confident in themselves and me. No mind reading required, not even any "interpretation" once your sure you are working from the same dictionary language. All that's necessary is something many don't want to invest - Time. Time and a bit of patience to let it pass; well worth it based on my experience. But still not dogma or a one-true-way rule.

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Post #: 74

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 11:07:08 AM

BoiJen

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You're right knowing yourself is important. However, even the people who know themselves better than anything sometimes forget to mention things that would be helpful. Or their emotions get the best of them and they don't communicate needs. It's not the other person's fault then...it's their's.

I mean come on...we all know some fool who's fantasy was to do x,y, and z, and the first chance they got to do it they didn't like it because the reality didn't match the fantasy. It's the not other person's fault then. S-types have more responsibility than just knowing themselves...that's just plain reality.

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 2/28/2008 11:08:04 AM >

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Post #: 75

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 11:26:49 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

I mean come on...we all know some fool who's fantasy was to do x,y, and z, and the first chance they got to do it they didn't like it because the reality didn't match the fantasy. It's the not other person's fault then. S-types have more responsibility than just knowing themselves...that's just plain reality.

Very much agree and have run across many that you describe on both sides of the flogger. It may be "reality" but where in the 'one-true-way' book is it stated that you shouldn't be required to take the time to get to know that about the person you are considering? That is also an s-type's responsibility. I didn't address it because I was speaking from my D-type perspective.

I'll say this, knowing yourself may not be the only responsibility requirement, but it is one of the most important. It can save you and any s-type or D-type wasting time with fool's fantasies.

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 76

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 11:44:05 AM

Leatherist

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One fools fantasy is another's reality.

Much the way that other's realities can be seen as foolish.

Perspectives are not uniform in nature.

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I'm not taking custom orders.

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Post #: 77

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 11:57:39 AM

Justme696

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quote:

the bottom is the one who would initiate TFTB...not the top....so why do people think it has to do with the Top being "weak"?

If some one wants to punch you..and you didn't innitiate it..but you allow it to happen..you are weak.

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Post #: 78

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 12:17:46 PM

BoiJen

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Umm...this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Hauling off and punching someone isn't about topping from the bottom. And the person being punched has a choice to fight back leav or take it...just because someone got punched doesn't mean they are weak.

I thought my world was black and white.

(in reply to Justme696)

Post #: 79

RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/28/2008 12:21:54 PM

Justme696

Posts: 3236
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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Umm...this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Hauling off and punching someone isn't about topping from the bottom. And the person being punched has a choice to fight back leav or take it...just because someone got punched doesn't mean they are weak.

I thought my world was black and white.

It is called example...and I answered your question ;)
You misread..if you LET IT HAPPEN....you are weak.
Beeing punched..is not beeing weak.

See you can read post as they come..or you can read. in them what you would like to see

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/28/2008 12:23:48 PM >

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