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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 2:31:20 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

Perhaps also the same theory applies to TFTB (to drag the thread back on-topic). If the D-type in a relationship is comfortable with the way things are going, then what the s-type does or says is fine with them, and TFTB is not going on. If the D-type is not comfortable, it is up to them to do something about it. Either way, it's none of anyone else's business.


agree a BDSm relation is not that different from other realtions.
If you accept it...don't complain..else do something about it.
And the naming convention don't have any influence on the actual problem.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:08:14 AM   
SassySarijane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

Perhaps also the same theory applies to TFTB (to drag the thread back on-topic). If the D-type in a relationship is comfortable with the way things are going, then what the s-type does or says is fine with them, and TFTB is not going on. If the D-type is not comfortable, it is up to them to do something about it. Either way, it's none of anyone else's business.


In the context of a relationship I've got to agree. If those in the relationship are happy and it works for them, it really isn't anyone else's business or judgement call on how they do things.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:10:48 AM   
SassySarijane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat




so is Daddy.  i dont call him evil bastard because he's cute, which he is.  *giggling*

kitten



*laughing* I love that type. Wonderfully sadistic with the sense of humor that so perfectly compliments it.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:19:57 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

What is it with people thinking Dom and top are the same word?

Anyways...the other questions is based on one thing...

the bottom is the one who would initiate TFTB...not the top....so why do people think it has to do with the Top being "weak"?

As a presenter I'm with LA...let's make it a GOOD thing.


Many, such as myself, use the phrase "topping from the bottom" in a lifestyle context, rather than a scene context.  In a lifestyle context, the phrase is a metaphorical description of the submissive attempting (or perhaps succeeding) to manipulate the dominant--in essence, to subvert the power exchange dynamic in a non-negotiated (and most likely dysfunctional) fashion.

As an expression of a dysfunctional power-exchange dynamic, I submit that a "weak"/ill-prepared dominant is very much a factor in the phenomenon.

Used in a scene context, your observations are very apt and your point is well taken.


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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:45:42 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

What is it with people thinking Dom and top are the same word?

Anyways...the other questions is based on one thing...

the bottom is the one who would initiate TFTB...not the top....so why do people think it has to do with the Top being "weak"?

As a presenter I'm with LA...let's make it a GOOD thing.


Many, such as myself, use the phrase "topping from the bottom" in a lifestyle context, rather than a scene context.  In a lifestyle context, the phrase is a metaphorical description of the submissive attempting (or perhaps succeeding) to manipulate the dominant--in essence, to subvert the power exchange dynamic in a non-negotiated (and most likely dysfunctional) fashion.

As an expression of a dysfunctional power-exchange dynamic, I submit that a "weak"/ill-prepared dominant is very much a factor in the phenomenon.

Used in a scene context, your observations are very apt and your point is well taken.



Agreed.  As I have noted on earlier posts, I do believe that "topping from the bottom" can and does exist.  I also believe that it can occur in even a good relationship because there are times when neither partner is being the perfect partner that they usually are.
sassi noted that in many cases, what is occurring is within the context of others' relationship and it may well be what works for that couple...the D-type knows he is being manipulated and is O.K. with it; not my cup of tea but not my relationship either.  As an example of things being viewed incorrectly from outside a relationship, I enjoy playful, teasing type interaction with a submissive on occasion but they have always taken the time to learn what is O.K. and what is not and quickly learned when "that" day was not a good day for it to be occurring.  I am quite sure that...by some people's definition...

I was engaging in something in which the submissive was being "disrespectful" or "goofing about too much" or, to some, topping from the bottom.  I saw none of this...I knew what was going on, the play was fun and occasionally boisterous but never disrespectful and never emotionally/mentally hurtful or undermining of the dynamic.

That deliberate undermining of the dynamic...whether subtly or overtly...is when, as stated, IMHO that TFTB of a bad nature is occurring.  I also believe that the s-type takes it on her own self for attempting it and then, when confronted with the reality of it, for denying that it is indeed what she is doing.  If the D-type allows himself to be manipulated and then later finds himself resentful of it, it is on him for allowing himself to be manipulated.  I also believe that the biggest problem comes in when the submissive refuses to recognize that it is what she is doing and the D-type cannot provide clear evidence or statements about how it is occurring and how what she is doing fits the "bad" TFTB behavior.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:53:50 AM   
SubbieOnWheels


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

That deliberate undermining of the dynamic...whether subtly or overtly...is when, as stated, IMHO that TFTB of a bad nature is occurring.  I also believe that the s-type takes it on her own self for attempting it and then, when confronted with the reality of it, for denying that it is indeed what she is doing.  If the D-type allows himself to be manipulated and then later finds himself resentful of it, it is on him for allowing himself to be manipulated.  I also believe that the biggest problem comes in when the submissive refuses to recognize that it is what she is doing and the D-type cannot provide clear evidence or statements about how it is occurring and how what she is doing fits the "bad" TFTB behavior.



What CD said has hit the nail on the head, IMO.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 8:01:57 AM   
SassySarijane


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Status: offline 		I agree SubbieOnWheels, and he put it well too. Adds more understanding to what's being conveyed.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 8:54:50 AM   
Justme696


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Status: offline 		I wonder why it is so often discussed? Is it a big problem? And what to do about it?
Does it hurt people if it happens? Does it ruin the relation?
Although we talk a lott about..I can't remember posts that talked about escalation on this point.
(perhaps I just didn't read it)
So do we keep a "myth" alive?
( I used myth...I know it happens,,,,but is sounded nice )



< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/29/2008 8:57:24 AM >

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 8:59:33 AM   
Leatherist


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Status: offline 		All you can do is keep calling pretty much anyone on manipulative behavior. Record it and play it back if need be-makes denial sort of difficult. If nothing changes after various measures-and you really resent it-consider a change to a partner who suits your desires better.

It's not rocket science folks.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 9:27:52 AM   
SubbieOnWheels


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

I wonder why it is so often discussed? Is it a big problem? And what to do about it?
Does it hurt people if it happens? Does it ruin the relation?
Although we talk a lott about..I can't remember posts that talked about escalation on this point.
(perhaps I just didn't read it)
So do we keep a "myth" alive?
( I used myth...I know it happens,,,,but is sounded nice )




I've seen the term on other threads, but never the in-depth discussion we've have here.

My theory as to why it is mentioned so often is fear:

D-types fear that their s-type is going to do it and thus undermine the D-type's authority, or that it will become public knowledge and make the D-type look foolish.

S-types fear that they may be doing it unknowingly and either pissing off their D-type or making the D-type feel less Domly. Or they fear that the D-type is letting them TFTB, thus the D-type is not as Domly as the s-type wants.

Stuff like that makes my head hurt thinking about it. I figure if I have a good relationship with my D-type, we will communicate about things. He will not fear my views, and I will not fear for his position in our dynamic.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 9:52:39 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

I wonder why it is so often discussed? Is it a big problem? And what to do about it?
Does it hurt people if it happens? Does it ruin the relation?
Although we talk a lott about..I can't remember posts that talked about escalation on this point.
(perhaps I just didn't read it)
So do we keep a "myth" alive?
( I used myth...I know it happens,,,,but is sounded nice )


Honestly? I find it more of a myth than a reality.  Yes it does happen. Yes it can be bad but not always - but when it is used negatively by people making accusations it's because certain people enjoy having power and trying to gain authority of others relationships and telling them what their relationship is - including the infamous quote 'Sounds like topping from the bottom '.  It is and has the effect of diminishing and degrading anothers relationship so as to gain their own hold.
 
And it's tiresome to see but it happens.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 10:05:03 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		thank you (all) for the views in the last vieuw posts as an answer to my remark.....interesting...
they are similar to mine on this subject (the myth part especially)


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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 11:13:16 AM   
ClassAct2006


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Status: offline 		The only time it's been applied to me by someone (wrongly) was when I rejecetd him (so of course anyone prepared to reject him mustn't really be submissive, must she?)

I do like to communicate however particularly early on which is not the same thing. It's good to give a view and then I genuinely don't mind if it's followed or not. In fact it's erotic when the dominant say no. The last thing I want is my own way all the time.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 4:25:43 PM   
SassySarijane


Posts: 1558
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From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline 		Another good example of how it's misused. Sounds more like he had sour grapes than you were TFTB.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 6:45:36 PM   
AcademyForSlaves


Posts: 712
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Status: offline 		You wrote that a submissive person is "equal" to the Domme/Dom until the sub wants and chooses to submit.

There are people who believe that to be sub is to be sub. Period. That they are never "equal". To believe you are equal to a higher authority seems to contradict with being an opposite to them. One is up, the other is down. One is dominant, the other is submissive. One is on top, the other is the bottom. One calls the shots, the other obeys. Etc.

Now that doesn't apply to being an equal human being on the planet who deserves human rights, respect, etc. Of course we are all equal in that regard. But we are talking here about a BDSM lifestyle.

A real sub does not pick and choose when they can be sub. They just ARE.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 6:53:16 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves
A real sub does not pick and choose when they can be sub. They just ARE.


There are more than a handful of submissives and slaves here who will tell you they submit only to their owner, dominant, Master.  This is some of the deepest submission you could imagine, too.  They might not pick and choose what they submit to with their owners, but they certainly pick and choose to whom they submit.  I'm certainly not going to submit to another human being just because he/she has a dominant personality.  I submit only to my owner.  Were I to submit to anyone else, I would be rejecting his training of me and disobeying him.

Unless of course this is what you meant?

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 6:55:39 PM   
YourhandMyAss


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Status: offline 		bear hehe no, it's a signature I put up a whilea go after a few troll types came onto collarme telling evry one how they should be doing bdsm and kinks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

~Yourhand: Please do not assume I was speaking because I thought I am qualified! Like I said in the above paragraph, in the gay community to which I am a part of, top=dom, sub=bottom. That is to which my question is geared to.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:16:31 PM   
SassySarijane


Posts: 1558
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcademyForSlaves

You wrote that a submissive person is "equal" to the Domme/Dom until the sub wants and chooses to submit.


A real sub does not pick and choose when they can be sub. They just ARE.


A submissive is a human being just as a dom is. I'm equal to other human beings unless and until I make the choice to submit to one (or more). I don't submit to someone, nor do I feel I am lesser than someone, simply because they identify as dominant and I identify as submissive.

quote:

  ownedgirlie: There are more than a handful of submissives and slaves here who will tell you they submit only to their owner, dominant, Master.  This is some of the deepest submission you could imagine, too.  They might not pick and choose what they submit to with their owners, but they certainly pick and choose to whom they submit.  I'm certainly not going to submit to another human being just because he/she has a dominant personality. 


Beautiful ownedgirlie, thank you. You said it much more eloquently than I could.

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:17:20 PM   
MsKittyBlack


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From MsK's boi...boijen

< Message edited by MsKittyBlack -- 2/29/2008 7:18:38 PM >

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RE: Topping from the Bottom Misused and Overused? - 2/29/2008 7:27:20 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane
Beautiful ownedgirlie, thank you. You said it much more eloquently than I could.


Thank you for the kind words, SassySarijane :)

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