BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger?

BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (Full Version)

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BoiJen -> BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:12:14 AM)
How many times have we gone to a BDSM 101 andheard about how important communication and negotiation are? How often does anyone actually talk about HOW to do those things? So lets do the actually talk...we all know it's important...but how do you actually communicate your needs and negotiate the understanding of your boundaires? Especially given that D/s relationships are about someone having more control than the other.. How do D-types balance their D-typedness with meeting and mainting the needs of the s-type? How do s-types maintian their own boundaries with out manipulationg the situation? Let's really talk about HOW to communicate and what communication looks like

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:16:59 AM)
I usually talk about my vanilla goals and expectations first. How I live, where I want to go with my life.When talking to another, I try to figure out what thier focus and abilities are-the weaknesses and strengths. The kink stuff is always secondary to that, but I'm also pretty clear about it. A lot of communication is based on having clear and reasonable priorities set. We all have to make at least a few compromises-it comes down to being happy with them, rather than resenting them.

BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:20:16 AM)
I'm gonna disagree. Compromise isneeded in a romantic relationship...not in a power dynamic. Compromise is about not getting what you want...it's about giving things up so somebody else is happier with the siuation. Compromise is about equality...and while I think equality is good and all...D/s is about balance not equality. Negotiation is working within eachother's boundaries to get the most of what you want...it's about the win/win...and about all parties coming out of the situation happier.

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:23:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I'm gonna disagree. Compromise isneeded in a romantic relationship...not in a power dynamic. Compromise is about not getting what you want...it's about giving things up so somebody else is happier with the siuation. Compromise is about equality...and while I think equality is good and all...D/s is about balance not equality. Negotiation is working within eachother's boundaries to get the most of what you want...it's about the win/win...and about all parties coming out of the situation happier. Any negotiation is going to involve someone not getting exactly what they want. No compromise means that I could dictate terms, and get everything, or nothing.

BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:26:19 AM)
I'm not talking about dictating terms...and who says you can't get everything you want? Who made that rule up? Working within eachother's boundaries down't mean you're dictating terms and it doesn't mean that you can't get everything you want...it means you have to work on making those things comfortable and acceptable. Compromise is about immediately saying okay I can't get everything I want so....how much of it can I get?...negotiation is going into it with here's what I want...let's make it work

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:29:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I'm not talking about dictating terms...and who says you can't get everything you want? Who made that rule up? Working within eachother's boundaries down't mean you're dictating terms and it doesn't mean that you can't get everything you want...it means you have to work on making those things comfortable and acceptable. Compromise is about immediately saying okay I can't get everything I want so....how much of it can I get?...negotiation is going into it with here's what I want...let's make it work And what if what the Owner wants doesn't match the needs of the slave? And the owner just says "Not interested, that won't work for me." ?

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:31:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I'm gonna disagree. Compromise isneeded in a romantic relationship...not in a power dynamic. Compromise is about not getting what you want...it's about giving things up so somebody else is happier with the siuation. Compromise is about equality...and while I think equality is good and all...D/s is about balance not equality. Negotiation is working within eachother's boundaries to get the most of what you want...it's about the win/win...and about all parties coming out of the situation happier. I agree and disagree at the same time. He compromised a lot in the beginning so he could have everything he wants now. If he demanded from me on day 1 that I submit to him as I do today, he would have either ruined me or he'd have seen me running for the hills. Such development takes time, and in that time he compromised many of his preferences so he wouldn't overwhelm me. This wasn't about equality - there was never equality in our relationship. It was about him laying out boundaries that were emotionally safe for me, and adjusting them as we moved forward. As for communication, I have always been required to tell him exactly what I am thinking and feeling, even if I think he won't like it. He can't correct what he doesn't know about. And he can't know how I'm affected by everything he does - big or small - if I don't communicate it. His greatest tool was listening - Listening and understanding. People forget that part of the communication process.

BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:34:21 AM)
I had someone tell me recently that we're all crazy. It's just about finding the right kind of crazy to match your own kind of crazy. And seriously...we should be negotiating the needs and wants and the compatability long before we're refering to eachother as Owner and owned now shouldn't we? I mean healthy people don't go head long into something without making sure they're going into it with the right person...who should communication and negotiation only happen when the relationship is already established...I mean doesn't make sense to do those TO establish the relationship?

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:34:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen Compromise is about immediately saying okay I can't get everything I want so....how much of it can I get?...negotiation is going into it with here's what I want...let's make it work Compromise is him putting on hold all the things he wants, knowing they will come in time. Negotiation is something he has never engaged in with me, and never will. Negotiation, in my opinion, is more about equality than compromise.

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:34:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I'm gonna disagree. Compromise isneeded in a romantic relationship...not in a power dynamic. Compromise is about not getting what you want...it's about giving things up so somebody else is happier with the siuation. Compromise is about equality...and while I think equality is good and all...D/s is about balance not equality. Negotiation is working within eachother's boundaries to get the most of what you want...it's about the win/win...and about all parties coming out of the situation happier. I agree and disagree at the same time. He compromised a lot in the beginning so he could have everything he wants now. If he demanded from me on day 1 that I submit to him as I do today, he would have either ruined me or he'd have seen me running for the hills. Such development takes time, and in that time he compromised many of his preferences so he wouldn't overwhelm me. This wasn't about equality - there was never equality in our relationship. It was about him laying out boundaries that were emotionally safe for me, and adjusting them as we moved forward. As for communication, I have always been required to tell him exactly what I am thinking and feeling, even if I think he won't like it. He can't correct what he doesn't know about. And he can't know how I'm affected by everything he does - big or small - if I don't communicate it. His greatest tool was listening - Listening and understanding. People forget that part of the communication process. This is pretty much the only way I would compromise in an Owner situation. Knowing that my compromises were temporary-but seeing that there were possibilities of doing away with them over time. I'd be living in a world of constant frustration otherwise.

BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:35:42 AM)
Why should he have to give those things up? Why can't you negotiate for him to have those things AND meet your needs? Negotiation is fluid...compromise is molding absolutes.

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:36:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist Knowing that my compromises were temporary-but seeing that there were possibilities of doing away with them over time. I'd be living in a world of constant frustration otherwise. I can certainly understand that. This is why I am so grateful for Mr. Wonderful's patience. :)

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:36:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I had someone tell me recently that we're all crazy. It's just about finding the right kind of crazy to match your own kind of crazy. And seriously...we should be negotiating the needs and wants and the compatability long before we're refering to eachother as Owner and owned now shouldn't we? I mean healthy people don't go head long into something without making sure they're going into it with the right person...who should communication and negotiation only happen when the relationship is already established...I mean doesn't make sense to do those TO establish the relationship? It's perfectly acceptable and needful to approach this as reasonable adults. But needs are not always reasonable. They just are.

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:38:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist Knowing that my compromises were temporary-but seeing that there were possibilities of doing away with them over time. I'd be living in a world of constant frustration otherwise. I can certainly understand that. This is why I am so grateful for Mr. Wonderful's patience. :) He obviously found the understanding to see something worth the effort in you. Patience can be a virtue, but only with the right subject. It's wasted time and effort otherwise.

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:40:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen Compromise is about immediately saying okay I can't get everything I want so....how much of it can I get?...negotiation is going into it with here's what I want...let's make it work Compromise is him putting on hold all the things he wants, knowing they will come in time. Negotiation is something he has never engaged in with me, and never will. Negotiation, in my opinion, is more about equality than compromise. I really hate negotiating. I pretty bluntly state, "This is where I am going-you can come along and help,or piss off."

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:41:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen Why should he have to give those things up? Why can't you negotiate for him to have those things AND meet your needs? Negotiation is fluid...compromise is molding absolutes. Because on Day 1 I was in no position to drink his urine, handle the level of pain I currently do, understand why he does some of the things he does and welcome them without insecurities, etc. I did not have the thought processes I do today or the emotional maturity I do today. I didn't have a lot of the skills I do today. 3 1/2 years ago I was a totally green submissive - one who he saw a lot of potential in. And since he believes in the concept of learning to crawl before walking, and walk before running, and run before marathoning, he was willing to be patient through the crawling stages before expecting the marathons he gets from me now. I totally disagree with the bolded statement above. We must be looking at this from really different angles. He negotiates nothing. He tells me his expectation and I strive to meet it. As I reach it, he raises the bar. The bar continues to be raised and even now, while he has said he gets more from me than he ever hoped from a slave, he raises the bar. He's a wonderfully selfish man, you know, so he always wants more. [;)]

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:42:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist He obviously found the understanding to see something worth the effort in you. Patience can be a virtue, but only with the right subject. It's wasted time and effort otherwise. One has to be willing to invest the energy to discover whether it's wasted or about to pay off greatly.

Leatherist -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:45:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist He obviously found the understanding to see something worth the effort in you. Patience can be a virtue, but only with the right subject. It's wasted time and effort otherwise. One has to be willing to invest the energy to discover whether it's wasted or about to pay off greatly. Agreed. But one can generally sense if the energy is right. Not everything we do in this is all about concious thought-a lot of it is going to rely on a primal reaction we have to someone.

BoiJen -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:46:06 AM)
Did he ask you to do those things on day 1? Did he wants you to do things on day 1? If not then there wasn't anything to negotiate in that manner. In the military and other structured enviroments the terms compromise is a bad thing. How ever when someone deals with something with a positive outcome it's called navigating or negotiating.

ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM101:communications is SO important...so who knows how to use a flogger? (2/28/2008 9:55:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen Did he ask you to do those things on day 1? Did he wants you to do things on day 1? If not then there wasn't anything to negotiate in that manner. No, but those are the things he wanted in a slave. There was nothing to negotiate because he doesn't negotiate with slaves. But he put his ultimate desires on hold to develop me to provide them. quote: In the military and other structured enviroments the terms compromise is a bad thing. How ever when someone deals with something with a positive outcome it's called navigating or negotiating. Define "structured environments", please. In all the executive groups I've worked with (and they're pretty damned structures), they have concluded that compromise and negotiating are good. But then in executive groups they are dealing with an equal, collaborative effort. Negotiating is two or more parties discussing the terms of the arrangement. There wasn't much discussion of terms with us. He stated what the terms would be, and I worked toward them because I wanted to meet them. When I met them, the terms were raised. He compromised his ultimate desires until I reached the level he most preferred. I think we're defining things differently.

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