RE: free woman????????????? (Full Version)

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Leatherist -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 3:52:27 PM)

Something that seems to confuse people about me is this.

Over the years I have seen, and tried to understand a huge variety of lifestyles and cultures that differ from so called "norms". And while I know that most won't work for me-I do see how others find attraction in them.

And if it works for them,what I think about it really means nada.

And I'm perfectly fine with that.




AquaticSub -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:14:38 PM)

There may not be stupid questions but there are certainly stupid/insulting ways to ask one. I'm not Gorean but I do think you asked your question in an insulting manner. If you replaced the parts of your post that deal with Gor with BDSM and asked "why don't submissives who do X, Y, and Z just admit to themselves that they are really slaves", I'd think that was insulting too. It basically saying that you know better than they do.




Leatherist -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:21:19 PM)

[;)]And we know how much Goreans like to be compared to bdsm.




MontrealPhoenix -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:25:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

You would get a more informed answer if you asked this on the gorean forum.  I have never had a problem when I have asked a question over there in the past.  Maybe the problem lays on how you ask your questions?
Why would you get flamed on the gorean forum for asking a simple question unless you have another motive behind it?  I am sure it is much easier to make an assumption and have a good laugh at the 'comical' goreans expense.  How very 'unique'.
 
the.dark.


I don't know, maybe it's because you're male and dominant but i've frequently seen a female who is not Gorean and asks a question be mobbed and generally flamed over there.  I don't blame the OP for being reluctant to post there, i wouldn't either.
 
Phoenix




colouredin -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:28:17 PM)

I posted there today and I was fine, also it tends to be .the.dark posting who is a fem sub. Actually having read some posts of the op's on the Gorean board I kinda understand why she would feel concerned about being flamed. 




Stephann -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:34:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

For what it's worth, in practical terms many real life Goreans have children with their slaves.  The distinction in real life (vice a discussion about fantasy characters) has more to do with the type of D/s relationship a man has with his woman.  It's a tricky discussion, that has a lot in common with the sub vs. slave debate.

Stephan



One word I seldom hear with Gor, and nobody barf, please... but what about LOVE? Please explain to me why people have children with their slaves "for practical reasons"? Is it a last resort? Is it "impractical" to procreate with "free women"?



Many Goreans truly and dearly love their slaves.  I don't think a Gorean would even be with a free woman he didn't love.

The books discuss love often, and the author clearly believes that men should love with all of their being, not just in parts and parcels.  The male characters often weep and laugh and sing and cry.

Yet something unique about Gor (and Some forms of non-Gorean M/s) is that love is not an obligatory component in the relationship.  Not every man or woman is capable or desires 'true love.'  Yet they still have needs for companionship, care, contact, and friendship. 

So love plays a very important role.  Yet as it's a male dominated ethos, it's not given any more importance than the Master/slave relationships that are often found within the ethos.

I love my slave.  I wouldn't keep her if I didn't.  But I don't keep her only because I love her.  I think this is a topic for another thread, though.

Stephan





Leatherist -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:47:36 PM)

One that I think I will kick off seperately. How emotions differ has always fascinated me.




bipolarber -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:49:59 PM)

I keep hearing the line that Norman based his novels on historical concepts gleaned from ancient civilizations... but you know, I've never once seen an essay (either in print, or online) or a listing of just exactly which societies he "borrowed" from. Would anyone care to enlighten me?

Or is it all just a bullshit marketing slogan?




MRandme -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 4:56:31 PM)

i got trashed on there... i'm "just a slave" who shouldn't "judge her betters" by expecting them to act like adults. Oh, and this was right after i was told i wasn't a "true slave".  Long about then, i decided to it was about as fun to hang out there as in a pool of piranha.

my views don't match theirs. 'Nuff said.

g




AquaticSub -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 5:49:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MontrealPhoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark


the.dark.


I don't know, maybe it's because you're male and dominant but i've frequently seen a female who is not Gorean and asks a question be mobbed and generally flamed over there.  I don't blame the OP for being reluctant to post there, i wouldn't either.
 
Phoenix


dark is female and submissive (forgive me if that's not the term you prefer dark). Darcy is the male half.

I've ventured into the Gorean forums a few times and I've talked with a few Gorean men, Aswad in particular holds my respect. It is my impression from my limited experience that as long as one takes care to be respectful, most will do their best to respectful in return.




xxblushesxx -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 6:02:25 PM)

I know why the OP posted her question here and not there.
Just today, I had a discussion with them about how they treat outsiders who ask legitimate and honest questions of them.
I'm sorry, but the answers I normally get when I step 'foot' in the Gor room are rude and unsympathetic to any ideas except their own.
Perhaps if they were more open to others' questions, we wouldn't have to ask them here.




Stephann -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 6:15:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

I keep hearing the line that Norman based his novels on historical concepts gleaned from ancient civilizations... but you know, I've never once seen an essay (either in print, or online) or a listing of just exactly which societies he "borrowed" from. Would anyone care to enlighten me?

Or is it all just a bullshit marketing slogan?


There's a thread on this over in the Gorean section somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it.

Off the top of my head, the main body of Gor is based on Greco-Roman culture; the largest city of Ar is based on Rome, the concepts of homestones derive at least indirectly from the Greek City-State political system (states growing up around major cities.)  Many of the weapons used are traditional Roman weapons bearing the same name, such as the gladius and the sling.  Other cultural influences would be Native Americans represented by the Red Savages, a group similar to Roma People (Gypsies) in the form of Wagon People, and noticably the Torvaldslanders who draw heavily from Viking history, even including some of their basic religious beliefs, and the only group who actually practice an organize religion independent of the fictional Priest Kings.

Essays abound in Gorean circles, as this tends to be a very popular topic amongst them.  Anyone who reads even one book is bound to see such historical similarities.

Stephan




AquaticSub -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 6:17:32 PM)

So far, when I see people asking questions about Gor, it's done with slanted and biased language. The behavior of the Goreans who have answered on this thread has been respectful. I won't judge them all by some sour apples.




sassysexygirl -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 6:31:32 PM)

FR ~~

greetings to A/all

Leatherist ~~ it was a pleasure reading Your posts.  You seem to have a good grasp of the fundamentals of being Gorean and i, for one, appreciated the way You simply spoke of Your knowledge without otherwise being derogatory.  thank You :)

quote:

Just as many Goreans I have spoken to have done to people who identify with BDSM, I have recently been reading various things about Gor and I really think my ideas have been coloured by others opinions which is why today I have asked people on the Gorean board for advice on where to start. Most were very nice,

I had a few messages in which the referal to people liking BDSM was less than positive, I think its sad that there needs to be this huge divide but I am not all together sure who it is that creates it, possibly it is ignorance about Gor is (though I have heard a lot of things from 'Goreans' that match with the whole women are beneath men theory)

ANYONE who thinks their way is the 'True' way, be that D/s M/s Gorean etc etc is a pile of crap. Each way is true to the person who practices it, this is something I have seen from many differant people but a lot of Goreans that I have met do have a special kind of arrogance that goes along with the idea that there are set principles. (Of course this is not always the case, I have met some very laid back Goreans too)

It is sad that anyone would feel that they are likely to be attacked for asking a question, especially when in the same breath as saying people should do more research they also complain about misinformation, well you are more likely to get the correct infomation from people who live the life rather than some random unsourced website.

Thankyou to Kimveri too for your articulate post.


colouredin ~~ the way you phrased your question was well received on the Gorean Board.  *smiles* i remember you well.  it's about knowing your place and acting accordingly is all.  i am slave, i am that way on the Board.  the Free, be they Man or Woman, are according to their place in the community.  in bdsm-related terms, they are Dominant and expect to be treated respectfully by subs/slaves.  i simply wanted to say thank you for coming to the Gorean section with an open mind, and speaking as a submissive and not as a Dominant (thereby being accepted as who you are).

as to the OP, there is a thread on the Gorean section entitled "slaves thread: support and girlie time ..."  might i suggest you post this question there?  Free Women read that thread and on the Gorean Boards is where You will find Your best answers.  if i may suggest, however, simply post Your questions respectfully.

well wishes to A/all
gemmie




LaTigresse -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 6:36:29 PM)

Using fast reply.......

I will be the first to admit that I had a really bad attitude about the whole gorean thing when I first started reading the forums here. I was pretty full of myself and leaning heavily towards the whole female supremacy thing.

THEN, after spending some time reading and learning different posters I had a shift back towards the middle. You name the gender and dynamic and I could (but won't) toss a name or two out that I think is a perfect example of a putz. On the flip side, of each of those types, I could also name quite a few that I think are pretty cool human beings.

Sure I know, as I always have, that the gorean thing is not my thing. No surprise there. But neither is female supremacy. Having the good or bad, depending on your point of view, fortune of being born male or female, dominant or submissive, doesn't make you an admirable human being.

I will be the first to admit that some of the people on here I respect most are submissives or slaves. Some are dominant men. So on and so forth. Annnnd, for the most part, I've learned to ignore the posturing and other poor behaviour. I just write it off as ignorance, insecurity or both. Regardless of who is doing it.




auniquegift -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 6:57:55 PM)

i asked a question...it might not of been worded the way most would of liked it.
for that i apologise.

but i will say.....i have talked to alot of male/female dominants ..(.in the bdsm not gorean.)....asked questions...
not in the forums ..but through mail...and i can say all have replied with straight forward answers.
they are not condesending...but when they answer they are talking to you not down on you.
that is someone you can and would show respect to.

so if any has been insulted  by what i have asked or the way i asked it...
once again i apologise....
a unique gift









Gwynvyd -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 6:58:29 PM)

Personaly I never have had sour apples when dipping my toe in thier pool.. I was trying to understand a concept once.. and the way one had answered my question I didnt understand and I got my shit jumped full force. I feel like I am now a full fledged member of CM now. *smiles* I still read further in the thread with out commenting so maybe my actual question would get answered and it did. I didnt feel the need to say anything further. What would it accomplish?

Some times I see some very thought provoking threads in there scroll aross the Marquee.. and when I click on them and see they are in the Gorean forum I just basicaly say "well fuck" and back out and find something else to read and comment on. There are some Goreans I know who do not discount all Dommes or non Gorean women.. but by steping into there I know I am opening myself up to a world of shit at times. ( and yes I have always been respectful ) some female subs are more welcome in there. Aquatic fits in and is welcomed. I have read her posts there.


I can understand how some of us feel like Jessie Jackson who stumbled into a club meeting of David Duke and his buddies. LOL

I have one special Gorean male in my life as a very good friend. I have nothing against any one who is Gorean. The mob mentality some times gets to be a bit much of  "you have a question so you are challanging our way of life"  on some of the online message boards.

When folks ask me why I am into poly or spiritual D/s I do not see it as a challange.. I see it as simply a question. Even if it is about my sexuality. ( I have had lots try to convert me with thier 9 in tools of "conversion" *chuckles* )

I have not read the full of this thread.. but I understand why folks post questions out here about Gorean things.. and not in thier forums.

The best thing I can suggest is if you have questions is read the books. Then ask questions if you know a Gorean personaly. I like asking groups of people... not everyone will have the same answer. But sometimes the touchieness of a group just doesnt make the knowledge worth while. I think that is sad.

Thank you to those who do answer with an open heart and mind.  

All knowledge is good to have.

Gwyn




amelliagrace -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 7:12:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Trust me, from what I've seen when lurking over there it is a mistake to ask a question.  It's probably better to preface it with "after googling for one month and reading everything I can about Goreans I have this question: _____________________"  At least that way they won't accuse you of being lazy.


For whatever reasons, I don't have any trouble when I ask questions on the Gorean board.
 
That said, they can be a tough group...but asking a question need not generate a flame war.  Much depends on your approach.  JMO.
 
Grace




amelliagrace -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 7:18:54 PM)

FR -
This is a post I wrote about this topic, on a thread in the Gorean forum.  I'll paste it here, for those of yo who'd rather not go over there to read it.
 
I see few differences between a GFW and a non-GFW.  The differences, IMO, are limited to the specific applications of gorean philosophy to the specifics of day to day life.  Each must guard their freedom, each must at times fight to hold it, against individuals at times, but more often than not from societal norms and government incursion.
 
The FW is introspective, and mindful of her place in the scheme of things.  Being so, she is aware of the internal dynamics of self, and seeks to master herself.  It is not necessary for her to be perfect in this, for being human, it ain'tagonna happen.  It is imperative, however, that she make ongoing effort in this area.  To do otherwise would be to become something less than a true Free Person in mind, heart, and spirit.  Being individuals, not all FWs will progress or excel at the same rate in the many areas of self they seek to master.
 
The FW, by very nature of being a more self determining individual, seeks a different relationship with men than a slave would.  The relationship dynamics will, of course, vary from relationship to relationship.  Some will choose to be more independent, some less so.  Some will insist on more of an equitable partnership than others.  She will seek a mate who is her perfect balance.  As is the nature of humans - and yes, this includes men [;)] - they will tend to only defer to those they consider to be stronger or more dominant than themselves.  Oh, they may be polite and courteous, but when you come down to brass tacks and specific situations, the FW makes consessions only to those she deems worthy, or of superior ability in the circumstance at hand, or because it is otherwise to her advantage - but always it is a conscious choice.  Most people, men and women alike, she will consider to be comparable in value to herself, or less, rather than superior.
 
She may choose to be a slave in the bedroom - or not.  She may choose to be the generally subordinate partner in a marriage or SO relationship - or not.  She will tend to prefer no intimate relationship at all to one with someone who is not strong enough, talented enough, soul mate enough, to inspire her to follow.  Though she may well follow, and also follow well, there are always, for the FW, lines in the sand of heart and mind that she will not cross for anyone.
 
She can, and frequently will, give subordination and cooperation to another, but it is given - not taken.  Try to take it and the FW will usually knock the crap out of you, either figuratively or literally.
 
The FW, like the FM, can be angelic or a holy terror.  There are gracious individuals among them, but so also are there assholes.
 
The FW, while aware of her nature, and often just as comfortable with it as an FM may be with his own, she is also aware that society has different rule books for FW than for FM.  There will be many times when she will swim against the tide of societal opinion, or suffer setback, inconvenience, or other not-so-fun things, rather than give into arbitrary double standards......unless she happens to think it is one that is legitimate.
 
An FW and slave may share much, by virtue of both being female.  Each can be true to thier nature, and still be quite different from each other in the ways they seek to embrace their nature.
 
The tongue of an FW can be soft or sharp, harsh or healing.  The one thing it will not be is bridled.  Just like FM, the FW may be wise in this, or a damned fool.
 
When the right man comes along, the FW can sometimes be submissive enough to almost look like a slave, to a person outside that relationship.  But ask that man, and that woman about it, and they will tell you right quickly that it ain't so.
 
Like a FM, a FW will fight tooth and nail to hold her inner freedom, at the personhood level.  She will also loathe the political errosion of her freedoms - or any other type of empingement, for that matter.  Chain her, and she will not become enslaved, but merely held captive.  (Vast difference between "enslaved" and "held captive".)  She will seek for freedom without ceasing.  She will rebel, in ways large and small.  She will not go quietly into the night, so to speak.  For her, slavery is not the path to freedom, as it is for those who are slave at heart.  If she can be enslaved, then she was not truly FW to begin with, but slave hearted and unowned, or has temporarily lost her ability to exist as a self determining individual due to trauma.
 
Sometimes, as with Jason in the Gor books, enslavement will serve as a crucible from which an Free Person emerges.
 
The FW unashamedly seeks to be true to her nature, her femininity, and to hold her freedom, too.  She is about as keen on sacrificing the one to hold the other as a FM would be, were he asked to choose between the two.
 
She isn't perfect.  She isn't always nice.  She strives to improve, and to be more today than yesterday, and still more tomorrow.  She tends to expect more of herself than others do.  She doesn't suffer fools gladdly, though she may be compassionate hearted.
 
She is what she is.  Some men don't get it.  Some of them don't like it.  The same can be said for those of her own sex.  The FW tends to think that is their problem, and not hers.
 
Frequently the FW finds herself a bit perplexed, with regard to FM.  Many times this stems from the fact that many FW hold that it is the very strongest and best of men who can compel an FW to follow along life's path with them as helper, friend, mate, lover, partner....and so they can become perplexed at why such strong and fine men wouldn't see the value in making the effort to develope a strong and long term relationship with an FW.
 
There are a number of situations in life that muddy the waters in the discussion of what is and is not "FW".  One of them being the couples which present themselves in public as Master and slave (for multiple reasons) but in the day to day of their lives together are actually Companions.  If you think this doesn't happen, think again.
 
And there you have my NSHO.
 
Regards-
Grace




Gwynvyd -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/20/2008 10:23:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Yes it is,and extremely old stereotype-from days before birth control. Men liked to know that thier children were thiers-back in days when inheritance really mattered.





An old stereotype we are, hopefully, moving away from, hmmmm? You know... some women strived to get away from such bullshit for centuries: this is why many became nuns, actually... And I think I'd rather be a nun than live on Gor.

But that's because I'm really, really bent [8D] .


Damn it woman where are my sexy nun picts!

You *had* to know that was comming...

The poor bastards wouldnt know what hit them if my big amazon ass got dropped off there.... *chuckles* I can tell ya know Large bands of wild women would get trained... and that whole pussy "Panther Girls" crap of oh we dont want it but once captured we give into crap.. yeah no.

They have thier planet.. I have mine. All are happy. *smiles*

Gwyn,
Not for a Female or Male supremist of any kind... and very glad it is more equitable.




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