RE: free woman????????????? (Full Version)

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CountrySong -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:24:06 AM)

FOr me a person is more respectfull when they just tell me their opinion with out killing me.

It's been a long time (25 year) since I read those books but wasn't a common response to a difference of opinion some sort of duel to the death? If so why shouldn't they kill you it's part of their lifestyle. LOL

To the ladies who have been insulted or attacked - As my dad once said don't expect a live polar bear to act like a teddy bear. Go read the books and understand the headspace they are coming from. From what I remember the Gor lifestyle was seemingly based on respect and codes of honor but if you go to the very core it was based on one thing - violence. The shear physical strength of a man and that man ability to kill and survive.

I'm in the SCA and we have all those romantic notions of knights and ladies. But if you really go look at the history most of the real knights would be classified as rapists and ciminals by todays standards. Heck not to long ago BDSMers where being treated as mentally ill and if you look at what we actually do a lot of it has to do with violence against another human even if it is consentual!

Stick your hand in a bees nest. Expect to get stung! Just my two cents.



Aswad -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:28:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I've ventured into the Gorean forums a few times and I've talked with a few Gorean men, Aswad in particular holds my respect. It is my impression from my limited experience that as long as one takes care to be respectful, most will do their best to respectful in return.


Thank you for the compliment; it is appreciated.

I have also observed that things tend to flow pretty smoothly as long as one is respectful; a simple reciprocation between parties that do not know each other yet (compare and contrast the advice for travellers in the Hávamál from the Eddas, or the PIE word *ghosti-, from which is derived the Latin hostis, and the English words guest and host, and the older notions of hospitality, which depends on the behavior of both parties; the word *ghosti- actually denotes a particular obligation between two parties).

But it definitely depends on the behaviour of the visitor, with the notable exception of "What is Gor?"

That question is one people are tired of, especially since it takes a few hundred pages to explain, and less time to Google it or read the archives (most of which are of debates that deal with exactly that question, which has been about as much resolved as the question of "What is Christianity?"- one that the Catholics spent a good one-to-two thousand years trying to resolve for their particular brand of it).

Anyway, if anyone has questions they're honestly curious about, and not getting answered, my inbox is open.

I can't, and won't, pretend to speak for everyone, but I can give it my best shot at a good answer.

Health,
al-Aswad.



kittinSol -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:29:06 AM)

I understand Aswad's desire to defend Gor - but I think many on this thread are venting a little, safe as we are from the wrath of some of the Gor people - not everyone over there is as open minded as he is.

If I go on a Gor thread and argue that women are NOT naturally submissive, I think we both know what will happen (even if I take a year's worth of classes on diplomacy, which I admit isn't my strong point).

One of the troubles I have with Gor is the rigidity of its thinking: heretics who deviate even slightly from Norman's fantasy are given regular dressing downs; and submissives (male or female) really have no voice, as Gor is such a society of extremes (either slave or master, but nothing in between).

Just my impression of things.



colouredin -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:31:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If I go on a Gor thread and argue that women are NOT naturally submissive, I think we both know what will happen (even if I take a year's worth of classes on diplomacy, which I admit isn't my strong point).


And there inlies my fundemental problem with many, I dont like the idea that women are naturally submissive, firstly im special :P and secondly its a pile of bollocks, but its the problem with anyone who has a dogmatic belief, you will always offend someone.



Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:32:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
either slave or master, but nothing in between


quote:

free woman?????????????


;)





kittinSol -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:38:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
either slave or master, but nothing in between


quote:

free woman?????????????


;)





I get the theory; I seldom see it in practice though.

;-p



colouredin -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:40:29 AM)

Thats it though, From what I have read, and my general understanding of it, its not meant to be about gender but about strength to be a Free Woman you have to proove your strength same to be a Free Man but that women are naturally weaker than men but from what I have seen many simply believe that all women are weak (not weaker just simply weak) 



Aswad -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:41:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I would suggest that it depends on your definition of BDSM


B/D, D/s, S/M, primarily.

quote:

but as Gorean is a belief structure or philosophy then its slightly differant, and possibly explains the seriousness in which they take it and also how some view people who identify with BDSM as 'less' than they are.


It explains why we take it seriously (most in the West take being moral as a serious thing, for instance; so do we).

But it does not explain how some from our "camp" come down on BDSM... prejudice explains that.

A lot of Goreans do practice BDSM, and many were exposed to it through that.

However, you can be a Gorean without a life partner or a slave.

quote:

However BDSM isnt in my mind simply a term for activities.


Of course not. It can encompass lifestyle choices (e.g. D/s), activities, orientation and convictions (e.g. SSC, RACK).

But can it be the entirety of your life, so to speak, a guide to live by in all things?

Health,
al-Aswad.



kittinSol -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:41:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

dogmatic belief, you will always offend someone.



Dogma, that's the word I was looking for - it seems to be set in stone, on Gor. 



colouredin -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:49:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

But can it be the entirety of your life, so to speak, a guide to live by in all things?



Many things can, I would say that my oriantation affects most parts of me and the reason I am submissive is due to how I see the world and live my life, I think it is all interlinked. It doesnt give me a prescribed list of rules no, and it doesnt mean that all submissives act the same, however my awareness of my submission has totally changed the way I view the world and my activites within it, also my exposure to other peoples views within BDSM has given me far more understanding in nilla life of other people. The differance as I see it is that Gorean ideiology is just that an Ideology, its based (as all ideologies are) on general thories and generalisations, this is something that I find counter productive and always have done.

Where my lifestyle has opened me up to differant ways of thinking and made me far less judgemental of the way that others do what they do whereas the Gorean world seems to thrive on protocol and all that stuff which is in its nature alianating. I am not claiming to be an expert here and I am not insulting your lifestyle at all I am just saying that it wouldnt work for me.




kittinSol -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:49:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

but as Gorean is a belief structure or philosophy then its slightly differant, and possibly explains the seriousness in which they take it and also how some view people who identify with BDSM as 'less' than they are.


It explains why we take it seriously (most in the West take being moral as a serious thing, for instance; so do we).



Aswad - do you think Gor is so much loved because it offers a readymade dish of set beliefs and thinking? Not trying to be inflammatory here - I'm touching on something more general than just Gor, and could be talking about any book that's considered to be holding some kind of universal truth.

Don't you think this "free women" is a bit of a plot copout for Norman? His fantasy world couldn't have existed with just slaves, so he had to make some kind of provision for breeders?

PS: colouredin, I very much liked your post above. Your self-description rang true to me too.



colouredin -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:51:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Don't you think this "free women" is a bit of a plot copout for Norman? His fantasy world couldn't have existed with just slaves, so he had to make some kind of provision for breeders?



I thought that Norman has said that it was NOT intended to be lived as reality? that it was a fictional book? or did I get that wrong?



Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:51:35 AM)

"dogma" is used by many groups, religions...that is why they form a group.... People thinking alike
In those groups there are always softer people and hardliners

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

quote:


I get the theory; I seldom see it in practice though.

;-p

THere are IRC goreans, perhaps they have many of them. They role play the lifestyle. I never met a "free woman"either, but some one posting earlier mentioned some one..if I am correct.

quote:

I thought that Norman has said that it was NOT intended to be lived as reality? that it was a fictional book? or did I get that wrong?


he just wrote books, he didn't say a thing besides the words in his books.
(Gor doesn't excist as planet....so we can't even live like it...but we can be attracted to the idea's. It is often said it was written as opposition to the feminist, who tried to make females.. male like)





kittinSol -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:52:21 AM)

I'm not sure what he said or didn't say, colouredin, but I do know this: people talk about events on Gor as if they had really occurred.



Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:54:48 AM)

the sea didn't open to mozes either propably ;) (or was it some one else)
but I saw HArry Potter doing an interview


btw..the books are not an easy set of rules. It gives space for questions.
People who read give different views on it. Some like the strictness...and strict hierarchy...other just want females to be less and serve.
As in BDSM..some want to beat the shit out of females...and some want to care about a female.





colouredin -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:56:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I'm not sure what he said or didn't say, colouredin, but I do know this: people talk about events on Gor as if they had really occurred.


oh well, I dunno. *shrug*

lol Justme :P his name is Danial



Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 7:02:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

lol Justme :P his name is Danial



o.k.... lol..I guess his name was wrong on the dvd cover then




But about the books...the Gorean ones. Even though females are treated..perhaps..harsh...there is to me..always a love story involved.
The MAster ignoring the girl..telling her she is useless..the female rejecting slavery...but in the end.....they live happily together..both in their role as Ms.
It is hard to read..but.....perhaps if you have time on your hands read one (kajira of Gor /slavegirl of Gor are not so bad).





kittinSol -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 7:04:36 AM)

Indeed, why not use a work of fiction like the Bible or the Gor novels to base your philosophy of life on? But note how people will talk about fictional events as if they had taken place in real life; the author is seldom referred to, which makes the fiction take on the quality of a myth or legend; and eventually, people become "believers" - and belief is far remote from philosophy.




OmegaG -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 7:04:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

I keep hearing the line that Norman based his novels on historical concepts gleaned from ancient civilizations... but you know, I've never once seen an essay (either in print, or online) or a listing of just exactly which societies he "borrowed" from. Would anyone care to enlighten me?

Or is it all just a bullshit marketing slogan?


There's a thread on this over in the Gorean section somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it.

Off the top of my head, the main body of Gor is based on Greco-Roman culture; the largest city of Ar is based on Rome, the concepts of homestones derive at least indirectly from the Greek City-State political system (states growing up around major cities.)  Many of the weapons used are traditional Roman weapons bearing the same name, such as the gladius and the sling.  Other cultural influences would be Native Americans represented by the Red Savages, a group similar to Roma People (Gypsies) in the form of Wagon People, and noticably the Torvaldslanders who draw heavily from Viking history, even including some of their basic religious beliefs, and the only group who actually practice an organize religion independent of the fictional Priest Kings.

Essays abound in Gorean circles, as this tends to be a very popular topic amongst them.  Anyone who reads even one book is bound to see such historical similarities.

Stephan


 
I haven't read all the books but I did notice that at one point he described the making of paper which was almost point for point with how the Egyptians made papyrus.  In another book the ships he describes sounded much like Greek Tri-reams, and in another they were more Viking in flavor.
 
when I mentioned this to m'Lord (we are both history geeks) he said that he'd read somewhere that Norman had an interest in ancient history and would often insert some tid-bit, usually about something he'd just learned more about.



beargonewild -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 7:08:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I'm not sure what he said or didn't say, colouredin, but I do know this: people talk about events on Gor as if they had really occurred.


If I may interject here, granted John Norman probably didn't want people to take his concept of another world as gospel. Yet from the few books I own and read, it seems that there are a vast group who felt a deep connection with much of the tenants and strictures of the Gorean mindset. I interpret this to a set of codes, ones that many of us don't fully understand, yet for the Goreans, they value these enough to live their lives around the Gorean way of living.  With my limited understanding of Gor, I see the Free Women as a distinct and unique group of women who are not slave yet they aren't completely free either. Granted they have more rights and freedoms than a kajira yet it appears that their position could change in a blink.

As I stated, my knowledge is based upon the few books I read and as I read more, I hope gain a better insight. And if my perception is skewed, then I know it will be pointed out! As a side note, that is the main reason I have yet to post in the Gor threads, solely due to my lack of knowledge not wanting to offend anyone who is more knowledgeable then I.



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